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    Of the 94 catchers (determined by most at bats at that position) that have or will have 4000 at bats in their career, which can we agree don't have an argument for selection or induction. I'll bold my list and edit as you put in your opinions. Let me know where I'm going astray. i put italics on the two near consensus mistakes: Ferrell and Schalk
    1. Matt Wieters 43. Johnny Kling 85. Bill Dickey
    2. Ryan Doumit 44. Deacon McGuire 86. Ivan Rodriguez
    3. John Buck 45. Benjie Molina 87. Johnny Bench
    4. Red Dooin 46. Gus Mancuso 88. Yogi Berra
    5. Butch Wynegar 47. Jim Sundberg 89. Al Lopez
    6. Miguel Olivo 48. Del Crandall 90. Josh Gibson
    7. Rick Cerone 49. Brad Ausmus 91. Charlie Bennett
    8. Alan Ashby 50. Yadier Molina 92. Cal McVey
    9. Carlos Ruiz 51. Sherm Lollar 93. Louis Santop
    10. Rod Barajas 52. Jimmie Wilson 94. Katsuya Namura
    11. Heinie Peitz 53. Terry Steinback
    12. Ivey Wingo 54. AJ Pierzynski
    13. Buster Posey 55. John Roseboro
    14. Dan Wilson 56. Duke Farrell
    15. Don Slaught 57. Manny Sanguillen
    16. Brian McCann 58. Darrell Porter
    17. Mike Heath 59. Tony Pena
    18. Johnny Edwards 60. Joe Mauer
    19. Steve O'Neill 61. Tim McCarver
    20. Mike Lieberthal 62. Jason Varitek
    21. Rollie Hemsley 63. Jason Kendall
    22. Jim Hegan 64. Benito santiago
    23. Chief Zimmer 65. Walker Cooper
    24. Muddy Ruel 66. Bill Freehan
    25. Wilbert Robinson 67. Gene Tenace
    26. Jerry Grote 68. Bob Boone
    27. Mike Scioscia 69. Javy Lopez
    28. Luke Sewell 70. Lance Parrish
    29. Terry Kennedy 71. Wally Schang
    30. Rick Ferrell 72. Thurman munson
    31. Rick Dempsey 73. Ernie Lombardi
    32. Spud Davis 74. Buck Ewing
    33. Mickey Tettleton 75. Joe Torre
    34. Jack O'Connor 76. Ted Simmons
    35. Smokey Burgess 77. Roy Campanella
    36. Ray Schalk 78. Gabby Hartnett
    37. Roger Bresnahan 79. Gary Carter
    38. Sandy Alomar jr. 80. Carlton Fisk
    39. Frank Snyder 81. Elston Howard
    40. Ramon Hernandez 82. Mickey Cochrane
    41. Joe Girardi 83. Mike Piazza
    42. Victor Martinez 84. Jorge Posada
    Last edited by henrich; 12-12-2012, 05:53 PM.

  • #2
    I would drop the "or will have 4000 ABs", because guys like Matt Wieters do not have an argument. Charlie Bennett does not have 4000 ABs, but have a better argument than a lot of these players. Cal McVey as well, if his "position" fits.
    Last edited by dgarza; 12-10-2012, 08:40 PM.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by henrich View Post
      i put italics on the two near consensus mistakes: Ferrell and Schalk
      I would say that if these guys are italics, then Lollar, Pena, Roseboro, Crandall, Al Lopez are either at that same level or slightly better.

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      • #4
        i just didn't want to leave out mauer, wieters and posey. i get your point though...too speculative at this stage.

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        • #5
          i addressed your 5 in the original post with an edit. I'll update it to see our common denominator. i didn't address current players yet...still thinking about it.

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          • #6
            Interesting list, particularly its length. How many inductees do we expect to represent 89 or so possible candidates? Actually, I got 110 from BB reference for catcher >= 50% and PA >= 4K. About 20% of them came from the last two decades. It makes you ponder proportional representation, not just for catchers.

            Where's Greg Zaun? Oh, the humanity!

            Seriously, I'm wondering (a) why my list is 20% larger, and (b) while I'd feel ridiculous arguing for, say, Tim McCarver or Smokey Burgess, it seems there are a number of candidates not as good as these rejects.

            Why (e.g. ) Roseboro and not Kling? Good defensive catchers who could hit a bit, played important role on historic teams

            Why Boone and not Sundberg?

            where's Tom Haller?

            Very interesting project. It'll be fun seeing where it goes.
            Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Jackaroo Dave View Post
              Actually, I got 110 from BB reference for catcher >= 50% and PA >= 4K. About 20% of them came from the last two decades. It makes you ponder proportional representation, not just for catchers.
              He's using ABs, But you used PAs....

              Also, both approaches would over look Deacon White.
              Last edited by dgarza; 12-11-2012, 05:16 AM.

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              • #8
                Johnny Kling might not be a slam dunk HOFer. but he definitely belongs among the top 44 at his position. I have him in my personal HOF. He was a pivotal player on the early Cubs World Series teams and one of the best catchers of his generation.

                As dgarza already mentioned, Bennett and McVey should be there and have a better case than a lot of these players.

                Another I did not see, but maybe I missed him is HOFer Deacon White. His best years came as a catcher.

                EDIT: Form another project, here is a loose ranking of catchers I have done (these are based on catching only; Torre would rank much higher if I included his entire playing career; Ferrell would rank toward the #75 mark):

                Johnny Bench
                Yogi Berra
                Roy Campanella
                Gary Carter
                Josh Gibson
                Mike Piazza
                ----------------------
                Mickey Cochrane
                Bill Dickey
                Carlton Fisk
                Ivan Rodriguez
                Louis Santop
                Deacon White
                ---------------------
                Buck Ewing
                Gabby Hartnett
                King Kelly
                Bill Freehan
                Jorge Posada
                Ted Simmons
                ---------------------
                Charlie Bennett
                Roger Bresnahan
                Johnny Kling
                Biz Mackey
                Joe Mauer
                Thurman Munson
                Wally Schang
                --Top25---
                Bob Boone
                Deacon McGuire
                Cal McVey
                Katsuya Nomura
                Joe Torre
                Quincy Trouppe
                ----HOF Line------
                Lance Parrish
                Darrel Porter
                Ray Schalk
                Last edited by jjpm74; 12-11-2012, 06:03 AM.

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                • #9
                  I think Steve O'Neill has an argument if you include his managerial career.

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                  • #10
                    thanks for the input. I'll keep updating as more comments come in. I'll give it a week. I chose 4000 at bats because no one has less than 4000 at bats at catcher and is in the hall of fame (the traditional way). The closest is Roy Campanella, so i rounded down to the nearest 1000. I figured a player receives about 400 at bats a year as a catcher times 10 years (minimum eligibility) and i figure 4000 abs is a good number to start with. From here i'd like to cut out those that don't really matter to the discussion and maybe get it down to 40 players or so. I would then cut from the top and say these 10-15 catchers are no brainers and 99% of us believe that way, maybe even a consensus. This would leave us with 25-30 catchers to argue about and figure out which percentages of us would include the next group from 16-30, and then from 31 to 45. I'm guessing at the numbers. Deacon White I have listed as a 3B because, if memory serves, he had more games at 3b. Sorry i'm sure that's offensive-not meant that way, just looking at the data as where did he play the most...probably not a popular stance.

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                    • #11
                      zaun had about 3400 at bats-so sad, just missed.

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                      • #12
                        king kelly i have listed as an of-due to same reasons as deacon white.

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                        • #13
                          haller had 3935 at bats. heartbreaking i know.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by dgarza View Post
                            He's using ABs, But you used PAs....

                            Also, both approaches would over look Deacon White.
                            oh, right, head smack. Fortunately, the Deacon's spot is secure.
                            Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

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