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  • Hideki Matsui

    I'm sorry if there's already a thread on Matsui. I couldn't find one.

    Now that he's retired, I'd like to examine his HOF case. Obviously if we only look at the MLB numbers he doesn't have a case, but if we consider his Japanese League numbers he's got over 500 career home runs.

    I'm sure he'll never get in - at least not any time soon - but would you consider Matsui's Japanese seasons and support Matsui for the Hall Of Fame?
    39
    I consider Matsui's NPB (Japan) and MLB stats and would support him for the HOF.
    5.13%
    2
    I only consider Matsui's MLB stats so I don't support him for the HOF.
    58.97%
    23
    I only consider Matsui's MLB stats but would still support him for the HOF.
    0%
    0
    I consider Matsui's NPB and MLB stats, but still don't feel he's HOF worthy.
    35.90%
    14
    My top 10 players:

    1. Babe Ruth
    2. Barry Bonds
    3. Ty Cobb
    4. Ted Williams
    5. Willie Mays
    6. Alex Rodriguez
    7. Hank Aaron
    8. Honus Wagner
    9. Lou Gehrig
    10. Mickey Mantle

  • #2
    I think if more of Matsui's stats were major league stats he may have had a chance. But they weren't so he has zero shot at the HoF. I think he will get inducted to the Japanese Baseball Hall of Fame, though.
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

    Comment


    • #3
      Not close.

      In the majors, where we have the most data for him, he was a very good hitter. Typically, 20-30% better than the league average.

      Be he was horrific on defense - losing a lot of value. His best MLB season was 3 fWAR.

      http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...on=DH/OF#value

      Comment


      • #4
        For more modern Japanese players, if they aren't strong all-star caliber for a few years in the majors, there's no way they're going to make the Hall. Ichiro had those strong years, which gives more credence to his Japanese play. H. Matsui didn't match that.
        Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
        Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
        A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by jalbright View Post
          For more modern Japanese players, if they aren't strong all-star caliber for a few years in the majors, there's no way they're going to make the Hall. Ichiro had those strong years, which gives more credence to his Japanese play. H. Matsui didn't match that.
          I think Matsui's large drop in home power coming over to the majors will be held against him.
          Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

          Comment


          • #6
            Given what he's done in both the US and Japan, and given the context of each batting environment, Matsui is kind of in the Moises Alou mold.

            Matsui was a DH in the US about a third of his games.
            Last edited by dgarza; 12-27-2012, 02:47 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              I think there should be a World Hall of Fame, not associated with the regular Hall of Fame, to deal with guys like this. The regular Hall of Fame should primarily exist for American baseball and those associated with it--it's something we as Americans (and Canadians) have actual connections to. Saduharu Oh, Matsui's Japanese career...they're just names, just numbers on paper. They have little to no real connection to our society or cultural fabric. Our grandfathers likely never saw them play, we cannot so easily be regaled by our great granddad about their feats. They played a world away, one that even with the advances in modern transportation and technology, like the Internet, is still so different and distant to the average fan.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Cowtipper View Post
                I think there should be a World Hall of Fame, not associated with the regular Hall of Fame, to deal with guys like this. The regular Hall of Fame should primarily exist for American baseball and those associated with it--it's something we as Americans (and Canadians) have actual connections to. Saduharu Oh, Matsui's Japanese career...they're just names, just numbers on paper. They have little to no real connection to our society or cultural fabric. Our grandfathers likely never saw them play, we cannot so easily be regaled by our great granddad about their feats. They played a world away, one that even with the advances in modern transportation and technology, like the Internet, is still so different and distant to the average fan.
                Much like the NeL players.

                I understand what your saying. Not trying to say it is a race issue. Just pointing out NeL players were in a sort of similar boat.

                I lean towards inducting Oh and including NPB play when Ichiro and Matsui [still not enough] are eligible. Only for the select few, most dominant players though. And the pioneers, like the reliever for the Giants in the 60's [HWR where are you! :atthepc].

                Why not appoint a special committee?
                Last edited by bluesky5; 12-27-2012, 03:34 PM. Reason: grammar
                "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                  I lean towards inducting Oh and including NPB play when Ichiro and Matsui [still not enough] are eligible. Only for the select few, most dominant players though. And the pioneers, like the reliever for the Giants in the 60's [HWR where are you! :atthepc].

                  Why not appoint a special committee?
                  You're searching for the name Masanori Murakami. Murakami was a nice reliever in the States, and may well have flourished in that role. However, in Japan, they wanted him to be an ace starter, and he wasn't up to that. Eventually, he did get to relieve in Japan and again had some success.
                  Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                  Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                  A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by jalbright View Post
                    You're searching for the name Masanori Murakami. Murakami was a nice reliever in the States, and may well have flourished in that role. However, in Japan, they wanted him to be an ace starter, and he wasn't up to that. Eventually, he did get to relieve in Japan and again had some success.
                    That's right! Thanks, I knew it was alliterative. Didn't have time to look it up at that moment though.
                    "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                      I think if more of Matsui's stats were major league stats he may have had a chance. But they weren't so he has zero shot at the HoF. I think he will get inducted to the Japanese Baseball Hall of Fame, though.
                      Agreed, Matsui doesn't have a shot at being inducted into Cooperstown. Although, at least he's eligible for the HoF. He should make the Japanese Baseball Hall of Fame, but that's it.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                        I think if more of Matsui's stats were major league stats he may have had a chance. But they weren't so he has zero shot at the HoF. I think he will get inducted to the Japanese Baseball Hall of Fame, though.
                        Agreed, Matsui doesn't have a shot at being inducted into Cooperstown. Although, at least he's eligible for the HoF. He should make the Japanese Baseball Hall of Fame, but that's it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Matsui had a career .590 OWP; his two best seasons were .678 and .650. If he were at the .678 level for his career, he'd be a "maybe", but he's at a .590 OWP level. That's the level of, say, a second baseman who plays decently in the field and has some pop in his bat. That's the level of a Gold Glove shortstop. Matsui is a corner outfielder; his stats are above replacement level, but if Hideki Matsui were the best player on your team, it would likely not win the pennant.

                          I'm not willing to consider Matsui's numbers in Japan at this time because of the general dropoff by each Japanese star that has recently signed with an MLB team. Only Ichiro Suzuki was a superstar here. Matsui was a quality regular, but a log of the others have been busts (Kaz Matsui, Kenji Johijima, Dice-K). If the Japanese Leagues are, indeed, major leagues, they are very marginal major leagues at this point. This is an issue I would be willing to revisit, especially for someone such as Sadaharu Oh, but Matsui did not play in whiat I would consider a true major league until he came to the US.
                          Last edited by Fuzzy Bear; 12-29-2012, 08:47 AM.
                          "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

                          NL President Ford Frick, 1947

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I believe the Hall of Fame is national-so it would include the Negro leagues, but not Japan.

                            If you were to include Japanese stats though, how would you weight them?

                            Based on the dominance in recent years of Matt Murton, Lastings Milledge, Wladimar Balentin, and Willy Mo Pena, I would have to say Japan is quite inferior to the major leagues.

                            So that would bring up the question: Should we consider minor league stats when judging players for the Hall of Fame? I vote no.
                            Chop! Chop! Chop!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Bigfoot 88 View Post
                              I believe the Hall of Fame is national-so it would include the Negro leagues, but not Japan.

                              If you were to include Japanese stats though, how would you weight them?

                              Based on the dominance in recent years of Matt Murton, Lastings Milledge, Wladimar Balentin, and Willy Mo Pena, I would have to say Japan is quite inferior to the major leagues.

                              So that would bring up the question: Should we consider minor league stats when judging players for the Hall of Fame? I vote no.
                              Where, talent-wise, do the Japenese Leagues stand, vis a vis MLB and AAA? And how close to MLB do they have to be to be considered "major league"? The answers to these questions are relevant to this discussion.
                              "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

                              NL President Ford Frick, 1947

                              Comment

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