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  • The last 25, I promise, please rate them

    I was going to stop at 100, but after realizing that I had forgotton Pedro, the Unit, and Raffie and then seeing the excellant thread, by DJC showing all the HOFs, I just had to add these 25 to my project . Thanks for all the feedback. I apreciate it. I especially like when posters add comments to their ratings.

    I promise that I will stop at 125. thank you

    Here is the rating scale:

    5-Why is he not in? (if he was eligible)
    4- Has a good case
    3- marginal, has some merit
    2-comes up short
    1-are you kidding me?

    the really final 25

    Jack Glasscock
    Sherry Magee
    Pedro Martinez
    Heinie Groh
    Randy Johnson
    Stan Hack
    Rafael Palmeiro
    Gene Tenace
    Hardy Richardson
    Rick Reuschel
    Willie Randolph
    Jim McCormick
    Urban Shocker
    Pete Browning
    Babe Adams
    Kevin Appier
    Willie Davis
    Chuck Finley
    Bob Johnson
    Chet Lemon
    Bob Caruthers
    Tony Mullane
    Sal Bando
    Jack Quinn
    Vern Stephens
    Last edited by JR Hart; 11-24-2012, 08:07 PM.
    This week's Giant

    #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

  • #2
    Jack Glasscock - 3
    Sherry Magee - 3
    Pedro Martinez - 5
    Heinie Groh - 4
    Randy Johnson - 5
    Stan Hack - 4
    Rafael Palmeiro - 4
    Gene Tenace - 2
    Hardy Richardson - 3
    Rick Reuschel - 3
    Willie Randolph - 3
    Jim McCormick - 2
    Urban Shocker - 3
    Pete Browning - 3
    Babe Adams - 3
    Kevin Appier - 2
    Willie Davis - 2
    Chuck Finley - 2
    Bob Johnson - 2
    Chet Lemon - 2
    Bob Caruthers - 5
    Babe Adams - is this a different Babe Adams than the Pirates pitcher?
    Sal Bando - 2
    Jack Quinn - 1
    Vern Stephens - 3

    Comment


    • #3
      Babe Adams - is this a different Babe Adams than the Pirates pitcher?

      No. he is 2 HOFs according DJC's thread



      .....and listed twice ooops

      I meant to put Tony Mullane please rate him
      Last edited by JR Hart; 11-24-2012, 08:06 PM.
      This week's Giant

      #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

      Comment


      • #4
        Jack Glasscock - 4 - Versatility, top fielding. With a .300 avg. he'd be better known.
        Sherry Magee - 3 - Nice peak, decent career, and by the standards of his era, quite a power hitter, but a minus fielder at two positions where there are plenty better
        Pedro Martinez - 5 - Don't care about the low win total (by HoF standards) or the intimidation factor- if he was really clean he's in the top ten pitchers in history.
        Heinie Groh - 4 - Knew how to get on base, fielded two positions well. Good enough for me.
        Randy Johnson - 5 - Harnessed his control late, but then lasted a while for good measure. Like Glavine and Maddux, one of the last of his kind.
        Stan Hack - 3- Bill James cause celebre underrated by some, overrated by James. Too many average years, but great peak.
        Rafael Palmeiro - 3 - Grudgingly I give him a 3. Steroids prolonged his career or he wouldn't have the headline numbers. Steady and very very good, short of great.
        Gene Tenace - 2- Good on base guy who clogged the pipes once he got on. Underrated in a way I guess, but well below Tom Haller, let alone Bill Freehan.
        Hardy Richardson - 2 - Another 19th Century "power hitter." Largely unfamiliar, but the numbers don't impress. Pretty typical for the period except for the few peak years.
        Rick Reuschel - 3 - The late comback's impressive, I suppose, but "slow and steady" shouldn't win the race for pitchers.
        Willie Randolph - 4 - My Darrel Evans. One of the most underrated players in baseball history. Loved him as a Dodger.
        Jim McCormick - 3 - Even more like Bond, only without the control.
        Urban Shocker - 3 - Great for the Browns, OK for the Yanks, too little peak overall. Better than plenty (including teammates!) already in of course.
        Pete Browning - 2 - Starred in inferior leagues, couldn't field worth a damn.
        Babe Adams - 2 - Good but not great.
        Tony Mullane - 4 - The other Irish-born player that should be in the HoF, though he was kind of a creep by all accounts.
        Kevin Appier - 2 - Similar to Reuschel, not as good. Not quite enouh to impress me.
        Willie Davis - 3 - Great all-around game, adjust for the era and he looks better. Still, a touch short of greatness.
        Chuck Finley - 2 - Mostly remembered for wearing Tawny Kitaen's boot prints. A very good pitcher for a decent amount of time.
        Bob Johnson - 3 - Indian Bob's right on the borderline. Had easily his best season at age 38. Test him!! (Kidding.)
        Chet Lemon - 2 - Did a lot of things well. Not better than Tony Oliva.
        Bob Caruthers - 3 - Yet another short-peaked pitcher who resembles Bond. My distrust for AA stats lessens my confidence in him.
        Sal Bando - 3 - Also in the Darrel Evans mode, with less offense.
        Jack Quinn - 2 - Impressive staying power, few signs of greatness.
        Vern Stephens - 3 - Very underrated, great hitter and surprisingly good fielder seemingly, at multiple positions. Too little peak, but as I said on the SS thread, what a peak!
        Last edited by toomanyhatz; 11-25-2012, 07:55 PM. Reason: Added Babe Adams
        Found in a fortune cookie On Thursday, August 18th, 2005: "Hard words break no bones, Kind words butter no parsnips."

        1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988 2017?

        Comment


        • #5
          Tony Mullane - 3

          Comment


          • #6
            Feel free to do more after this if you want. These lists have been good conversation pieces in the forums.

            Jack Glasscock - 4 (great player in his day)
            Sherry Magee - 5 (One of the old timers who should be in already)
            Pedro Martinez - 5 (one of the most dominant peaks ever)
            Heinie Groh - 4 (dominant in his era)
            Randy Johnson - 5 (one of the best pitchers in the history of baseball)
            Stan Hack - 4 (would be a 5, but his career is a bit short)
            Rafael Palmeiro - 2 (PEDs + compiler = no way)
            Gene Tenace - 3 (has a much better case than people give him credit for)
            Hardy Richardson - 4 (Dominant second baseman)
            Rick Reuschel - 4 (Bert Blyleven lite)
            Willie Randolph - 4 (Dominant second baseman)
            Jim McCormick - 3 (Stats are a bit gaudy; the 4th best pitcher in a 12 team league. Pass)
            Urban Shocker - 5 (Many of his contemporaries with lesser careers than him are in)
            Pete Browning - 3 (His fielding prevents him from being a 4)
            Babe Adams - 3 (Solid pitcher with a good WHIP, but his career falls a bit short)
            Kevin Appier - 3 (Great for a short period, but not enough)
            Willie Davis - 1 (No way)
            Chuck Finley - 2 (Career was too short)
            Bob Johnson - 4 (Indian Bob was a great hitter)
            Chet Lemon - 2 (better than he gets credit for, but not a HoFer)
            Bob Caruthers - 5 (pitching + hitting)
            Tony Mullane - 3 (pitched in a weak league)
            Sal Bando - 4 (the cornerstone of a franchise during one of its most successful eras)
            Jack Quinn - 4 (Length of career + sustained durability and productivity)
            Vern Stephens - 3 (Playing during WWII hurts his case; Phil Rizzuto was much better than him)
            Last edited by jjpm74; 11-26-2012, 10:29 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Jack Glasscock - 2
              Sherry Magee - 5
              Pedro Martinez - 5
              Heinie Groh - 2
              Randy Johnson - 5
              Stan Hack - 4
              Rafael Palmeiro - 5
              Gene Tenace - 1
              Hardy Richardson - 3
              Rick Reuschel - 1
              Willie Randolph - 2
              Jim McCormick - 5
              Urban Shocker - 2
              Pete Browning - 5
              Babe Adams - 1
              Kevin Appier - 1
              Willie Davis - 1
              Chuck Finley - 1
              Bob Johnson - 4
              Chet Lemon - 1
              Bob Caruthers - 5
              Tony Mullane - 4
              Sal Bando - 1
              Jack Quinn - 1
              Vern Stephens - 4

              Comment


              • #8
                Jack Glasscock - 3
                Sherry Magee - 4
                Pedro Martinez - 5
                Heinie Groh - 2
                Randy Johnson - 5
                Stan Hack - 3
                Rafael Palmeiro - 4
                Gene Tenace - 3
                Hardy Richardson - 2
                Rick Reuschel - 3
                Willie Randolph - 3
                Jim McCormick - 3
                Urban Shocker - 3
                Pete Browning - 2
                Babe Adams - 2
                Kevin Appier - 3
                Willie Davis - 3
                Chuck Finley - 2
                Bob Johnson - 3
                Chet Lemon - 2
                Bob Caruthers - 4
                Tony Mullane - 3
                Sal Bando - 4
                Jack Quinn - 2
                Vern Stephens-2
                Last edited by Bothrops Atrox; 11-26-2012, 05:31 AM.
                1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                Comment


                • #9
                  Jack Glasscock - 4
                  Sherry Magee - 4
                  Pedro Martinez - 5
                  Heinie Groh - 4
                  Randy Johnson - 5
                  Stan Hack - 4
                  Rafael Palmeiro - 1
                  Gene Tenace - 1
                  Hardy Richardson - 3
                  Rick Reuschel - 2
                  Willie Randolph - 3
                  Jim McCormick - 1
                  Urban Shocker - 3
                  Pete Browning - 3
                  Babe Adams - 2
                  Kevin Appier - 2
                  Willie Davis - 2
                  Chuck Finley - 2
                  Bob Johnson - 2
                  Chet Lemon - 2
                  Bob Caruthers - 4
                  Tony Mullane - 2
                  Sal Bando - 3
                  Jack Quinn - 1
                  Vern Stephens - 2

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Here is the rating scale:

                    5-Why is he not in? (if he was eligible)
                    4- Has a good case
                    3- marginal, has some merit
                    2-comes up short
                    1-are you kidding me?

                    the really final 25

                    Jack Glasscock - 3 - Great fielder, 2000+ hits...that usually gets a shortstop over the line.
                    Sherry Magee - 4 - Dominant dead ball hitter
                    Pedro Martinez - 5 - More dominant than Koufax in his prime.
                    Heinie Groh - 3 - Great deadball on base man -- best player on 1919 Reds WS winners*
                    Randy Johnson - 5 - Was Big Unit the best lefty ever? You could make a case.
                    Stan Hack - 5 - Prime example of the chronic shortchanging of third basemen and leadoff men.
                    Rafael Palmeiro - 5 - Finger wag is only argument against. Not that it's a bad one.
                    Gene Tenace - 2 - A classic TTO guy, but only eight full time seasons, and not much of a catcher.
                    Hardy Richardson - 3 - Very borderline 19th century player; would prefer 2.5
                    Rick Reuschel - 3 - Great pitcher on awful Cubs teams.
                    Willie Randolph - 4 - underrated due to lack of power; classy player also overshadowed by Bronx Zoo.
                    Jim McCormick - 3 - Very good 19th century pitcher...question with this and others is how deep do we go in 19th century?
                    Urban Shocker - 4 - Better than several HOF pitchers; odd oversight on great Yankee teams
                    Pete Browning - 3 - Wonderful hitter, awful fielder
                    Babe Adams - 2 - Pirates have a bunch of good pitchers in the deadball era.
                    Kevin Appier - 2 - Very good run with Royals in 1990s
                    Willie Davis - 2 - Better than his reputation, but falls just short.
                    Chuck Finley - 2 - A very good pitcher for a long time.
                    Bob Johnson - 4 - Great hitter on awful A's teams
                    Chet Lemon - 2 - Solid but unspectacular centerfielder
                    Bob Caruthers - 4 - Short but spectacular career; great hitting pitcher won an OPS title
                    Tony Mullane - 3 - Flamboyant 19th century pitcher with 280+ wins
                    Sal Bando - 3 - Captain of the 1970s A's dynasty
                    Jack Quinn - 2 - One of the last spitballers; had best season in Federal League
                    Vern Stephens - 4 - Great bat and solid glove at SS; lost amidst star-laden Red Sox teams of 1940s.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Jack Glasscock - 3
                      Sherry Magee - 4
                      Pedro Martinez - 5
                      Heinie Groh - 3
                      Randy Johnson - 5
                      Stan Hack - 4
                      Rafael Palmeiro - 4
                      Gene Tenace - 2
                      Hardy Richardson - 3
                      Rick Reuschel - 2
                      Willie Randolph - 2
                      Jim McCormick - 4
                      Urban Shocker - 3
                      Pete Browning - 3
                      Babe Adams - 3
                      Kevin Appier - 2
                      Willie Davis - 3
                      Chuck Finley - 2
                      Bob Johnson - 3
                      Chet Lemon - 2
                      Bob Caruthers - 4
                      Tony Mullane - 4
                      Sal Bando - 2
                      Jack Quinn
                      Vern Stephens
                      "I am not too serious about anything. I believe you have to enjoy yourself to get the most out of your ability."-
                      George Brett

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Jack Glasscock - 3
                        Sherry Magee - 4
                        Pedro Martinez - 5
                        Heinie Groh - 4
                        Randy Johnson - 5
                        Stan Hack - 4
                        Rafael Palmeiro - 5
                        Gene Tenace - 3
                        Hardy Richardson - 3
                        Rick Reuschel - 2
                        Willie Randolph - 3
                        Jim McCormick - 2
                        Urban Shocker - 3
                        Pete Browning - 3
                        Babe Adams - 2
                        Kevin Appier - 2
                        Willie Davis - 2
                        Chuck Finley - 2
                        Bob Johnson - 3
                        Chet Lemon - 2
                        Bob Caruthers - 4
                        Tony Mullane - 3
                        Sal Bando - 3
                        Jack Quinn - 3
                        Vern Stephens - 3
                        http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploa...-showalter.gif

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Jack Glasscock 4- as far as SS go, yeah he’s a HOFer
                          Sherry Magee 4- very overlooked
                          Pedro Martinez 4- fantastic peak and certainly a HOFer, but he doesn’t have the sustained excellence for me to give him a 5
                          Heinie Groh 2 – great glove 1774 hits don’t cut it
                          Randy Johnson 5- the Unit was just incredible
                          Stan Hack 3- wouldn’t be the worst guy in great OBP, If Kell is in he should be, but Kell shouldn’t be.
                          Rafael Palmeiro 4 – HOF career, but not upper elite
                          Gene Tenace 1- I watched him play for 3 years, just no
                          Hardy Richardson 3- certainly a slugger for his time, just 1688 hits, just not enough
                          Rick Reuschel 4 - I love Big Daddy, pitched well for bad teams
                          Willie Randolph 4- 5x all-star championships, consistency, OBP, he rates
                          Jim McCormick 4- Overlooked, this guy makes the grade. He won big.
                          Urban Shocker 3- 187-117, a good ERA+ 124 just not there
                          Pete Browning 2 - OPS+ king, he just didn’t play very long
                          Babe Adams 2- started out well and fizzled
                          Kevin Appier 2- not enough for long enough
                          Willie Davis 4 – great outfielder, base runner and hitter, played on championship teams
                          Chuck Finley 3- borderline, Appier with more longevity
                          Bob Johnson 3 -a real masher, falls in with the Frank Howards as just not there
                          Chet Lemon 3- the real glue to some good Tiger teams
                          Bob Caruthers -4 just 9 years, but 218-99 .688
                          Tony Mullane 4- I’m a sucker for 19th Cent pitchers 284-224
                          Sal Bando 3 -3 rings holds a lot of water, but the numbers are’t there
                          Jack Quinn 3- longevity award, but nothing spectacular
                          Vern Stephens 4 – The Tulo of his time
                          This week's Giant

                          #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
                            Jack Glasscock 4- as far as SS go, yeah he’s a HOFer
                            Sherry Magee 4- very overlooked
                            Pedro Martinez 4- fantastic peak and certainly a HOFer, but he doesn’t have the sustained excellence for me to give him a 5
                            Heinie Groh 2 – great glove 1774 hits don’t cut it
                            Randy Johnson 5- the Unit was just incredible
                            Stan Hack 3- wouldn’t be the worst guy in great OBP, If Kell is in he should be, but Kell shouldn’t be.
                            Rafael Palmeiro 4 – HOF career, but not upper elite
                            Gene Tenace 1- I watched him play for 3 years, just no
                            Hardy Richardson 3- certainly a slugger for his time, just 1688 hits, just not enough
                            Rick Reuschel 4 - I love Big Daddy, pitched well for bad teams
                            Willie Randolph 4- 5x all-star championships, consistency, OBP, he rates
                            Jim McCormick 4- Overlooked, this guy makes the grade. He won big.
                            Urban Shocker 3- 187-117, a good ERA+ 124 just not there
                            Pete Browning 2 - OPS+ king, he just didn’t play very long
                            Babe Adams 2- started out well and fizzled
                            Kevin Appier 2- not enough for long enough
                            Willie Davis 4 – great outfielder, base runner and hitter, played on championship teams
                            Chuck Finley 3- borderline, Appier with more longevity
                            Bob Johnson 3 -a real masher, falls in with the Frank Howards as just not there
                            Chet Lemon 3- the real glue to some good Tiger teams
                            Bob Caruthers -4 just 9 years, but 218-99 .688
                            Tony Mullane 4- I’m a sucker for 19th Cent pitchers 284-224
                            Sal Bando 3 -3 rings holds a lot of water, but the numbers are’t there
                            Jack Quinn 3- longevity award, but nothing spectacular
                            Vern Stephens 4 – The Tulo of his time
                            you know for a guy that presents himself as a curmudgeon you actually are pretty generous. I mean that in a good way.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
                              you know for a guy that presents himself as a curmudgeon you actually are pretty generous. I mean that in a good way.
                              Thanks, I'll take it in a good way. I actually had to look up the word curmudgeon ( I only had an English minor [laugh]). It means a "surly or miserly person." Wow, I'll try to present myself better. I'm actually very satirical, but that doesn't come across well in print.

                              As for my rankings, yes this is the most generous that I've been. I found myself going back and upgrading a few times to adjust the relative scores. I've enjoyed this list the most, because the idea for these guys from the HOF comparision thread, which is awesome.

                              I really like doing this project. I hope that people are reading the ranking that I put out, when the voting for each group has run it's course. It's a simple process, but I hope that it adds to some good discussion. The rankings are different from some of the other rankings here. Keith Hernandez recieved light support here. Someone noted on this thread, that I should keep posting lists of players, that would be my pleasure.

                              Thanks to everyone for the input and please keep rating this group. I especially like when posters make comments.
                              Last edited by JR Hart; 11-27-2012, 01:24 PM.
                              This week's Giant

                              #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

                              Comment

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