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  • #31
    It's almost impossible for a position player to be a deserving hall of famer with an OPS+ of 82. Here's a list of highest WAR with OPS+ of 84 or less.
    Code:
    Rk               Player WAR/pos OPS+ Rfield    PA From   To
    1         Luis Aparicio    55.6   82  147.0 11230 1956 1973 H
    2          Omar Vizquel    45.2   82  129.0 12013 1989 2012
    3     Rabbit Maranville    42.8   82  130.0 11254 1912 1935 H
    4         Mark Belanger    40.8   68  240.0  6601 1965 1982
    5        Bill Mazeroski    36.2   84  146.0  8379 1956 1972 H
    6          Marty Marion    31.5   81  130.0  6143 1940 1953
    7          Bill Russell    31.4   83   73.0  8021 1969 1986
    8          Billy Jurges    30.9   82  113.0  7015 1931 1947
    9            Ray Schalk    28.4   83   46.0  6239 1912 1929 H
    10            Bob Boone    27.4   82  106.0  8148 1972 1990
    11         Mike Bordick    26.6   83   68.0  6484 1990 2003
    Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

    Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Freakshow View Post
      It's almost impossible for a position player to be a deserving hall of famer with an OPS+ of 82. Here's a list of highest WAR with OPS+ of 84 or less.
      Code:
      Rk               Player WAR/pos OPS+ Rfield    PA From   To
      1         Luis Aparicio    55.6   82  147.0 11230 1956 1973 H
      2          Omar Vizquel    45.2   82  129.0 12013 1989 2012
      3     Rabbit Maranville    42.8   82  130.0 11254 1912 1935 H
      4         Mark Belanger    40.8   68  240.0  6601 1965 1982
      5        Bill Mazeroski    36.2   84  146.0  8379 1956 1972 H
      6          Marty Marion    31.5   81  130.0  6143 1940 1953
      7          Bill Russell    31.4   83   73.0  8021 1969 1986
      8          Billy Jurges    30.9   82  113.0  7015 1931 1947
      9            Ray Schalk    28.4   83   46.0  6239 1912 1929 H
      10            Bob Boone    27.4   82  106.0  8148 1972 1990
      11         Mike Bordick    26.6   83   68.0  6484 1990 2003
      4 of the 11 that you cite are in the hall. 36% is a far cry from "impossible."

      and where's Ozzie Smith?
      This week's Giant

      #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

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      • #33
        Ozzie ran an 87 OPS+ and 90 wRC+.
        Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
        http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
          4 of the 11 that you cite are in the hall. 36% is a far cry from "impossible."

          and where's Ozzie Smith?
          You've taken Freakshow's "deserving" and made it "impossible."

          None of the guys from Freakshow's list are clearly "deserving," although I am warming to Aparicio's case.

          Luis has a lot of career value but no peak, but he is awesome in contextual RE24, he's a neutral 27 wins below replacement but only 3 with RE24, his clutch score is 0.9.

          If you take the RE24 at face value, adding 24 wins makes him clearly "deserving."
          If you average the 2 scores, he adds ~12 wins, and is at least interesting, particularly if the metrics are underrating his defense or baserunning in some way.

          Shortstop was weak in his time era, but he has a legitimate claim for best shortstop during his prime.
          Was the position unusually difficult during that time to excel at (style of game, artificial turf, etc.) that makes us underrate Aparicio?

          Would appreciate everyone's thoughts, thanks
          Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
          http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post
            Ozzie ran an 87 OPS+ and 90 wRC+.
            And added enough baserunning value that his relative run creation value was closer to 92 OPS+ and 95 wRC+.

            Ozzie was SIGNIFICANLTY better offensively than these other guys.
            1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

            1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

            1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


            The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
            The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post
              You've taken Freakshow's "deserving" and made it "impossible."

              None of the guys from Freakshow's list are clearly "deserving," although I am warming to Aparicio's case.

              Luis has a lot of career value but no peak, but he is awesome in contextual RE24, he's a neutral 27 wins below replacement but only 3 with RE24, his clutch score is 0.9.

              If you take the RE24 at face value, adding 24 wins makes him clearly "deserving."
              If you average the 2 scores, he adds ~12 wins, and is at least interesting, particularly if the metrics are underrating his defense or baserunning in some way.

              Shortstop was weak in his time era, but he has a legitimate claim for best shortstop during his prime.
              Was the position unusually difficult during that time to excel at (style of game, artificial turf, etc.) that makes us underrate Aparicio?

              Would appreciate everyone's thoughts, thanks
              I actually think that the HOFers on that list are deserving. I would add Marion to the HOF list too, as he was by all accounts, a fantastic SS. Aparicio is a no brainer. He was a terrific SS, a decent hitter(.260s), a great base stealer , and extremely durable. He was a BBWAA selection.
              This week's Giant

              #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

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              • #37
                If you compare Boone to his contemporaries using a super simplified relative OPS you can see that he is hovering around average. His peak is from '76-79 where his OPS adjusted using his contemporaries (and totally simplified only looking at players who played at least 3/4 of their games at catcher and played at least 75 games) ranges from 104-109 (100 meaning average). Not super great, but not terrible either.

                his lowest is 83.8 in 1986.

                So how good at defense does he need to be to be an average hitter for his position?
                Last edited by sturg1dj; 04-19-2017, 09:02 AM.
                "Batting stats and pitching stats do not indicate the quality of play, merely which part of that struggle is dominant at the moment."

                -Bill James

                Comment


                • #38
                  Longevity is a big deal, especially when using a rate stat like OPS+. At least until you reach replacement level, more production, even below average, has value--and OPS+ does not account for defense. It's no accident that almost all of the guys in Freakshow's list are middle infielders or catchers, guys with larger defensive responsibilities. For Boone, the guys with over 10000 PA just aren't a reasonable comparison. There are only two position player Hall of Famers who have an OPS+ in the same range or lower than Boone's with less than 10,000 PA: Schalk, also a catcher and with less PA, and Mazeroski, a 2B with a similar PA total. I tend to regard both as mistakes, but the best argument for Boone would be one that persuasively makes the argument he had the same kind of defensive value as those two. I don't think I'd buy it even then, but I think a catcher who caught as many games as Boone did would have a lot of defensive value--and seven Gold Gloves at catcher support that notion. That's what keeps Boone's case from being a "joke" as far as I'm concerned.
                  Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                  Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                  A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by jalbright View Post
                    Longevity is a big deal, especially when using a rate stat like OPS+. At least until you reach replacement level, more production, even below average, has value--and OPS+ does not account for defense. It's no accident that almost all of the guys in Freakshow's list are middle infielders or catchers, guys with larger defensive responsibilities. For Boone, the guys with over 10000 PA just aren't a reasonable comparison. There are only two position player Hall of Famers who have an OPS+ in the same range or lower than Boone's with less than 10,000 PA: Schalk, also a catcher and with less PA, and Mazeroski, a 2B with a similar PA total. I tend to regard both as mistakes, but the best argument for Boone would be one that persuasively makes the argument he had the same kind of defensive value as those two. I don't think I'd buy it even then, but I think a catcher who caught as many games as Boone did would have a lot of defensive value--and seven Gold Gloves at catcher support that notion. That's what keeps Boone's case from being a "joke" as far as I'm concerned.
                    Right, so that was my question for the group. Ignoring the precedents, how good defensively does an average batter need to be to be a hall of famer?
                    "Batting stats and pitching stats do not indicate the quality of play, merely which part of that struggle is dominant at the moment."

                    -Bill James

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by sturg1dj View Post
                      Right, so that was my question for the group. Ignoring the precedents, how good defensively does an average batter need to be to be a hall of famer?
                      Obviously pretty good, since so few have made primarily on their defense.
                      This week's Giant

                      #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by sturg1dj View Post
                        Right, so that was my question for the group. Ignoring the precedents, how good defensively does an average batter need to be to be a hall of famer?
                        Depends on longevity and position too. Maybe a VERY general rule of thumb is: an average hitting 1B, LF, or RF cannot be a HOFer regardless of defense. I mean the best defensive 1B ever (Hernandez) has a 125 OPS+ and is a borderline HOFer. An average hitting SS or C can be a HOFer with really good defense (but not historically great) for a very long time. A CF, 3B or 2B who is an average hitter needs to be a great defender for a very long time.

                        I don't know - something like that. Haven't really put too much thought into it.
                        1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                        1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                        1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                        The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                        The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
                          Obviously pretty good, since so few have made primarily on their defense.
                          Right, but can we be more specific? That is basically the roundabout question that is being posed in this thread.
                          "Batting stats and pitching stats do not indicate the quality of play, merely which part of that struggle is dominant at the moment."

                          -Bill James

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by sturg1dj View Post
                            Right, but can we be more specific? That is basically the roundabout question that is being posed in this thread.
                            I have my reservations about defense, especially catcher defense, lending itself to specifics.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by sturg1dj View Post
                              Right, but can we be more specific? That is basically the roundabout question that is being posed in this thread.
                              Probably the closest I can come is from Boone's own WAR and WAA breakdown.

                              His OPS+ translated to -183 runs batting in 8148 PA. He's also minus 33 for his career as a baserunner and minus 14 for hitting into double plays. I don't think those numbers are remarkable for a guy who caught that long. He caught 2225 games, which they say amounted to 18,459 innings caught. He gets a position advantage over average of 134 for that. He's 105 runs above the average catcher, which leaves him 9 runs above average for his career.

                              He's losing about a run batting per 45 plate appearances

                              He's getting about a PA per 2.25 innings caught, so he's losing a run per 101 innings caught or so. He gets back one run against average per about 138 innings caught in the position adjustment. He's losing what 1.37 runs batting in those 138 innings, He's losing another .35 runs in those innings caught to baserunning and double plays. So as an average defensive catcher with his baserunning skills he's down about .72 runs per 138 innings caught, and WAR says he made it up with a little to spare. Now, there are many questions about how well WAR measures catcher's defense,
                              Last edited by jalbright; 04-19-2017, 07:29 PM.
                              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

                                4 of the 11 that you cite are in the hall. 36% is a far cry from "impossible."

                                and where's Ozzie Smith?
                                Ozzie was "Mr. OBP" for a while. During his best years, Ozzie was actually the best OFFENSIVE shortstop in the NL. Ozzie is WAY better than the guys on that list.
                                "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

                                NL President Ford Frick, 1947

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