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Mule Suttles vs Jim Thome

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  • Mule Suttles vs Jim Thome

    And here, like the Josh vs Piazza thread: a great Negro League slugger vs a modern day similarish player. Any thoughts? Suttles was a beast.:crossfingers:

  • #2


    if that link does not work:
    George "Mule" Suttles
    George Suttles
    Nickname: Mule

    Career: 1918-1944
    Positions: 1b, rf, manager, umpire
    Teams: Birmingham Black Barons (1923-1925), St. Louis Stars (1926-1931), Baltimore Black Sox (1930), Detroit Wolves (1932), Washington Pilots (1932), Cole's American Giants (1933-1935), Newark Eagles (1936-1940, 1942-1944), Indianapolis ABCs (1939), New York Black Yankees (1941-1942)
    Bats: Right
    Throws: Right
    Height: 6' 3'' Weight: 215
    Born: March 2, 1901, Brockton, Louisiana
    Died: 1968, Newark, New Jersey
    National Baseball Hall of Fame Inductee (2006)

    A great power hitter who swung for distance while still maintaining a good average, Suttles, using a big 50-ounce bat, generated as much power as anyone in black baseball. Exemplifying this accomplishment are his stats after joining the St. Louis Stars in 1926, where he is credited with 26 home runs, a .432 batting average and a 1.000 slugging percentage, and his 1930 season statistics, showing a .384 batting average to pair with a .837 slugging percentage, which produced a home run for each 10.1 at bats.

    At St. Louis, Stars' Park, with the trolleycar barn in left field, was an inviting target for a right-handed pull hitter, but Suttles was so strong that he didn't need the benefit of the short left-field fence and accumulated his impressive power totals without pulling the ball.

    A free-swinger who struck out frequently, Suttles was a low-ball hitter with a big, powerful swing who hit towering tape-measure home runs that are still remembered by his teammates. The players would yell "Kick Mule!" and he would "kick" it out of the park. In Havana's Tropical Park, the centerfield fence is 60 feet high and more than 500 feet from the plate. Teammate Willie Wells recalled a gargantuan drive that carried over the heads of the soldiers on horseback riding crowd control duty behind the fence, a total of about 600 feet. Afterward, a marker was placed at the spot, commemorating the prodigious homer.

    Leon Day remembers the day Suttles hit one over the centerfield fence in Washington's Griffith Stadium, and Ray Dandridge recalls a game in Louisville when one of Suttles's towering flies traveled more than 500 feet but was caught in deepest centerfield. Another teammate told of a game in 1929 when Suttles hit 3 home runs in a single inning against the Memphis Red Sox, and the next time he came to the plate, the Memphis team walked off the field.

    With limited mobility, the hulking slugger's play afield was not impressive, either at first base or in the outfield. However, while not a graceful first sacker, he did handle everything he could reach, and his fielding was more than sufficient to complement his batting prowess.

    The big right-hander's heavy hitting solidified his presence in the heart of the lineups of some of black baseball's best teams. As an outfielder for the St. Louis Stars, Suttles hit .355 in 1929, and he supplied the power for the Stars to win championships in 1928, 1930, and 1931. In the 1928 championship playoffs against the Chicago American Giants he had a excellent Series at the plate and helped slug the Stars to a championship.

    The 1931 pennant was the last in the history of the first Negro National League, with the league falling victim to the Depression, and the Stars' own demise closely following. After the Stars disbanded, Suttles jumped from one team to another, playing with the Washington Pilots and the Detroit Stars before eventually joining Robert A. Cole's Chicago American Giants.

    In Chicago, manager Dave Malarcher corrected the slugger's tendency to overswing, and Suttles responded with a .315 batting average while generating a home run for each 13.5 at bats to help power the club to the 1933 championship. During the ensuing winter he continued his power production, counting 14 home runs among his hits on the way to a .325 batting average in the Cuban League.

    When financial difficulties befell the American Giants in 1936, Suttles joined the Newark Eagles as a first baseman and became a part of the celebrated "million-dollar infield" of 1937, while hitting .356 and averaging a homer for each 12.7 at bats. Obviously the slugger had found a second home, and his numbers indicate the success he enjoyed in Newark. His marks show a .396 batting average and 36 home runs in 1936, a .420 batting average and 26 home runs in 1938, and a .325 average in 1939.

    These marks earned the slugger two more East-West All Star appearances to go with the three he had made with Chicago. He was also picked for the 1938 All Star game but was withheld from the contest by the Eagles, and when the East lost, second-guessers were furious. Suttles, who liked to hit in clutch situations and was considered by teammate Willie Wells to be the best 1-run hitter ever, was one of the first All Star game heroes, clouting 2 homers in dramatic fashion.

    In the inaugural game, he hit the first home run in All Star competition to lead the West to victory. Two years later, Suttles resorted to trickery to set the stage for an even more dramatic home run. In the eleventh inning, with Josh Gibson at the plate, 2 outs, and the winning run on second base, Suttles had pitcher Sug Cornelius kneel in the on deck circle to fool the East brain trust into thinking he was the next batter, so they would intentionally walk Gibson. The ploy worked and Gibson was purposely passed to pitch to Cornelius. But it was really Suttles who was the next batter, and he provided the crowd with a Hollywood ending, with a towering shot off Martin Dihigo for another West victory. Although Suttles, who usually swung from the heels, was not a high-contact hitter, the totals for his five years of All Star competition show a .412 batting average and an incredible .883 slugging percentage.

    In April 1939 he was "loaned" to the Indianapolis ABCs to play a game against the Homestead Grays. Their owner, Cum Posey, was incensed at the tactic and protested vehemently. Suttles was also often sought for barnstorming tours. In an exhibition game against major leaguers with Chicago Cubs' pitcher Big Jim Weaver on the mound, Suttles singled, doubled, and tripled. When he came up to bat for the fourth time, Weaver asked shortstop Leo Durocher how to pitch to the big slugger and Durocher answered, "Just pitch and pray." The advice was well founded, as Suttles is credited with a .374 lifetime batting average in exhibitions against major-leaguers.

    The prodigious home runs hit by the big Louisiana native were powered by muscles developed in the coal mines of Birmingham, where Suttles played semi-pro ball on the mining teams of the area. These teams would form the nucleus for the Birmingham Black Barons in later years, and Suttles' older brother Charles was also a good player but broke his leg in the mines the same year that he was supposed to report to the Negro National League. Suttles was more fortunate and began his professional career at age seventeen. He played twenty-six years before bowing out as an active player, leaving behind a .338 lifetime average in league play. His longevity may be attributed to his outlook on life, which he expressed, "Don't worry about the Mule going blind, just load the wagon and give me the lines."

    In 1941 the Eagles traded Suttles to the New York Black Yankees during the summer, but he returned during the next season, and in 1943 he was given the Eagles' managerial reins. As a manager he controlled his emotions on the field and was a patient hitting instructor. Off the field he was a gentle person, but jovial and frequently joking and kidding around. After retiring from baseball he lived in Newark until he died from cancer in 1968. He told the younger players, "When I die, have a little thought for my memory, but don't mourn too much." Suttles was inducted posthumously into the National Baseball Hall of Fame in 2006.

    Source: James A. Riley, The Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Baseball Leagues, New York: Carroll & Graf Publishers, Inc., 1994.

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    • #3
      Some more on Mule Suttles and converting him to MLB equivalents can be found on his page for BB Think Factory: http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/.../mule_suttles/

      Basically, they liken Suttles to Willie Stargell. He's in that kind of company, which ain't bad, but I'd prefer Thome.
      Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
      Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
      A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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      • #4
        --I prefer Stargell to Thome so I guess you can count me as a Suttles backer here . Stargell stood out more in his own time than Thome has in his. Suttles was also a brighter star, with considerably better raw numbers than either. Of course, as always with Negro Leaguers, the completeness/acuracy of stats and quality of competition makes it difficult (or even impossible) to make a reliable comparison.
        --My totally subjective method of adding Negro Leaguers to my rankings is to insert one in each group of 10. So Josh Gibson makes my top 10, Oscar Charleston top 20, Pop Lloyd top 30, etc. The further down the list you go the less certain I am about the order, but Suttles is probably somewhere in the top 10 of Negro League position player or top 100 combined NeL/MLB position players. I don't think Thome makes my top 100, although I am conservative in evaluating active players so maybe he should (and Thome is close enough to the end that his career can probably be safely reviewed now).

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        • #5
          Thome is a beast. I have Thome in the top 20 all-time as hitters, when factoring in league quality. I have Thome>Piazza>Gibson>Suttles as far as hitting goes.

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          • #6
            Pheasant,

            Interesting thought on Thome being rated as such a great hitter. I didn't think anyone thinks of him as highly as I do. I have him in my top 30-35 hittters, still getting my overall rankings together, so not sure about top 20.

            I have him ranked 5th/6th overall in first basemen.

            Gehrig
            Foxx
            Pujols
            Bagwell
            Frank Thomas/Jim Thome (I keep flip flopping Thomas' peak value versus a very slight Thome career value and defense value).


            Where do you have him ranked overall in terms of first base?


            I have the four modern first basemen ranked high considering the strength of the current era position and that they had to go up against so many proven steroid guys (Giambi, Palmeiro, McGwire) in terms of comparisons.

            All things being neutral, I consider Thome the second best home run hitter ever behind Babe Ruth in the majors. First time I saw him playing the White Sox in the early 1990's, I sat up in my chair, said "who is that?" and wanted him on my team. My favorite player ever to watch swing the bat.
            Last edited by Toledo Inquisition; 12-13-2012, 11:09 AM.
            If the White Sox has not traded Sammy Sosa, they'd have probably won a few more World Series. (Chadwick)
            Play the Who am I? game in trivia and you can make this signature line yours for 3 days (baseball signatures only!)

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            • #7
              Overall ranking in terms of first base, I have the following order:

              Albert Pujols: fielding and league quality adjustment inches him past Gehrig
              Lou Gehrig: is way ahead of #3
              Jeff Bagwell: decent defense, good baserunning squeaks him into 3rd place
              Jimmie Foxx: best comp is Bagwell-near coinflip with Bags
              Frank Thomas: 3rd best hitting 1st basement, but rotten fielding takes its toll.
              Jim Thome: Thome is barely behind Thomas. Thomas' peak sealed the deal.

              Basically, I have Gehrig and Pujols nearly even. But then the gap between #2 and #3 is bigger than the gap between #3 and #6.

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              • #8
                Thanks for that PV, very good bio on Mule. I got to thinking 'Stargell' too. Thome underrated to say the least. Suttles doesn't get his due, he deserves a better rating than he gets usually.

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                • #9
                  Where would Thome's value be if he stayed at 3B for the majority of his career? Would he be in comparisons with Eddie Mathews?
                  "Chuckie doesn't take on 2-0. Chuckie's hackin'." - Chuck Carr two days prior to being released by the Milwaukee Brewers

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                  • #10
                    Ben,

                    How close do most people think Mathews is to Mike Schmidt? Very close or somewhat close? I have Mike Schmidt as my number one to Mathews' number two ranking, with a decent (not huge though) spacing between them. I think Thome would be almost dead even between Schmidt and Mathews if Thome played third every day at an okay defensive level, which is of course a huge unknown. In the same parks and era, I think Thome would have a power edge, with all three having roughly the same batting and walk taking skills. In my lifetime, I've never seen a player with such crazy homerun power. Schmidt would have the speed and defense amonst the three.

                    I just don't see Thome's bad back and body type (weight) allowing him to do it though, even if his managers allowed it. Starting in about 2005, his back would have forced him from third regardless.
                    If the White Sox has not traded Sammy Sosa, they'd have probably won a few more World Series. (Chadwick)
                    Play the Who am I? game in trivia and you can make this signature line yours for 3 days (baseball signatures only!)

                    Go here for a link to all player links! http://www.baseball-fever.com/forum/...player-threads

                    Go here for all your 1920's/1930's OF info

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post
                      All things being neutral, I consider Thome the second best home run hitter ever behind Babe Ruth in the majors. First time I saw him playing the White Sox in the early 1990's, I sat up in my chair, said "who is that?" and wanted him on my team. My favorite player ever to watch swing the bat.
                      I love watching Thome too. My Twins only got him for 1 1/2 seasons. During is one full season here(only 108 games), he set Twins' records with a .623 slugging pct and HR%(1 every 11 at-bats). He might very well have been the 2nd best clean HR hitter ever. And he also had the ability to blast 500+ foot HRs.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post
                        Ben,

                        How close do most people think Mathews is to Mike Schmidt? Very close or somewhat close? I have Mike Schmidt as my number one to Mathews' number two ranking, with a decent (not huge though) spacing between them. I think Thome would be almost dead even between Schmidt and Mathews if Thome played third every day at an okay defensive level, which is of course a huge unknown. In the same parks and era, I think Thome would have a power edge, with all three having roughly the same batting and walk taking skills. In my lifetime, I've never seen a player with such crazy homerun power. Schmidt would have the speed and defense amonst the three.

                        I just don't see Thome's bad back and body type (weight) allowing him to do it though, even if his managers allowed it. Starting in about 2005, his back would have forced him from third regardless.
                        Your first question is tough for me to answer as I grew up watching Schmidt play live at the Vet. But Thome was only marginal with the glove, which is why i brought up Mathews (although he was better than marginal, but known better for his offense). I'm thinking Thome could be in the mix with Brett, Mathews and Chipper since none were well above average at 3B but they posessed great offensive talent. That said, he could have ended up a top-5 3B IMO had he been able to stay there - simply based on his offensive output. Maybe a modern day Killebrew.
                        "Chuckie doesn't take on 2-0. Chuckie's hackin'." - Chuck Carr two days prior to being released by the Milwaukee Brewers

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                        • #13
                          There is no doubt that Thome's glove was (and would have been) marginal. I think there is honest room to debate who was a better hitter, Thome or Schmidt, but Schmidt's glove work was so far ahead, that Schmidt would be ahead of Thome even if you think Thome a better hitter.

                          To be honest, I think Schmidt, Thome, and Matthews are underrated in general. I really need to start picking it up and work on my rankings.
                          If the White Sox has not traded Sammy Sosa, they'd have probably won a few more World Series. (Chadwick)
                          Play the Who am I? game in trivia and you can make this signature line yours for 3 days (baseball signatures only!)

                          Go here for a link to all player links! http://www.baseball-fever.com/forum/...player-threads

                          Go here for all your 1920's/1930's OF info

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                          • #14
                            Lots of Thome love here. Top 20 hitter all time? Hmmmm. What hurts him for me is that he was never really a consistent .300 hitter. I do not put him on the same level as Frank Thomas or Manny Ramirez as a hitter.

                            I put Thome, Chipper Jones, Barry Bonds, Gary Sheffield, Vlad Guerrero, Edgar Martinez, Jeff Bagwell, A-rod, and Piazza at about the same level offensively. I would be hard pressed to even rank them as far as just hitting goes. They all have advantages/disadvantages. I would tend to put Piazza above them all as a pure hitter at his peak due to his massive road numbers and high batting average. Put him in Fenway his entire career and you have Jimmie Foxx.
                            Last edited by willshad; 12-21-2012, 11:59 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Yeah, I do love Thome, but I recognize this his average wasn't anything special (especially versus LHP). I'm guessing I'd have him rated 25th-30th all time, with 30th as my best guess right now.

                              I do discount known steroid users, as their entire stat line is in question in my opinion. Also Sheffield intentionally tried to lose a game. I don't know why the Commissioner didn't ban him for life. Willshad, I don't remember how you sit on those issues.

                              I watched Frank Thomas his entire career, and Thome a lot when he was in Cleveland and here in Chicago. It depends on how you look at them for value. If you are looking for a peak, I'd take FT for a 7 year period, but if you are picking any random year in a career, I'd take Thome. I think Thome's career is at least even with Thomas'. If I had to fill out a lineup, FT would be my pick in 7 years, but any other random time than that, I'd go with Thome. I think Thome held his value much longer. As crazy as this sounds, Thome does get a decent positional advantage over Thomas for career overall value.

                              Both guys are hurt majorly from a career value - McGwire, Giambi, and Palmiero bumping up the first base average value decreases that of Bagwell, Thomas, and Thome in my opinion. If the proven steroid guys weren't users, I think Bagwell, Thomas and Thome would be much larger legends to the average person.

                              PS - are there any posters who saw any Negro Leaguers play? I thought somone saw Babe Ruth play? I vaguely remember seeing that here on this site. I'd be interested in their observations. There are many players that I like to see their swing before giving my scouting report. Slow bat, hole in swing, quick reflexes, etc - especially when the numbers are dubious or compared on a different basis.
                              Last edited by Toledo Inquisition; 12-21-2012, 12:59 PM.
                              If the White Sox has not traded Sammy Sosa, they'd have probably won a few more World Series. (Chadwick)
                              Play the Who am I? game in trivia and you can make this signature line yours for 3 days (baseball signatures only!)

                              Go here for a link to all player links! http://www.baseball-fever.com/forum/...player-threads

                              Go here for all your 1920's/1930's OF info

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