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When great players are omitted from the HOF, does that hurt the player or the HOF?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by SamtheBravesFan View Post
    Exactly. Any inquistive kid wanting answers is going to ask why Pete Rose's plaque is not there. As GiambiJuice points out, it'd be a great example of showing how actions have consequences: "Pete Rose was a great player, but he broke the rules about gambling, so he doesn't get a plaque." That would be enough to satisfy most kids.
    Then the kid will be quick to proclaim that it's not a hall of the greatest players, but a hall of the greatest players who never broke any rules.
    Holding a pitcher accountable for how many runs his team scores is like holding the designated hitter accountable for how many runs his team allows.

    An individual statistic is meaningful only if it is based strictly on what the player does and not on what the other players on his team do.

    Contrary to what most baseball fans claim, a pitched ball which is hit into play is not a strike.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by BiZmaRK View Post
      Then the kid will be quick to proclaim that it's not a hall of the greatest players, but a hall of the greatest players who never broke any rules.
      Oh please. Only weird kids like I was would think something like that; that wouldn't occur to most of them.
      46 wins to match last year's total

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      • #18
        And then dad will say no son you can see his name over there where they list the hits leaders (there is such a thing or so I have heard) and presumably there are WS clips, perhaps the NL hitting streak bat." "But a plaque is honoring someone and we don't honor rulebreakers and neither should you son here or outside here." (here come the Ty Cobb was a dick cries).

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Ben Grimm View Post
          We could see this season, if nobody gets in of course, Cooperstown taking a major financial hit as the induction weekend is surely a huge money-maker for that town.

          I've said for years, and still believe, that Pete Rose gains more attention by not being in than he will when/if he finally gets inducted. Two times a year - election time and induction time - his name is mentioned hundreds of times in the media and on forums like this one. He actually remains relevant by not being in.
          Bingo! We have a winner. Rose is despicable betting on the games he wants to win while the other games are...unimportant unless Pete can line his pockets and keep himself in the lineup as a .245 with 0 HRs 1st. baseman. Keeping his name in conversation is more respect than this weasel deserves.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Steven Gallanter View Post
            Bingo! We have a winner. Rose is despicable betting on the games he wants to win while the other games are...unimportant unless Pete can line his pockets and keep himself in the lineup as a .245 with 0 HRs 1st. baseman. Keeping his name in conversation is more respect than this weasel deserves.
            I find Pete Rose's exclusion from the HOF something that hurts all.

            Rose's offenses are, essentially, that he bet on baseball. There is no evidence that he bet on his teams to lose. Two (2) NFL players who did the same thing (Hornung and Karras) were suspended for a year, but came back to play. Rose's punishment is disproportionate to what athletes who have done the same thing have been dealt with.

            There is no evidence that Rose threw games, or conspired to throw games, or had knowledge of games being thrown and kept it to himself. This is what differentiates him from the Black Sox; the fact that Rose always made an honest effort to win, and the Black Sox didn't.

            Rose is an overrated superstar, and he is, I agree, a sleazeball on a number of levels. But he's the all time hits leader, and he did the things associated with greatness. His omission from the Hall is not really defensible, IMO, and causes a hole in history. And the hole in history is going to be even larger if the PED moralists get their way. We will end up with a HOF that will be devoid of the all-time hits leader, the all-time HR leader, and a pitcher (Clemens) who is considered a candidate for the #1 pitcher of all time. These guys didn't throw games, and while they did PEDs, the vast majority of MLB players did PEDs. I have little doubt about that; it's how 20 HRs per year became a standard for MIDDLE INFIELDERS.

            The Black Sox threw games. The other misguided souls did what they needed to do to win, and did what others were routinely doing to win. That's not an excuse, but it is an historical context. The HOF should reflect MLB history and perpetuate the fame of the great players. I'm more than a little apprehensive that the uber-moralists are trying to create a HOF that will distort the history is is a custodian of.
            "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

            NL President Ford Frick, 1947

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            • #21
              Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
              "But a plaque is honoring someone and we don't honor rulebreakers and neither should you son here or outside here." (here come the Ty Cobb was a dick cries).
              Then why is there no groundswell to remove Gaylord Perry's plaque?
              "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

              NL President Ford Frick, 1947

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear View Post
                I find Pete Rose's exclusion from the HOF something that hurts all.

                Rose's offenses are, essentially, that he bet on baseball. There is no evidence that he bet on his teams to lose. Two (2) NFL players who did the same thing (Hornung and Karras) were suspended for a year, but came back to play. Rose's punishment is disproportionate to what athletes who have done the same thing have been dealt with.

                There is no evidence that Rose threw games, or conspired to throw games, or had knowledge of games being thrown and kept it to himself. This is what differentiates him from the Black Sox; the fact that Rose always made an honest effort to win, and the Black Sox didn't.

                Rose is an overrated superstar, and he is, I agree, a sleazeball on a number of levels. But he's the all time hits leader, and he did the things associated with greatness. His omission from the Hall is not really defensible, IMO, and causes a hole in history. And the hole in history is going to be even larger if the PED moralists get their way. We will end up with a HOF that will be devoid of the all-time hits leader, the all-time HR leader, and a pitcher (Clemens) who is considered a candidate for the #1 pitcher of all time. These guys didn't throw games, and while they did PEDs, the vast majority of MLB players did PEDs. I have little doubt about that; it's how 20 HRs per year became a standard for MIDDLE INFIELDERS.

                The Black Sox threw games. The other misguided souls did what they needed to do to win, and did what others were routinely doing to win. That's not an excuse, but it is an historical context. The HOF should reflect MLB history and perpetuate the fame of the great players. I'm more than a little apprehensive that the uber-moralists are trying to create a HOF that will distort the history is is a custodian of.
                Betting to win would lead to disproportionate use of upper level players in games that Rose bet on. What type of effect Rose's gambling had on the careers of his players is an aspect of rRose's misdeeds that isn't discussed too often here on BBF. Your assumption that there is "little doubt" about PEDs is just that. Having said that I think that Rose should remain out and Clemens should and eventually will be inducted.

                http://stevegallanter.wordpress.com
                Last edited by Steven Gallanter; 01-09-2013, 04:14 PM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear View Post
                  Then why is there no groundswell to remove Gaylord Perry's plaque?
                  I forgot Gaylord Perry and next Aaron used a greenie. And I once killed a fly so all murderers should be released from prison. This gets soooooo tired as does my line to those who think otherwise. It was an apparently less witty than I thought imaginary conversation following up on an imaginary conversation that was following up on an imaginary conversation. Sheesh.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by BiZmaRK View Post
                    Then the kid will be quick to proclaim that it's not a hall of the greatest players, but a hall of the greatest players who never broke any rules.
                    Doubt it. Most kids will want the rules followed, unless they're sociopathic. Then you've got another issue on your hands.
                    Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                    Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                    Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                    Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                    Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
                      Doubt it. Most kids will want the rules followed, unless they're sociopathic. Then you've got another issue on your hands.
                      Let's get this straight: The kid in this heart-tugging scene is played by Freddie Bartholomew, right? And Dad by Spencer Tracy.
                      Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Jackaroo Dave View Post
                        Let's get this straight: The kid in this heart-tugging scene is played by Freddie Bartholomew, right? And Dad by Spencer Tracy.
                        Right. Mickey Rooney is the guy at the ticket booth, with a certain bit of sadness to him.
                        Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                        Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                        Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                        Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                        Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

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                        • #27
                          and Judy Garland sings at the summer festival in the town square with her attractive sisters and everyone falls in love

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
                            and Judy Garland sings at the summer festival in the town square with her attractive sisters and everyone falls in love
                            Except for Edward Everett Horton, who plays the "knowing" reporter. He just soaks it all in.

                            You can't ignore consequences, Biz. Everyone was a drunk, or worse, behind that cheery 1940's scenery. The point is to identify which warts are the biggest and understand why some deserve more attention than others.
                            Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                            Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                            Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                            Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                            Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
                              Doubt it. Most kids will want the rules followed, unless they're sociopathic. Then you've got another issue on your hands.
                              As a veteran teacher and a father of two with a degree in psychology- this is absolutely correct. A majority of kids see things very black and white, and would expect the man who broke the "single laid out rule of what not to do or you will get banned from the MLB and everything related to it" to be banned. That is seen as justice in their eyes.
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                              The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
                                Doubt it. Most kids will want the rules followed, unless they're sociopathic. Then you've got another issue on your hands.
                                Precisely. That's why any thoughtful kid will see the Hall of Fame as a hall of the greatest players who never broke any rules rather than a hall of all the greatest players.
                                Holding a pitcher accountable for how many runs his team scores is like holding the designated hitter accountable for how many runs his team allows.

                                An individual statistic is meaningful only if it is based strictly on what the player does and not on what the other players on his team do.

                                Contrary to what most baseball fans claim, a pitched ball which is hit into play is not a strike.

                                Comment

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