Rank the Veteran's Committee candidates

[jalbright]

This is a simple exercise: rank the candidates for the Veteran's Committee 1-10 as a measure of who we think they should take first, second, and so forth. The voting will remain open until Saturday, December 1 at 7 am EST, at which point, I will publish the results, giving 10 points for 1st down to 1 point for 10th. The 10 candidates in question are:

Samuel Breadon
Bill Dahlen
Wes Ferrell
Marty Marion
Tony Mullane
Hank O’Day
Al Reach
Jacob Ruppert
Bucky Walters
Deacon White

There's been some discussion about them already in this thread: http://www.baseball-fever.com/showth...n-era-released

[jalbright]

Dahlen
Ferrell
White
Reach
Ruppert
Mullane
Walters
Braden
O'Day
Marion

[Cowtipper]

Bill Dahlen
Tony Mullane
Deacon White
Jacob Ruppert
Al Reach
Wes Ferrell
Bucky Walters
Marty Marion
Samuel Breadon
Hank O’Day

[chicagowhitesox1173]

1. Bill Dahlen
2. Tony Mullane
3. Bucky Walters
4. Wes Ferrell
5. Jacob Ruppert
6. Deacon White
7. Al Reach
8. Hank O'Day
9. Samuel Breadon
10. Marty Marion

[jjpm74]

1. Al Reach
2. Jacob Ruppert
3. Deacon White
4. Bill Dahlen
5. Wes Ferrell
----hof line-------
6. Bucky Walters
7. Hank O'Day
8. Tony Mullane
9. Samuel Breadon
10. Marty Marion

[dgarza]

1. Jacob Ruppert
2. Bill Dahlen
3. Deacon White
-------------------Should------------
4. Tony Mullane
5. Al Reach
-------------------
6. Bucky Walters
-------------------HOF Line----------
7. Samuel Breadon
8. Wes Ferrell
-------------------Will Tolerate-------
9. Hank O'Day
-------------------
-------------------
-------------------
10. Marty Marion

[Honus Wagner Rules]

How the heck did Marty Marion make it as a candidate?

[leecemark]

1) Deacon White
2) Bill Dahlen
3) Wes Ferrell
4) Jacob Ruppert
5) Al Reach
-------------
6) Tony Mullane
7) Bucky Walters
8) Sam Breaden
--------------
9) Hank O'Day
10) Marty Marion

[dgarza]

How the heck did Marty Marion make it as a candidate?

Yeah, I think his name sticks out like a sore thumb against the rest of the players' names.

OK, so in the last 7 straight years of his eligibility he garnered between 30%-40% of the vote each year. But so what? If elected, he would be the worst SS in the Hall. Actually, you know, he would be the worst IFer in the Hall. He would be the 2nd least deserving player to date.

Perhaps it's a sign that my own rankings need to be tweaked, but at the moment, I personally have Marion ranked in the same bracket as Juan Samuel.

[leecemark]

--I guess you had to be there? Good glove, no stick SS with a short career and his "peak", including his mystifying MVP award in a war depleted league. I don't see the attraction.

[chicagowhitesox1173]

I put him up too high. I just looked at his stats and although seems to have been a very respected player during his career having won a MVP and making several all-star teams, he really doesn't deserve to be on this list. I thought he missed time during WW2 but he played the whole time. This doesn't make sense how they leave Cecil Travis off who had a better career even though missing 4 years to the war. I don't see how you don't honor a guy like that.

[Cougar]

There's a Marty Marion thread (or two) somewhere, but I can't find it. Maybe someone better at searching than I can dig it up and bump it.

If you take contemporary opinion seriously at all, you've got to respect Marion. He was considered the best shortstop in the NL, and a linchpin of the Cardinal dynasty in the 1940s. His All-Star appearances and MVP prove this. His bat, while weak generally, was quite good for a shortstop of that era. His glove, by all accounts, was remarkably good.

He's on the borderline for me, but I felt he needed some defending in this thread...it was getting to be a pile-on.

[leecemark]

--Lou Boudreau, Luke Appling, Johnny Pesky, Vern Stephens, Pee Wee Reese and (sort of ) Joe Cronin and Cecil Travis were contemporary SS who were significantly better hitters so I'm not sure he was even a particularly good hitter for a SS. Rizzuto was a better hitter, also a very good glove man with a longer career and even more (alot more) championships and is generally considered a very borderline Hall of Famer. Marion WAS greatly respected while active and was perhaps the best defender of his day, but even Ozzie Smith's defense wouldn't have gotten him to the Hall had his career been as short as Marion's.

[dgarza]

There's a Marty Marion thread (or two) somewhere, but I can't find it. Maybe someone better at searching than I can dig it up and bump it.

This is all I could find (note sure if they're worth bumpinig) : http://www.baseball-fever.com/search...archid=2052887

If you take contemporary opinion seriously at all, you've got to respect Marion. He was considered the best shortstop in the NL, and a linchpin of the Cardinal dynasty in the 1940s. His All-Star appearances and MVP prove this. His bat, while weak generally, was quite good for a shortstop of that era. His glove, by all accounts, was remarkably good.

He's on the borderline for me, but I felt he needed some defending in this thread...it was getting to be a pile-on.

He probably was the best defensive SS of the 40s, but there are several '40s SS already in the Hall, so it's not like there's a shortage there (even though Vern Stephens is still missing, although deserving, so I'll include him).
In the NL, how was he viewed in comparison to Pee Wee Reese and Arky Vaughan?

                                                                                                            
Rk          Player WAR/pos OPS+ Rfield From   To   Age    G   R    H  2B 3B  HR RBI  BB SB CS   BA  OBP  SLG
1     Lou Boudreau    56.2  126    109 1940 1949 22-31 1425 758 1578 339 59  62 692 706 47 47 .300 .385 .422
2     Luke Appling    38.1  120     21 1940 1949 33-42 1188 613 1376 207 41  22 488 666 91 52 .312 .403 .392
3    Pee Wee Reese    32.3  102     73 1940 1949 21-30  987 609  981 153 35  52 408 581   108 .267 .369 .370
4    Vern Stephens    32.2  125    -12 1941 1949 20-28 1154 708 1290 205 31 177 824 495 19 15 .288 .360 .466
5     Marty Marion    29.0   83    126 1940 1949 22-31 1396 550 1310 251 35  30 565 407    34 .265 .323 .348
8     Arky Vaughan    19.5  123      5 1940 1948 28-36  668 419  690 125 34  25 295 297    52 .297 .379 .413
9     Phil Rizzuto    18.8   91     68 1941 1949 23-31  837 450  872 122 35  22 327 294 85 35 .275 .342 .357
12      Joe Cronin    10.2  131    -16 1940 1945 33-38  475 242  414  87 14  54 288 228  9 14 .291 .390 .486

[chicagowhitesox1173]

Heres Marion vs Travis

Marty Marion
1572games 5506atbats 602runs 1448hits 272doubles 37triples 36hr 624rbi 263avg 323obp 345slg 81ops+
Cecil Travis
1328games 4914atbats 665runs 1544hits 265doubles 78triples 27hr 657rbi 314avg 370obp 416slg 108ops+

I think Cecil Travis should get bigtime war credit too for missing 4 years of his career. His prime years too.