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The MVP and the HOF

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  • #16
    The Big Hurt played during the PED era but has his name ever been mentioned as a potential user? Yes, I suppose you could go out on a limb and say that any player during that era could have been a potential user, but I don't ever recall his name being brought up like like some of his peers.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by 9&10 View Post
      The Big Hurt played during the PED era but has his name ever been mentioned as a potential user? Yes, I suppose you could go out on a limb and say that any player during that era could have been a potential user, but I don't ever recall his name being brought up like like some of his peers.
      I don't think that one has to go out on a limb and be skeptical. Remember when AROD was the "clean" poster boy before the leak.
      This week's Giant

      #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

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      • #18
        Frank Thomas is not "questionable" for the HOF in any way, shape or form.
        "It's like watching a Western. It's slow, so you can watch the chess moves. Nothing seems to happen, but when it goes down, it goes down big." - Howard Bryant

        3 6 10 21 29 31 35 41 42 44 47

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Los Bravos View Post
          Frank Thomas is not "questionable" for the HOF in any way, shape or form.
          I agree. I'll be shocked if he isn't elected on his first try.
          Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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          • #20
            Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
            I'm totally puzzled by this also. What happened? was it sabermetrics? I was sure that Murphy and Garvey were HOFers at the time that they played. They seemed like no-brainers. I still still think that they are. Baseball is played on the field and not in a math problem. Did anyone think that Bobby Grich was a HOFer when he played? He gets all-kind of support here. And don't even get me started on Darell Evans.
            Murphy faded, much like Mattingly. It's hard when all is said and done to put into the HOF a player who was a regular from 1980-1988. Fred Lynn got compared to Dimaggio for crying out loud, won GGs, ASG MVP, MVP-Rookie of the Year, Batting title, and I see noone bemoaning his absence from the hall.

            Garvey had much of his HOF case in the 200 hits, GGs, 100 RBI and the "clean cut, future political candidate image". Once Bill James started in with the he gets 700 PA and has no range articles. People saw what a real GG 1B looked like with Hernandez (and JT Snow). Then when the revelations came out about his personal life the mystique was gone. Grich FWIW was one of the first big money FAs after 1976 along with Reggie and Rudi. Perhaps it was just that he was out at the time or that Autry was spending like mad but I think he has a pretty good reputation back then. Unfortunately he got hurt in '77 and had an off year in 78. People forget the big years he had in '79 and '81 as they had moved on. After that he was solid but often injured.

            Evans never lived up to 1973 even though 1974 was a very good season. Then he went to the Giants and was putting up those sub .270 averages with 19 or so HR. I'm sure it was a let down. By his next big season in '83 I'm sure for Giant fans it was a bit of it's about time or too little too late overall.

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            • #21
              Nice topic.

              It got me thinking. What HOFers got some help for being awarded an MVP? A list that looks like this (From the earlier days to today):

              1.- Jim Bottomley (1928). Borderline HOFer. His 1928 MVP gave him peak value.
              2.- Dizzy Dean (1934). This guy had only 4 good seasons, 1 MVP and 2 2nd place MVP finishes.
              3.- Ernie Lombardi (1938). The trophy is named after him.
              4.- Joe Gordon (1942). He was a pretty good player. But the Hall isn't for "pretty good". That MVP took him to the HOF.
              5.- Hal Newhouser (1944, 1945). He won the MVP on the two weakest offensive seasons ever, because of WWII.
              6.- Lou Boudreau (1948). He's in for his managerial prowess too. But this season gave him more credibility as a player.
              7.- Phil Rizzuto (1950). Winning an MVP for the Yankees at that time was a sure thing for HOF. VC voted him in, so Mattingly, Munson, Howard and Maris can wait.
              8.- Roy Campanella (1951, 1953, 1955). His career totals don't add up, just ask Thurman Munson. But the 3 MVPs, that's automatic induction. (This is why I think Bonds would make it. He won 3 MVPs before his PED took off)
              9.- Orlando Cepeda (1967). His career wasn't better than Norm Cash's. But being the MVP of a World Champion helps.
              10.- Jim Rice (1978). How many 40 Hrs + 130 rbis season were between 1961 and 1996, sans 1987? Aaron '63, Killebrew '69, Foster '77, Rice '78, Fielder '90. Taking out Aaron and Killebrew, back in 1990, people raved about Foster, Rice and Fielder's seasons. Add New England, and you get a MVP award that proples you to the HOF.
              11.- I decided to leave it at 10, but Dawson is a compelling case. His peak wasn't better than Murphy's, but his career was. Career wise, this MVP was the last argument to be made for him as a HOFer.

              So yes, I think that MVP voting helps, but some players had nice careers, and the MVP didn't helped them:

              1.- Bucky Walters
              2.- Bob Elliot
              3.- Don Newcombe
              4.- Roger Maris
              5.- Ken Boyer
              6.- Joe Torre
              7.- Vida Blue
              8.- Steve Garvey
              9.- Thurman Munson
              10.- Dave Parker
              11.- Keith Hernandez
              12.- Don Mattingly
              13.- Jose Canseco
              14.- Juan Gonzalez
              "I am not too serious about anything. I believe you have to enjoy yourself to get the most out of your ability."-
              George Brett

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              • #22
                I agree with you on this one. What happened to the days when one could go to a game,WATCH in person a gifted player at the top of his game and note: "This guy is going to the HOF". This art has been lost. Trust me, Fred McGriff looked like a HOFer to me, and his career supports this.

                NOW, don't say that sabermetrics have tarnished the HOF. It hasn't happened yet. If not, some of the players we comment here will get more support from the VC, and it hasn't happened.
                "I am not too serious about anything. I believe you have to enjoy yourself to get the most out of your ability."-
                George Brett

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by yankillaz View Post
                  ....It got me thinking. What HOFers got some help for being awarded an MVP? A list that looks like this (From the earlier days to today):
                  ...
                  3.- Ernie Lombardi (1938). The trophy is named after him.
                  I sincerely hope you're kidding. The Lombardi trophy is football's championship trophy, and named for Vince Lombardi, the Packer coach of the 60's
                  ...
                  7.- Phil Rizzuto (1950). Winning an MVP for the Yankees at that time was a sure thing for HOF. VC voted him in, so Mattingly, Munson, Howard and Maris can wait.
                  Rizzuto was helped a great deal by his broadcasting career, which kept him in the spotlight. He also missed time to the service in WW II

                  8.- Roy Campanella (1951, 1953, 1955). His career totals don't add up, just ask Thurman Munson. But the 3 MVPs, that's automatic induction. (This is why I think Bonds would make it. He won 3 MVPs before his PED took off)
                  Campy also lost time to the color line, having been an all star in blackball for years before he got to play in the majors. Not his fault his career totals don't add up.
                  Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                  Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                  A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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                  • #24
                    Dizzy Dean got help from being Dizzy Dean. He was baseball's most famous personality not named Babe Ruth. The awards were an after thought, not the root cause.

                    And were people actually raving about Jim Rice in 1990? People did talk about George Foster, but only because he was the last to hit 50 before Fielder.

                    You can still go to a game and talk about a player being a HOFer. We do at games and we even do that here. But a personal belief does not necessarily mean it's going to happen. Steve Garvey certainly was thought of as a HOFer. Then you actually looked at what he did compared to so many others as well as those who actually were HOFers and maybe he didn't deserve all those accolades. I'm not even going to go into the clean cut all-american image. He really wasn't as good a hitter as Rod Carew or Eddie Murray. He wasn't the slick fielder Keith Hernandez was. Reality did not measure up to image, and, thankfully, for once it was figured out.
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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by jalbright View Post
                      I sincerely hope you're kidding. The Lombardi trophy is football's championship trophy, and named for Vince Lombardi, the Packer coach of the 60's
                      My bad. Still, he didn't have the career accolades. MVP took him over.

                      Originally posted by jalbright View Post
                      Rizzuto was helped a great deal by his broadcasting career, which kept him in the spotlight. He also missed time to the service in WW II
                      But here in BBF is one of the weakest selections ever. That MVP gave him star cred.

                      Originally posted by jalbright View Post
                      Campy also lost time to the color line, having been an all star in blackball for years before he got to play in the majors. Not his fault his career totals don't add up.
                      I thought Campanella was in for his MLB career. Didn't know they added with the Negro Leagues. I'm puzzled, my bad.
                      "I am not too serious about anything. I believe you have to enjoy yourself to get the most out of your ability."-
                      George Brett

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
                        Dizzy Dean got help from being Dizzy Dean. He was baseball's most famous personality not named Babe Ruth. The awards were an after thought, not the root cause.
                        True, but he was going to be in the HOF without the MVP?

                        Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
                        And were people actually raving about Jim Rice in 1990? People did talk about George Foster, but only because he was the last to hit 50 before Fielder.
                        Trust me, people raved about Jim Rice's monster season in '78. Puzzling, since he only one year retired.

                        Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
                        You can still go to a game and talk about a player being a HOFer. We do at games and we even do that here. But a personal belief does not necessarily mean it's going to happen. Steve Garvey certainly was thought of as a HOFer. Then you actually looked at what he did compared to so many others as well as those who actually were HOFers and maybe he didn't deserve all those accolades. I'm not even going to go into the clean cut all-american image. He really wasn't as good a hitter as Rod Carew or Eddie Murray. He wasn't the slick fielder Keith Hernandez was. Reality did not measure up to image, and, thankfully, for once it was figured out.
                        I'm not saying for this when we go to the place and see a player, think inmediately he's going to be a HOFer. That way I can say Trout is playing like a HOFer. No, what I think JRHart is saying, and I agree, is that when you see a player's career unfold and you've been following the MLB through out his whole career you could say: He's a Hall of Famer.

                        Best examples in my time: (Taking out all the PED guys.)

                        Don Mattingly. Alan Trammell. Jack Morris. Fred McGriff. Bernie Williams. Larry Walker. Albert Belle (I know, the PED thing. But if Rice is in, why not him?)
                        "I am not too serious about anything. I believe you have to enjoy yourself to get the most out of your ability."-
                        George Brett

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by yankillaz View Post


                          I'm not saying for this when we go to the place and see a player, think inmediately he's going to be a HOFer. That way I can say Trout is playing like a HOFer. No, what I think JRHart is saying, and I agree, is that when you see a player's career unfold and you've been following the MLB through out his whole career you could say: He's a Hall of Famer.

                          Best examples in my time: (Taking out all the PED guys.)

                          Don Mattingly. Alan Trammell. Jack Morris. Fred McGriff. Bernie Williams. Larry Walker. Albert Belle (I know, the PED thing. But if Rice is in, why not him?)
                          Are you saying people thought the above were talked about as HOF'ers while playing? I'm from Detroit and we may have said Trammell and Morris may have had shots eventually, nobody short of Sparky Anderson was endorsing their candidacies fully during their careers, from my vantage point. Hell, I was delighted when Bill James listed Trammell and Lou Whitaker as making the HOF years from when he wrote about it, and only after a long list of players ahead of them. The magazines that talked about it at the time sure never gave them that much. Of the players you listed, only Don Mattingly was truly given superstar status during his playing days. But that's just as I remembered it. Individual perception plays so much into this.
                          Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                          Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                          Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                          Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                          Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

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                          • #28
                            Regarding Garvey, I agree that he doesn't belong and that this shows how perspectives change. FWIW, his hitting was accomplished in Dodger Stadium, and this makes him an even better hitter in hindsight. However, he wasn't a good fielder and he was terrible in the clubhouse, at least with the Dodgers. He didn't have the longevity either.

                            Another player who was considered a shoo-in during his playing days: Dave Parker. He received all the pub, and a player with identical talents, Dave Winfield, had to move to New York to be recognized. Parker had two batting titles in 1977 and 1978, and won the MVP in 1978.
                            Last edited by abolishthedh; 12-15-2012, 09:39 PM. Reason: Research
                            Catfish Hunter, RIP. Mark Fidrych, RIP. Skip Caray, RIP. Tony Gwynn, #19, RIP

                            A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. -- Winston Churchill.

                            Experience is the hardest teacher. She gives the test first and the lesson later. -- Dan Quisenberry.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by abolishthedh View Post
                              Regarding Garvey, I agree that he doesn't belong and that this shows how perspectives change. FWIW, his hitting was accomplished in Dodger Stadium, and this makes him an even better hitter in hindsight. However, he wasn't a good fielder and he was terrible in the clubhouse, at least with the Dodgers. He didn't have the longevity either.

                              Another player who was considered a shoo-in during his playing days: Dave Parker. He received all the pub, and a player with identical talents, Dave Winfield, had to move to New York to be recognized. Parker had two batting titles in 1977 and 1978, and won the MVP in 1978.
                              Parker being implicated in the cocaine scandal in the early 80's killed the press hype. Even doing well in Cincinnati and as a DH in the A.L. didn't come close to putting him back in the headlines for what he was doing as a player.
                              Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                              Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                              Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                              Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                              Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

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