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  • #16
    --In terms of quality of play Chance was better than Mattingly and Hernandez - who in turn were clearly better than Grace (Grace is out of place in that grouping). His OPS+ is significantly higher, it is OBP heavy and he was a terrific baserunner. It is ONLY his lack of lingevity and not any lack of quality that brings Chance's worthiness as a player into question.
    --Part of his lack of playing time as due to his own durabilty issues (much of which came from his willingness to take a HBP). Alot of it was due to his concentrating on his managing career though. At that time managing paid better than playing - and obviously gave the possibility of a much longer career. John McGraw made much the same decison, although his managerial career was obviously muich more significant as he was able to continue and be successfull long after his playing career was over.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by leecemark View Post
      --In terms of quality of play Chance was better than Mattingly and Hernandez - who in turn were clearly better than Grace (Grace is out of place in that grouping). His OPS+ is significantly higher, it is OBP heavy and he was a terrific baserunner. It is ONLY his lack of lingevity and not any lack of quality that brings Chance's worthiness as a player into question.
      --Part of his lack of playing time as due to his own durabilty issues (much of which came from his willingness to take a HBP). Alot of it was due to his concentrating on his managing career though. At that time managing paid better than playing - and obviously gave the possibility of a much longer career. John McGraw made much the same decison, although his managerial career was obviously muich more significant as he was able to continue and be successfull long after his playing career was over.
      From '79-'86 Hernandez played about as many games as Chance did in his career and Hernandez had about a 139 OPS+ for that span (about 1200 games I think).

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      • #18
        Originally posted by brett View Post
        From '79-'86 Hernandez played about as many games as Chance did in his career and Hernandez had about a 139 OPS+ for that span (about 1200 games I think).
        Code:
          Player            OPS+   G   OBP   SLG    PA  From  To
        -+-----------------+----+----+-----+-----+-----+----+----+
          Keith Hernandez    139 1194  .403  .456  5150 1979 1986 
          Frank Chance       135 1287  .394  .394  5099 1898 1914 
          Don Mattingly      136 1171  .362  .497  5178 1984 1991
        Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

        Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Freakshow View Post
          Code:
            Player            OPS+   G   OBP   SLG    PA  From  To
          -+-----------------+----+----+-----+-----+-----+----+----+
            Keith Hernandez    139 1194  .403  .456  5150 1979 1986 
            Frank Chance       135 1287  .394  .394  5099 1898 1914 
            Don Mattingly      136 1171  .362  .497  5178 1984 1991
          That pretty much makes the case for Chance. Keith should be in the Hall, and Chances baserunning and managing at least equal's Keith's defense and additional longevity IMO.

          And Mattingly would be a deserving HoFer if he had been a player-manager with Chance's success and been a great baserunner.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by mwiggins View Post

            And Mattingly would be a deserving HoFer if he had been a player-manager with Chance's success and been a great baserunner.
            So Mattingly was a victim of playing when he did? How many others can we make that statement about. If only one player did what a HOFer did . . .
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            • #21
              Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
              So Mattingly was a victim of playing when he did? How many others can we make that statement about. If only one player did what a HOFer did . . .
              No, I didn't say he was a victim of anything.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by mwiggins View Post
                No, I didn't say he was a victim of anything.
                Right, but what exactly do you mean about Mattingly? if he were Chance, he'd be a Hall of famer? It just strikes me as odd. If Mattingly had Chance's resume he'd be in? Add Chance's skills to what Mattingly already was dong and he'd be in?

                Just a little confused.
                Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
                  Right, but what exactly do you mean about Mattingly? if he were Chance, he'd be a Hall of famer? It just strikes me as odd. If Mattingly had Chance's resume he'd be in? Add Chance's skills to what Mattingly already was dong and he'd be in?

                  Just a little confused.
                  I meant that Chance was fairly comparable to Mattingly with the bat. And since Mattingly's obviously not a HoFer, so that doesn't seem to do much for Chance's case.

                  But, if Mattingly had hit like he did, while also managing the best team of his era to multiple pennants and World Series championships, and if been a great baserunner, he would be a very deserving candidate. And that essentially describes Chance. Chance does have those items on his resume, in addition to his hitting.

                  So that fact that Chance was really no better than Mattingly with the bat doesn't hurt his case, IMO. That's what I was trying to say.

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                  • #24
                    It was a close call between options "C" and "D" here. Clearly, his exploits as either a player or manager don't make it to HOF status, but combined, it's very close. I went with "yes," but clearly, his double play teammates, Evers and Tinkers, don't belong in the hall in my opinion.
                    Last edited by NineWorldSeries; 04-11-2009, 08:05 AM.
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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by NineWorldSeries View Post
                      It was a close call between options "C" and "D" here. Clearly, his exploits as either a player or manager don't make it to HOF status, but combined, it's very close. I went with "yes," but clearly, his double play teammates, Evers and Tinkers, clearly don't belong in the hall in my opinion.
                      Evers belongs, IMO; he was a remakable defensive second baseman who put his share of runs on the scoreboard.

                      Tinker isn't the worst SS in the HOF, but he's a stretch.

                      Chance wasn't just a player AND a manager; he was a PLAYER-MANAGER. This is a lost concept; the last player-manager was Pete Rose. Before that, it was Don Kessinger, and before that, it was Frank Robinson. Kessinger was the only guy who was selected in mid-career; the others were superstars at the end who got the positions because their teams were down on their luck and they needed a shakeup in the press as well as in the dugout.

                      And Chance was the player-manager of a truly great team; the first NL "dynasty". He is the most unique selection of any HOFer, when you look at him in that light. He's not like Gil Hodges, who can't stand on his own both ways, but who MIGHT add up to a HOFer both ways (in some eyes). He was a player-manager, who led his team to greatness, on the field and in the dugout. If there is a more "unique" HOFer, I can't think of it.
                      "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

                      NL President Ford Frick, 1947

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear View Post
                        Chance was the player-manager of a truly great team; the first NL "dynasty".
                        Boston won in 1877-78 after winning 1872-75 in the NAPBBP, six in seven seasons. That one may be called inherited.
                        Chicago won in 1880-82 and 1885-86, five in seven years, certainly a homegrown dynasty.
                        Boston won in 1891-93 and 1897-98, five in eight years.

                        Chicago hired manager Frank Selee when Boston let him go after the 1901 season. The Cubs to be had finished 10 and 33 wins below .500 in 1900 and 1901. Before he was elected to the Hall of Fame (1999), his success building the Chicago champions was an important section two on Selee's resume. He left in poor health midway through the 1905 season, having finished one below, 16 above, and 33 wins above .500 in three full seasons.

                        --
                        Selee inherited Chance and Kling. He assembled Tinker and Evers (two-thirds of the trio of bearcubs), Slagle and Schulte (two-thirds of the S outfield), and pitchers Brown, Reulbach, Lundgren, Weimer, Wicker, and Briggs.

                        Under Chance, two deals with Cincinnati brought of Sebring and 3b Steinfeldt for p Weimer and pitcher Overall plus $2000 for p Wicker. One deal with Brooklyn brought of Sheckard for p Briggs, 3b Casey, of Maloney, Jack McCarthy, and $2000.
                        Sometime during 1905 they(Chance?) purchased p Jack Pfiester from the minors and during 1906 they picked up over-the-hill Jack Taylor for half of a good season.
                        That was good work. Probably it would benefit from a clever layout.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Paul Wendt View Post
                          Boston won in 1877-78 after winning 1872-75 in the NAPBBP, six in seven seasons. That one may be called inherited.
                          Chicago won in 1880-82 and 1885-86, five in seven years, certainly a homegrown dynasty.
                          Boston won in 1891-93 and 1897-98, five in eight years.

                          Chicago hired manager Frank Selee when Boston let him go after the 1901 season. The Cubs to be had finished 10 and 33 wins below .500 in 1900 and 1901. Before he was elected to the Hall of Fame (1999), his success building the Chicago champions was an important section two on Selee's resume. He left in poor health midway through the 1905 season, having finished one below, 16 above, and 33 wins above .500 in three full seasons.

                          --
                          Selee inherited Chance and Kling. He assembled Tinker and Evers (two-thirds of the trio of bearcubs), Slagle and Schulte (two-thirds of the S outfield), and pitchers Brown, Reulbach, Lundgren, Weimer, Wicker, and Briggs.

                          Under Chance, two deals with Cincinnati brought of Sebring and 3b Steinfeldt for p Weimer and pitcher Overall plus $2000 for p Wicker. One deal with Brooklyn brought of Sheckard for p Briggs, 3b Casey, of Maloney, Jack McCarthy, and $2000.
                          Sometime during 1905 they(Chance?) purchased p Jack Pfiester from the minors and during 1906 they picked up over-the-hill Jack Taylor for half of a good season.
                          That was good work. Probably it would benefit from a clever layout.
                          I should have qualified my statement; Chance's Cubs were the first NL dynasty in "modern" baseball history (if you define "modern" as 1901 on).
                          "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

                          NL President Ford Frick, 1947

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