Cheaters: John McGraw, Gaylord Perry and Roger Clemens

[zahavasdad]

In your opinion what is the difference between the cheating of John McGraw , Gaylord Perry and Roger Clemens.

They were all cheaters yet McGraw and Perry seem to have gotten a free pass on their cheating and Clemens is being Punished (Clemens (And Bonds are jerks, but so was Ty Cobb and Rogers Hornsby so that doesnt seem to an issue either

[fenrir]

Steroids are considered worse because they are a built in form of cheating. Every time you step onto the field as a steroid user, you are cheating.

[Ben Grimm]

The game was built on cheating, and as the money involved continues to rise, I don't expect it to stop any time soon.

[Bothrops Atrox]

I just wrote this on another thread:

Some writers are steroid pragmatists. They feel that PEDs had a much larger impact on outcome and stats and records than doctored ball or greenies and can compartmentalize the two completely. Maybe true or maybe not, but there is some logic there. I can live with that from the writers. But if that is the case, they need to look at Bonds and Palmero through different lenses.

Other writers are moralists - they care about the morality and "selfish intentions" behind the cheating and often site the "sportsmanship/morality" clause in the voting rules. For these writers, results should not matter - does failing at robbing a bank make one more moral than successfully robbing one? Those writers should exclude people with other moral issues (wife beaters, tax cheats, felons, etc.) and those who have been caught cheating in baseball in other ways (like corking or spittballing, amphetamines etc.). Largely, they do not since they would be forced to call out a whole lot of their sacred cows and would see a half-filled HOF - which is where the hypocrisy comes in.

These are two very different philosophies, but get lumped together most of the time.

[zahavasdad]

My problem with morailist is Cap Anson is in the Hall of Fame, Comiskey , Cobb and Ruth were no pillars of society either.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

My problem with morailist is Cap Anson is in the Hall of Fame, Comiskey , Cobb and Ruth were no pillars of society either.

Your missing the point, Cobb a racist certainly not MR. nice guy. The younger Babe party guy, liked the ladies, some prostitutes.
I might add everything Babe did was news in print, even when he caught cold. Others could do the same and no one cared or noticed.
But how does off the field activity compare to using chemicals to gain an edge on players playing by the rules.
Using chemicals efffects play on the field, off the field activity, two diffeernt worlds.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

In your opinion what is the difference between the cheating of John McGraw , Gaylord Perry and Roger Clemens.

They were all cheaters yet McGraw and Perry seem to have gotten a free pass on their cheating and Clemens is being Punished (Clemens (And Bonds are jerks, but so was Ty Cobb and Rogers Hornsby so that doesnt seem to an issue either

For some reason or another some just can't get the difference between wetting a pitch against the rule and taking a chemical, an advantage you have with you very game, can't be detected visually.
Might as well accept it, chemical use is considered more serious than equipment rule breaking................and it's not only baseball.
Do you think all sports got it wrong, heaviest penalties reserved for chemical use.

[zahavasdad]

Was it morally and legal for Ty Cobb to Spike opposing players in order to hurt them, Was it moral and legal for John McGraw to grab opposing players belts in order to slow them down?

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Was it morally and legal for Ty Cobb to Spike opposing players in order to hurt them, Was it moral and legal for John McGraw to grab opposing players belts in order to slow them down?

No I don't condone Ty for coming in with spikes high or some of McGraws antics. But thats not enough to deny a player the HOF.

[Ben Grimm]

Was it morally and legal for Ty Cobb to Spike opposing players in order to hurt them, Was it moral and legal for John McGraw to grab opposing players belts in order to slow them down?

Tough to compare values between players of yesteryear to those of today. It was a different world back then. The game was played mostly by uneducated men straight out the mines or off construction sites. Today, players are much more aware of what's around them. News travels much faster and many are either college educated or were on their way to college before they were drafted. The only similarity, is that even today, some players will do what they have to in order to succeed.

[3and2Fastball]

Clemens was acquitted of perjury. I don't believe there is any proof that he took steroids, is there? All of this talk of steroids linked with Clemens is speculation.

[Ben Grimm]

Clemens was acquitted of perjury. I don't believe there is any proof that he took steroids, is there? All of this talk of steroids linked with Clemens is speculation.

Being in the Mitchell report as well as Andy Pettitte's testimony doesn't help his cause in the court of public opinion.

[3and2Fastball]

Being in the Mitchell report as well as Andy Pettitte's testimony doesn't help his cause in the court of public opinion.

Yes, that is pretty clear, considering that one of the Top 5 pitchers of all-time (Top 10 at worst) who won 7 Cy Youngs (!) only received 37% of the vote on the 1st ballot. I just disagree with that reasoning.

[Ace Venom]

Oh the good old "Scarlet S." So many fans are asking writers to police what was essentially a free for all in MLB long after the money has been made from the careers of McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, Clemens, and Palmeiro. Most of the players fingered in the Mitchell Report or BALCO scandal lack Hall of Fame numbers. So what does that tell me as a fan? Were only a select few people turning into Superman on the field? The evidence and talk of the era doesn't support that idea. While I would not say every player was using performance enhancing drugs, it was very prevalent and difficult to ignore. While it's easy to say, "Don't induct them into the Hall of Fame," I have a much more difficult time coming to that point of view anymore.

What we're seeing is a verdict by a small number of people on the steroid era. Because so many people did it, anyone with Hall of Fame numbers from that era is suspect. It's held Jeff Bagwell back from induction. What are Mike Piazza's ties? Someone in the clubhouse said he had acne on his back. Well that proves it, right? Bagwell is suspected because he wasn't a power hitter in the minor leagues. What about guys like Curt Schilling and Craig Biggio? Well, they played with steroid users and should have said something, right? This is why I imagine Frank Thomas won't have a problem getting inducted because he was constantly trying to push for better drug testing. That sort of visible thing is popular with the media.

But let's not also forget that Sammy Sosa's ties to the steroid era were mostly based on suspicion until some anonymous report of Sosa being on "the list." Showed up in a newspaper. It was not confirmed or denied. Sosa smartly avoids saying anything. If he did it, he doesn't gain much by denying it or saying he did it. What about a guy like Rafael Palmeiro who actually got busted for steroids? The Feds never decided to pursue perjury charges against him because the metabolites in his system indicated anything would have been taken after his testimony. But then the speculation begins on whether or not he used his entire career and given his time playing with Jose Canseco, that's not much of a stretch. Palmeiro claims he never knowingly took anything, which is also entirely possible. It's also possible for people to lie about things despite telling the truth about other things even if there isn't much to gain by doing so. Or maybe there is (see the sort of attention Canseco gets). I can't speculate on how long Palmeiro used steroids and while it's not much of a stretch to say he did it more than once, it's hard to really know when it started unless there's an actual admission from someone about details. Palmeiro won't talk and he maintains his story, so we'll never know.

But isn't that the story of the steroid era? There's a lot we'll never know. The problem with making decisions based on lack of information and evidence usually snowballs in ways we don't usually find to be ideal. It can cause quite a few real world problems that make the Hall of Fame vote look as trivial as it really is. Life isn't fair and people are flawed. Mickey Mantle drank himself to an early death and cheated on his wife. Babe Ruth consumed alcohol during a time when it was illegal, as did many other stars of the time. Ty Cobb and Cap Anson were noted racists. Even a guy like Bob Gibson said he would have used steroids if they were available when he was playing. Quite a few of our beloved players from the 1970's were pill poppers. It's tough to make a standard of honor in professional sports when there isn't a lot of honor to begin with. And that, my friends, is the problem.

[fenrir]

Clemens was acquitted of perjury. I don't believe there is any proof that he took steroids, is there? All of this talk of steroids linked with Clemens is speculation.

There is proof Clemens used. The testimony of his personal trainer from 1998-2007 is the proof. Now whether or not you believe his trainer is one thing, but there is proof.

This isn't like Bagwell where there is absolutely no proof he juiced. Nobody has ever testified under oath that they injected him with steroids.