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  • #1

    Buck Showalter

    For his career, Buck Showalter is 60 games over .500. In that stretch, he has 2 first place finishes and 3 playoff appearances. Showalter was manager of the year in 1994 and 2004 and in all likelihood will be manager of the year again in 2012.

    Strictly on paper, Showalter comes up short (not enough wins, no championships). However, he has successfully turned around 3 of the 4 teams he has managed. He turned the Yankees into a dynasty (many forget that the Yankees were a joke for the 1980s and early 1990s). He took a 5th place expansion team and got them to 100 wins. He took an Orioles team that had not been relevant for over a decade and turned them into a playoff team with no big stars in the lineup.

    This is not a thread asking whether or not Showalter is a HOFer today. It is one that asks what he needs to do from here forward to build a HOF resume as he is one of the more intriguing managers in the game (no poll on this one).
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  • #2
    Showalter currently has the Gene Mauch type argument, and we can see how well it's worked for Mauch. He needs a WS ring and another pennant besides, I'd think, if not more of that type of accomplishment to get into the Hall.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by jalbright View Post
      Showalter currently has the Gene Mauch type argument, and we can see how well it's worked for Mauch. He needs a WS ring and another pennant besides, I'd think, if not more of that type of accomplishment to get into the Hall.
      Showalter would need something like what jalbright says. It would help if he stays with Baltimore a long time and has a run of playoff appearances as well. If this is his high-water mark for his stay in Baltimore, that would not be good.
      "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

      NL President Ford Frick, 1947

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      • #4
        It seems like a lot of very solid, but not stupendous, managers have passed through the ranks these past 15 years. Buck Showalter is one of those guys. He has over 1,100 wins, a .515 winning percentage and two first place finishes, but there's not a lot about him that makes a strong case for the Hall at this point.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Cowtipper View Post
          It seems like a lot of very solid, but not stupendous, managers have passed through the ranks these past 15 years. Buck Showalter is one of those guys. He has over 1,100 wins, a .515 winning percentage and two first place finishes, but there's not a lot about him that makes a strong case for the Hall at this point.
          He built the Arizona Diamondbacks practically from the ground.
          "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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          • #6
            Buck built up the Yankees from the Steinbrennerian depths of the late '80s, they got to the playoffs, he left, and then Joe Torre had his run.

            He built Arizona from the ground up, he won his division, fell off the next year, he left, and then Bob Brenly mismanaged what he left behind into a WS win.

            He turns up in Texas, builds up that team, then the bubble bursts (largely b/c of the ARod contract and Hicks's financial woes). Buck leaves, and is replaced by Ron Washington, who presides over a couple of down years and then their current strong run.

            Buck spends a few years at ESPN, gets hired by Baltimore, revives their fortunes almost immediately, and then...well, we'll find out, I suppose.

            It's hard to know what to make of this record. Showalter's like Moses -- he can direct his teams to the Promised Land, but he can't get there himself.

            Do you give him credit for building and directing the franchises, or dock him for not popping the champagne corks? Both, I suppose, which doesn't really add up to a WS resume.

            Mauch is a good analogy, although Mauch's got enough longevity that I favor his induction anyway. Buck's barely past 50% of Mauch's career games managed -- although Buck's got a winning record and Mauch doesn't.
            Last edited by Cougar; 10-16-2013, 06:13 PM. Reason: Answered my own rhetorical question.

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            • #7
              MLB did not declare league champions for the 1994 season, but the Yankees and Expos had the best records in their leagues.

              If MLB retroactively declared the 1994 Yankees and 1994 Expos to be pennant-winners in their respective leagues, Showalter would be viewed in a different light. He's be freed from Gene Mauch Land, and into the land of pennant winners. YANKEE pennant winners at that.

              BTW: I think MLB ought to declare the Yanks and Expos 1994 pennant winners. It's not unfair; they had the best records in their leagues. In 1904, there was no WS, as the Pittsburgh NL franchise refused to play the Boston AL franchise.
              "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

              NL President Ford Frick, 1947

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear View Post
                MLB did not declare league champions for the 1994 season, but the Yankees and Expos had the best records in their leagues.

                If MLB retroactively declared the 1994 Yankees and 1994 Expos to be pennant-winners in their respective leagues, Showalter would be viewed in a different light. He's be freed from Gene Mauch Land, and into the land of pennant winners. YANKEE pennant winners at that.

                BTW: I think MLB ought to declare the Yanks and Expos 1994 pennant winners. It's not unfair; they had the best records in their leagues. In 1904, there was no WS, as the Pittsburgh NL franchise refused to play the Boston AL franchise.
                It is unfair. There were two other division "winners" plus a wildcard. No winners because both players and management walks away is the only fairness about that season.


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
                  It is unfair. There were two other division "winners" plus a wildcard. No winners because both players and management walks away is the only fairness about that season.


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                  Well, what happened was unfair. There is no "fair" solution. There is only a "best" solution, and the Yankees and Expos did have the best regular season records in the season. Was it "unfair" to split the season in 1981, after that strike was resolved? Perhaps, if you were a Red or Cardinal fan, but it was the "best" way to handle the situation, all things considered.

                  Showalter aside, how unfair was it to the fans of the Montreal Expos to post the best record in the NL, only to have it count for nothing. NOTHING. I believe that if the Expos had been declared NL Pennant Winners for 1994, it would have been (A) fair to baseball history, and (B) a needed tonic for Montreal baseball. To just have no champion declared in the leagues was/is unfair to history and unfair to the teams with the best records.
                  Last edited by Fuzzy Bear; 10-19-2013, 08:38 PM.
                  "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

                  NL President Ford Frick, 1947

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear View Post
                    Well, what happened was unfair. There is no "fair" solution. There is only a "best" solution, and the Yankees and Expos did have the best regular season records in the season. Was it "unfair" to split the season in 1981, after that strike was resolved? Perhaps, if you were a Red or Cardinal fan, but it was the "best" way to handle the situation, all things considered.

                    Showalter aside, how unfair was it to the fans of the Montreal Expos to post the best record in the NL, only to have it count for nothing. NOTHING. I believe that if the Expos had been declared NL Pennant Winners for 1994, it would have been (A) fair to baseball history, and (B) a needed tonic for Montreal baseball. To just have no champion declared in the leagues was/is unfair to history and unfair to the teams with the best records.
                    There were way too many games left to declare anyone a winner. Any declaration would have been nothing more than artificial. No solace in that.
                    As far as Showalter goes, he's a great manager. An argument can be made he's the best manager without a championship.


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                    • #11
                      The 1985 to 2015 stretch has had a glut of really great managers, and Showalter is one of them. He'd need a World Series victory to solidify his case, but he's not too far behind Scioscia in terms of present and future Hall of Fame worthiness and consideration.

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                      • #12
                        Showalter, with 1,340 career wins, is entering into some pretty elite territory. He ranks 31st all-time in managerial wins, between Chuck Tanner and Ned Hanlon. 19 of the 30 managers ahead of him are in the Hall of Fame. I'd say he's 'getting there.'

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                        • #13
                          I do not consider someone to be elite if they are ranked 31st in their category.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Orioles5 View Post
                            I do not consider someone to be elite if they are ranked 31st in their category.
                            That's fair enough, but where is the line then? Top 20? Top 10? Top 3?

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Orioles5 View Post
                              I do not consider someone to be elite if they are ranked 31st in their category.
                              Roberto Clemente ranks #29 in the 3000 hit club. Is he not "elite"?

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