Catchers

[henrich]

Of the 94 catchers (determined by most at bats at that position) that have or will have 4000 at bats in their career, which can we agree don't have an argument for selection or induction. I'll bold my list and edit as you put in your opinions. Let me know where I'm going astray. i put italics on the two near consensus mistakes: Ferrell and Schalk
1. Matt Wieters 43. Johnny Kling 85. Bill Dickey
2. Ryan Doumit 44. Deacon McGuire 86. Ivan Rodriguez
3. John Buck 45. Benjie Molina 87. Johnny Bench
4. Red Dooin 46. Gus Mancuso 88. Yogi Berra
5. Butch Wynegar 47. Jim Sundberg 89. Al Lopez
6. Miguel Olivo 48. Del Crandall 90. Josh Gibson
7. Rick Cerone 49. Brad Ausmus 91. Charlie Bennett
8. Alan Ashby 50. Yadier Molina 92. Cal McVey
9. Carlos Ruiz 51. Sherm Lollar 93. Louis Santop
10. Rod Barajas 52. Jimmie Wilson 94. Katsuya Namura
11. Heinie Peitz 53. Terry Steinback
12. Ivey Wingo 54. AJ Pierzynski
13. Buster Posey 55. John Roseboro
14. Dan Wilson 56. Duke Farrell
15. Don Slaught 57. Manny Sanguillen
16. Brian McCann 58. Darrell Porter
17. Mike Heath 59. Tony Pena
18. Johnny Edwards 60. Joe Mauer
19. Steve O'Neill 61. Tim McCarver
20. Mike Lieberthal 62. Jason Varitek
21. Rollie Hemsley 63. Jason Kendall
22. Jim Hegan 64. Benito santiago
23. Chief Zimmer 65. Walker Cooper
24. Muddy Ruel 66. Bill Freehan
25. Wilbert Robinson 67. Gene Tenace
26. Jerry Grote 68. Bob Boone
27. Mike Scioscia 69. Javy Lopez
28. Luke Sewell 70. Lance Parrish
29. Terry Kennedy 71. Wally Schang
30. Rick Ferrell 72. Thurman munson
31. Rick Dempsey 73. Ernie Lombardi
32. Spud Davis 74. Buck Ewing
33. Mickey Tettleton 75. Joe Torre
34. Jack O'Connor 76. Ted Simmons
35. Smokey Burgess 77. Roy Campanella
36. Ray Schalk 78. Gabby Hartnett
37. Roger Bresnahan 79. Gary Carter
38. Sandy Alomar jr. 80. Carlton Fisk
39. Frank Snyder 81. Elston Howard
40. Ramon Hernandez 82. Mickey Cochrane
41. Joe Girardi 83. Mike Piazza
42. Victor Martinez 84. Jorge Posada

[dgarza]

I would drop the "or will have 4000 ABs", because guys like Matt Wieters do not have an argument. Charlie Bennett does not have 4000 ABs, but have a better argument than a lot of these players. Cal McVey as well, if his "position" fits.

[dgarza]

i put italics on the two near consensus mistakes: Ferrell and Schalk

I would say that if these guys are italics, then Lollar, Pena, Roseboro, Crandall, Al Lopez are either at that same level or slightly better.

[henrich]

i just didn't want to leave out mauer, wieters and posey. i get your point though...too speculative at this stage.

[henrich]

i addressed your 5 in the original post with an edit. I'll update it to see our common denominator. i didn't address current players yet...still thinking about it.

[Jackaroo Dave]

Interesting list, particularly its length. How many inductees do we expect to represent 89 or so possible candidates? Actually, I got 110 from BB reference for catcher >= 50% and PA >= 4K. About 20% of them came from the last two decades. It makes you ponder proportional representation, not just for catchers.

Where's Greg Zaun? Oh, the humanity!

Seriously, I'm wondering (a) why my list is 20% larger, and (b) while I'd feel ridiculous arguing for, say, Tim McCarver or Smokey Burgess, it seems there are a number of candidates not as good as these rejects.

Why (e.g. ) Roseboro and not Kling? Good defensive catchers who could hit a bit, played important role on historic teams

Why Boone and not Sundberg?

where's Tom Haller?

Very interesting project. It'll be fun seeing where it goes.

[dgarza]

Actually, I got 110 from BB reference for catcher >= 50% and PA >= 4K. About 20% of them came from the last two decades. It makes you ponder proportional representation, not just for catchers.

He's using ABs, But you used PAs....

Also, both approaches would over look Deacon White.

[jjpm74]

Johnny Kling might not be a slam dunk HOFer. but he definitely belongs among the top 44 at his position. I have him in my personal HOF. He was a pivotal player on the early Cubs World Series teams and one of the best catchers of his generation.

As dgarza already mentioned, Bennett and McVey should be there and have a better case than a lot of these players.

Another I did not see, but maybe I missed him is HOFer Deacon White. His best years came as a catcher.

EDIT: Form another project, here is a loose ranking of catchers I have done (these are based on catching only; Torre would rank much higher if I included his entire playing career; Ferrell would rank toward the #75 mark):

Johnny Bench
Yogi Berra
Roy Campanella
Gary Carter
Josh Gibson
Mike Piazza
----------------------
Mickey Cochrane
Bill Dickey
Carlton Fisk
Ivan Rodriguez
Louis Santop
Deacon White
---------------------
Buck Ewing
Gabby Hartnett
King Kelly
Bill Freehan
Jorge Posada
Ted Simmons
---------------------
Charlie Bennett
Roger Bresnahan
Johnny Kling
Biz Mackey
Joe Mauer
Thurman Munson
Wally Schang
--Top25---
Bob Boone
Deacon McGuire
Cal McVey
Katsuya Nomura
Joe Torre
Quincy Trouppe
----HOF Line------
Lance Parrish
Darrel Porter
Ray Schalk

[Cowtipper]

I think Steve O'Neill has an argument if you include his managerial career.

[henrich]

thanks for the input. I'll keep updating as more comments come in. I'll give it a week. I chose 4000 at bats because no one has less than 4000 at bats at catcher and is in the hall of fame (the traditional way). The closest is Roy Campanella, so i rounded down to the nearest 1000. I figured a player receives about 400 at bats a year as a catcher times 10 years (minimum eligibility) and i figure 4000 abs is a good number to start with. From here i'd like to cut out those that don't really matter to the discussion and maybe get it down to 40 players or so. I would then cut from the top and say these 10-15 catchers are no brainers and 99% of us believe that way, maybe even a consensus. This would leave us with 25-30 catchers to argue about and figure out which percentages of us would include the next group from 16-30, and then from 31 to 45. I'm guessing at the numbers. Deacon White I have listed as a 3B because, if memory serves, he had more games at 3b. Sorry i'm sure that's offensive-not meant that way, just looking at the data as where did he play the most...probably not a popular stance.

[henrich]

zaun had about 3400 at bats-so sad, just missed.

[henrich]

king kelly i have listed as an of-due to same reasons as deacon white.

[henrich]

haller had 3935 at bats. heartbreaking i know.

[Jackaroo Dave]

He's using ABs, But you used PAs....

Also, both approaches would over look Deacon White.

oh, right, head smack. Fortunately, the Deacon's spot is secure.