The final 20 please rate them, let the controversy begin

[JR Hart]

Here is the final 20 perspective HOFers. This list contains some controversial players. I love when posters write comments, and feel free to expound. However,please no conditional ratings. You must assign a definite number to each player.

Here is the rating scale:

5-Why is he not in? (if he was eligible)
4- Has a good case
3- marginal, has some merit
2-comes up short
1-are you kidding me?

The final 20:

Bill Freehan
Minnie Minnoso
Mark McGwire
Roger Maris
Barry Bonds
Vada Pinson
Fred McGriff
Orel Hershiser
Roger Clemens
Bill Buckner
Gregg Maddux
Rusty Staub
Mickey Vernon
Derek Jeter
Kenny Lofton
Alex Rodriquez
Frank Thomas
Jose Canseco
Tom Glavine
Sammy Sosa

[Seels]

Bill Freehan - 2 - Has a case, just not much of one
Minnie Minnoso - 4 - Bizarre that he isn't in.
Mark McGwire - 1 - Steroids. No thanks.
Roger Maris - 2 - He has a case based upon more than 61, but ultimately no.
Barry Bonds - 5 - Too good to not be in
Vada Pinson - 2 - Not enough
Fred McGriff - 3 - Most borderline player ever
Orel Hershiser - 3 - I like Hershiser's case.
Roger Clemens - 5 - Scumbag. I'd love it if he didn't make it.
Bill Buckner - 1 - Not even close
Gregg Maddux - 5 - Obviously
Rusty Staub - 1 - Not even close
Mickey Vernon - 1
Derek Jeter - 5 - Obviously
Kenny Lofton - 2 - Ok, he passes the WAR test. But, no one thought of Lofton as a hall of famer at the time. Also, I'm a beleiver if a guy is on a bunch of teams, there is a reason. I think Lofton is one of those players who WAR really misrepresents.
Alex Rodriquez - 5 - Obviously
Frank Thomas - 5 - Obviously
Jose Canseco - 1 - Roids and general goonery
Tom Glavine - 5 - Obviously
Sammy Sosa - 1 I wouldn't approve of Sosa even if he wasn't a steroids user. But he is. No. No no no.

[willshad]

So Sosa and Mcgwire get rejected for being users, but Bonds, Clemens, and A-rod don't? At least be consistent.

[toomanyhatz]

Bill Freehan - 2 - Not before Ted Simmmons you don't. A very very good catcher but never a great one.
Minnie Minoso - 4 - The early decline is all that keeps him from being a sure thing. For longevity, all-around game and a lot else, he should be in.
Mark McGwire - 3 - Borderline, but he technically didn't do anything illegal and he evaded rather than lied. It's often forgotten that he did more than hit HR. He wasn't Jimmy Foxx, but he wasn't Dave Kingman either.
Roger Maris - 2 - Underrated player career-wise, great all-around game, and no accident he played on champions in both leagues, but ultimately too little and not long enough.
Barry Bonds - 5 - Great in so many ways, most of which PEDs didn't help. If skill is the ultimate guide, you simply can't keep him out.
Vada Pinson - 3 - Another who's no better than borderline, though many worse players are already in.
Fred McGriff - 3 - More class than almost anyone in his era, I want to elect him just on that, but can't deny his stats are pretty borderline.
Orel Hershiser - 2 - Much as I'd love it just for '88- to me he should've been MVP that year, not Gibson- his overuse that decade ruined him for the next, and he falls short.
Roger Clemens - 4 - Not quite the case Bonds has, but one of the great pitchers ever. I think he's a liar and a hypocrite, but the record's on the books plain to see.
Bill Buckner - 1 - Time to forgive him for '86- not his fault ultimately, he had no business being there- but HoF level player? No way.
Gregg Maddux - 5 - Last of his kind alone should insure it- spanned the era from workhorse to specialty staff- but he's one of the greatest ever all told.
Rusty Staub - 1 - Should be an alternate hall for his kind- put Smokey Burgess and Manny Mota in too- but there's just not enough there.
Mickey Vernon - 2 - A very very good player for a long time, but falls short of greatness.
Derek Jeter - 5 - Can't let my Yankee-hatred stand in the way of how long he conducted himself with class. Will be very high on the all-time hit list by the time he's done.
Kenny Lofton - 3 - First things first- not as good as Tim Raines (who I rate at least a 4) by a longshot. Underrated, but not an undeniable case either.
Alex Rodriquez - 5 - Tempted to give him a 4- another liar and cheat and an egotist besides- but like with Bonds his case is too good and too diverse to deny.
Frank Thomas - 4 - A great hitter. Will probably suffer for the same suspicions as Bagwell, but doesn't have the complete game Bagwell did. One of the greatest hitters ever for almost a decade, though, so on balance he's got a pretty good case.
Jose Canseco - 2 - Even without the PEDs he'd be borderline. Still a great hitter till the end, but the end came too soon and his speed deserted him, and his defense always sucked.
Tom Glavine - 5 - In Maddux's shadow, but almost as good. Leaving him out 'cause he's on the same team would be like voting in Ruth but not Gehrig.
Sammy Sosa - 2 - If the speed hadn't deserted him early, he might have a case, but he's mostly power and tainted power at that.

[leecemark]

Bill Freehan -4
Minnie Minnoso -4
Mark McGwire - 3
Roger Maris - 2
Barry Bonds -5
Vada Pinson -2
Fred McGriff - 3
Orel Hershiser - 2
Roger Clemens - 5
Bill Buckner - 1
Gregg Maddux - 5
Rusty Staub - 2
Mickey Vernon - 2
Derek Jeter - 5
Kenny Lofton - 2
Alex Rodriquez - 5
Frank Thomas - 5
Jose Canseco - 2
Tom Glavine - 5
Sammy Sosa - 3

[ol' aches and pains]

Bill Freehan - 3, had HOF potential.
Minnie Minoso - 5, and he's still alive. He needs to get in now.
Mark McGwire - 1, PED users don't get in my Hall of Fame
Roger Maris -3, had a great 3-year peak in the middle of a mediocre career.
Barry Bonds - 1, PED's and one of the least likeable people in MLB history.
Vada Pinson - 3, just below the cutoff for me.
Fred McGriff - 4, I wouldn't be upset if he were elected.
Orel Hershiser - 3, had one incredible season, but it's not enough.
Roger Clemens - 1, See Barry Bonds
Bill Buckner - 3, very good player, but not quite HOF material.
Gregg Maddux - 5, no-brainer.
Rusty Staub - 3, close, but no cigar.
Mickey Vernon - 3, also close.
Derek Jeter - 5, another no-brainer. Will probably finish third all-time in career hits.
Kenny Lofton - 3, well-traveled CF had a fine career.
Alex Rodriquez - 1, PED's, DB.
Frank Thomas - 5, Before his mid-career injuries, he was the best right-handed hitter I ever saw.
Jose Canseco - PED's, DB
Tom Glavine - 5, forget his sorry decline with the Mets, he's in.
Sammy Sosa - 1, PED's, HUGE DB.

[Bothrops Atrox]

Tom Glavine - 5, forget his sorry decline with the Mets, he's in.
.

From 2004-2007, Glavine averaged 205 innings and a 112 ERA+, with two All-Star appearances, and 3.5 WAR per season. Not to mention a spectacular 2006 postseason. And from a 38-41 year old on top of it. That is one heck of a decline for a 40 year old.

[Bothrops Atrox]

Bill Freehan - 3
Minnie Minnoso - 4
Mark McGwire - 4
Roger Maris - 2
Barry Bonds - 5
Vada Pinson - 2
Fred McGriff - 3
Orel Hershiser - 3
Roger Clemens - 5
Bill Buckner - 1
Greg Maddux - 5
Rusty Staub - 2
Mickey Vernon -2
Derek Jeter - 5
Kenny Lofton - 3
Alex Rodriquez - 5
Frank Thomas - 5
Jose Canseco - 2
Tom Glavine - 5
Sammy Sosa -4

[Captain Cold Nose]

So Sosa and Mcgwire get rejected for being users, but Bonds, Clemens, and A-rod don't? At least be consistent.

McGwire and Sosa were not as consistent on the field as Bonds, Clemens and A-Rod.

[leecemark]

Bill Freehan - 2 - Not before Ted Simmmons you don't. A very very good catcher but never a great one.

--I agree Simmons has a slightly better case, but Freehan was a great catcher. He was a serious MVP candidate at his peak, the best catcher in the AL for most of a decade and the best in baeball for several years.

[jjpm74]

Bill Freehan 4
Minnie Minnoso 4
Mark McGwire 4
Roger Maris 3
Barry Bonds 5
Vada Pinson 4
Fred McGriff 2
Orel Hershiser 3
Roger Clemens 5
Bill Buckner 1
Gregg Maddux 5+ (top 10 all time easily, top 5 all time among pitchers)
Rusty Staub 3
Mickey Vernon 2
Derek Jeter 5
Kenny Lofton 3
Alex Rodriquez 5
Frank Thomas 5
Jose Canseco 2
Tom Glavine 5
Sammy Sosa 2

[jalbright]

McGwire and Sosa were not as consistent on the field as Bonds, Clemens and A-Rod.

I haven't seen anyone parse out when A-Rod got involved, but it's rather clear that Bonds and Clemens turned in HOF-caliber careers before juicing. McGwire and Sosa, along with Palmiero and some others, look much more like guys who might well not have turned in HOF-caliber careers without the juice. A-Rod at a glance seems to be more like Bonds and Clemens than McGwire and Sosa.

[Seels]

So Sosa and Mcgwire get rejected for being users, but Bonds, Clemens, and A-rod don't? At least be consistent.

I am. I don't think Sosa or McGwire were good enough players, and think ARod Bonds and Clemends are too good to ignore.

Honestly I'm completely fine if all PED users are left out.

[dgarza]

Bill Freehan - 1 - Munson was better at peak and career (even though it was a shorter career), and I'd only give Munson a 1
Minnie Minnoso - 4
Mark McGwire - 5
Roger Maris - 1
Barry Bonds - 5
Vada Pinson - 2
Fred McGriff - 4
Orel Hershiser - 1
Roger Clemens - 5
Bill Buckner - 1
Greg Maddux - 5
Rusty Staub - 1
Mickey Vernon - 2
Derek Jeter - 5
Kenny Lofton - 1
Alex Rodriquez - 5
Frank Thomas - 5
Jose Canseco - 2
Tom Glavine - 5
Sammy Sosa - 5

[NJRob65]

Bill Freehan- 3. Very underrated, but still not good enough to be in the HoF.

Minnie Minoso-3 High 3. Late start in the majors largely due to his horrendous fielding at third base, was moved to the outfield. Rather truncated major league career.

Mark McGwire-5. Has virtually no shot at being elected by the B.B.W.A.A., support has actually been declining in recent years, while fellow P.E.D. user Rafael Palmeiro, who lied to a Congressional committee, a felony, actually gained a bit of support.

Roger Maris-2 high 2. If Maris had hit 59 homers in 1961, he probably wouldn't rate a mention. His career falls short, there are many superior candidates at right field alone who are largely forgotten.

Barry Bonds-5. One of the greatest players in major league history and one of the most despised, as well. I'm not positive he'll be elected by the B.B.W.A.A.

Vada Pinson-3. Had an excellent career start and then faded into mediocrity. Did have a fairly long career.

Fred McGriff-3. Somewhat underrated, the fact that he failed to hit 40 homers in a single season and 500 in his career, probably hurts him some, although it should be irrelevant.

Orel Hershiser- 3 . Had a few outstanding years. Career falls short.

Roger Clemens- 5. An all time great starting pitcher. In recent years the media has turned its fury on him, although he's not as despised as Bond, is at least in the ballpark, which probably can't be said about any other active candidate, those still eligible on the B.B.W.A.A. ballot. Probably has an even money chance, at best, at being elected to the HoF by the B.B.W.A.A.

Bill Buckner-1. Won a batting title, hardly ever walked, very low career OBP, also lacked power. Poor fielder. Atrocious career WAR

Greg Maddux-5. All time great pitcher, will have no problem being elected to the HoF on the first ballot.

Rusty Staub-3 Low 3. Very popular player wherever he went. Little underrated, had very long career. Largely a pinch hitter the last few years of his career.

Mickey Vernon- 2 Won two batting titles, but his overall career numbers, doesn't warrant serious discussion.

Derek Jeter-5. Overrated, particularly as a fielder. Media loves him. Definitely an all-time Top 10 shortstop.

Kenny Lofton-4. Tremendously underrated, particularly sabermetrically. Had extensive postseason experience. Will probably be fortunate to receive more than five percent of the vote when he becomes eligible for the HoF, there is probably a good chance he'' be "one and done", unfortunately.

Alex Rodriguez-5. Is currently largely disliked by much of the media and fans. Still has a chance at breaking the all time home run record. Since he has several years left and then a five year wait, there is a decent chance that most of this P.E.D. nonsense will have blown over.

Frank Thomas-5. Great hitter and great nickname. DHed way too much for my liking. Should easily be inducted into the HoF.

Jose Canseco-3 Low 3. Tremendously talented but also troubled. Largely despised by the media, although not as much as Bonds. Wasn't elected by the B.B.W.A.A. and it's highly unlikely the New Veteran's Committee will select him.

Tom Glavine-5. While not in the class of contemporaries Clemens, Maddux or Johnson he was credited with 300+ career victories. A slam dunk for the HoF.

Sammy Sosa-3 high 3. While the vast majority of attention about P.E.D. has focused on Bonds and Clemens among 2013 B.B.W.A.A. first year Hall of Fame candidates, Sosa has largely been ignored. Has little or no shot at being elected by the B.B.W.A.A.