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  • #91
    Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    I had this huge debate with fellow Giants fans when the Giants offered Harper a huge contract offer a few years ago. All I heard was that Harper was a as*hole, a jerk, a clubhouse cancer, yada, yada, yada. I had no issue with signing Harper, an all star level player in his prime. My only concern was the length of the contract offer (I think it was 13 years).
    Honestly, playing Devil's Advocate here again, is he any worse than Francisco Lindor, Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez and countless others?

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    • #92
      I've always suspected that Strasburg was far more of a diva than Harper.
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      • #93
        Originally posted by Los Bravos View Post
        I've always suspected that Strasburg was far more of a diva than Harper.
        Certainly less than Madison Bumganer or even Yadier Molina.

        Again, unless the candidate is extremely borderline and the controversies are concrete and many - it just doesn't matter much. There might be a few guys in baseball history that clubhouse cancering has been a make-or-break point, but I don't think many and it seems unlikley that Harper will fall in that narrow band.
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        • #94
          Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

          Honestly, playing Devil's Advocate here again, is he any worse than Francisco Lindor, Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez and countless others?
          Agreed, when compared to outright current racists like Bonds and Sammy Sosa, or players who have affairs with teammates wives like Raffy Palmiero or Davey Martinez, Harper (so far) just seems like a cocky ballplayer...and many have made the HOF, from Ruth to Henderson to Frank Thomas.


          At this stage, I'd be pretty surprised if he doesn't make the HOF. He'll likely have 300 homers before his 30th birthday, and the record of those guys making the HOF is pretty strong.

          Heck, are there many players with 300 career homers before their 30th birthday who aren't in the HOF? Adam Dunn is the only one I can think of and he isn't eligible yet (not that he is going to make it).
          The Padres should bring back Bruce Bochy as manager.
          Play the Who am I? game in trivia and you can make this signature line yours for 3 days (baseball signatures only!)

          Go here for a link to all player links! http://www.baseball-fever.com/forum/...player-threads

          Go here for all your 1920's/1930's OF info

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          • #95
            Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post

            Agreed, when compared to outright current racists like Bonds and Sammy Sosa, or players who have affairs with teammates wives like Raffy Palmiero or Davey Martinez, Harper (so far) just seems like a cocky ballplayer...and many have made the HOF, from Ruth to Henderson to Frank Thomas.


            At this stage, I'd be pretty surprised if he doesn't make the HOF. He'll likely have 300 homers before his 30th birthday, and the record of those guys making the HOF is pretty strong.

            Heck, are there many players with 300 career homers before their 30th birthday who aren't in the HOF? Adam Dunn is the only one I can think of and he isn't eligible yet (not that he is going to make it).
            Yes, he started very young, so he has good totals for his age. .it's just that his true talent level is so hard to judge because he is not consistent from one season to the next. Usually hitters in their prime are fairly consistent, they don't hit .330 one season then .249 the next season. Overall, Harper has played a little over 1200 games, and sports a 142 OPS+. He deserves very little additional credit (if any) outside of his hitting for position, defense etc. This tells us he has been very good, but not historically good. He is about where Prince Fielder was at the same age.
            Realistically,(unless he can maintain his 2021 level for several seasons) Harper needs to pretty much double his current career to be a HOFer. David Ortiz about did that, plus has all the post season heroics, and some people STILL say he isn't a HOFer.
            Last edited by willshad; 11-24-2021, 12:28 PM.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post

              Agreed, when compared to outright current racists like Bonds and Sammy Sosa, or players who have affairs with teammates wives like Raffy Palmiero or Davey Martinez, Harper (so far) just seems like a cocky ballplayer...and many have made the HOF, from Ruth to Henderson to Frank Thomas.


              At this stage, I'd be pretty surprised if he doesn't make the HOF. He'll likely have 300 homers before his 30th birthday, and the record of those guys making the HOF is pretty strong.

              Heck, are there many players with 300 career homers before their 30th birthday who aren't in the HOF? Adam Dunn is the only one I can think of and he isn't eligible yet (not that he is going to make it).
              It seems beyond dispute that Bonds and Sosa have not always been swell guys, but "racists" is a quite specific and highly charged allegation, as well as a somewhat counter-intuitive one.

              TI, you often have inside information the general public does not. Can you elaborate on this?

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              • #97
                Originally posted by willshad View Post

                Yes, he started very young, so he has good totals for his age. .it's just that his true talent level is so hard to judge because he is not consistent from one season to the next. Usually hitters in their prime are fairly consistent, they don't hit .330 one season then .249 the next season. Overall, Harper has played a little over 1200 games, and sports a 142 OPS+. He deserves very little additional credit (if any) outside of his hitting for position, defense etc. This tells us he has been very good, but not historically good. He is about where Prince Fielder was at the same age.
                Realistically,(unless he can maintain his 2021 level for several seasons) Harper needs to pretty much double his current career to be a HOFer. David Ortiz about did that, plus has all the post season heroics, and some people STILL say he isn't a HOFer.
                For Ortiz, it is either defense/position or PEDs (me) or a little bit of home cooking favorable hitting situation for those people.
                The Padres should bring back Bruce Bochy as manager.
                Play the Who am I? game in trivia and you can make this signature line yours for 3 days (baseball signatures only!)

                Go here for a link to all player links! http://www.baseball-fever.com/forum/...player-threads

                Go here for all your 1920's/1930's OF info

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                • #98
                  The media leak that alleged Ortiz tested positive for PEDs in the non-punitive 2003 testing (with no confirmatory re-tests to rule out false positives) conducted by MLB was never confirmed by MLB and was vociferously and consistently denied by Ortiz, who never had another positive test.

                  To me this evidence isn't much more convincing than the bacne on Bagwell & Piazza. Maybe less.
                  Last edited by Cougar; 11-24-2021, 02:08 PM. Reason: Typos

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Cougar View Post
                    The media leak that alleged Ortiz tested positive for PEDs in the non-punitive 2003 testing (with no confirmatory re-tests to rule out false positives) conducted by MLB was never confirmed by MLB and was vociferously and consistently denied by Ortiz, who never had another positive test.

                    To me this evidence isn't much more convincing than the bacne on Bagwell & Piazza. Maybe less.
                    Boston’s David Ortiz acknowledges he tested positive for PEDs in 2003 | Vindy Archives


                    He admitted that the union determined that he had tested positive per the report. We can take it to an Ortiz thread if you want to go over it further.



                    "Ortiz responded to a story on The New York Times’ Web site that he and former teammate Manny Ramirez tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs six years ago.

                    “I’ve just been told that the report is true,” Ortiz said in a statement after contacting the union. “Based on the way I lived my life I’m surprised to learn I tested positive.”

                    The popular Big Papi, who had never been linked to drugs, said he intended to find out what was in his system and would tell the Red Sox and the public."

                    The Padres should bring back Bruce Bochy as manager.
                    Play the Who am I? game in trivia and you can make this signature line yours for 3 days (baseball signatures only!)

                    Go here for a link to all player links! http://www.baseball-fever.com/forum/...player-threads

                    Go here for all your 1920's/1930's OF info

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post

                      Boston’s David Ortiz acknowledges he tested positive for PEDs in 2003 | Vindy Archives


                      He admitted that the union determined that he had tested positive per the report. We can take it to an Ortiz thread if you want to go over it further.



                      "Ortiz responded to a story on The New York Times’ Web site that he and former teammate Manny Ramirez tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs six years ago.

                      “I’ve just been told that the report is true,” Ortiz said in a statement after contacting the union. “Based on the way I lived my life I’m surprised to learn I tested positive.”

                      The popular Big Papi, who had never been linked to drugs, said he intended to find out what was in his system and would tell the Red Sox and the public."
                      Ok, he denies he took prohibited PEDs intentionally, he just acknowledged the test came back positive.

                      I'm still not convinced. I just ate a McRib; goodness knows what I'd test positive for right now.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by willshad View Post
                        Yes, he started very young, so he has good totals for his age. .it's just that his true talent level is so hard to judge because he is not consistent from one season to the next. Usually hitters in their prime are fairly consistent, they don't hit .330 one season then .249 the next season. Overall, Harper has played a little over 1200 games, and sports a 142 OPS+. He deserves very little additional credit (if any) outside of his hitting for position, defense etc. This tells us he has been very good, but not historically good.
                        Heinie Manush… Harper got hurt his third year then had the historic MVP year and the year after that was his bad year at age 23. He rebounded in 2017 and the next year saw his BA dip again to .250 but he managed 130 walks and 100 RBI. Then he signed with the Phil’s and had his most durable year and some of his best counting stats to that point followed by COVID and this year he was clearly the best hitter in baseball and MVP again. Harper is definitely a great player. He’s done all the the things great players do.
                        Last edited by bluesky5; 11-24-2021, 07:44 PM.
                        "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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                        • Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post

                          For Ortiz, it is either defense/position or PEDs (me) or a little bit of home cooking favorable hitting situation for those people.
                          Ortiz deserves first ballot election. The man is eighth all time in extra base hits and 23rd in RBI despite not really getting going until age 27.

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                          • Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

                            Heinie Manush… Harper got hurt his third year then had the historic MVP year and the year after that was his bad year at age 23. He rebounded in 2017 and the next year saw his BA dip again to .250 but he managed 130 walks and 100 RBI. Then he signed with the Phil’s and had his most durable year and some of his best counting stats to that point followed by COVID and this year he was clearly the best hitter in baseball and MVP again. Harper is definitely a great player. He’s done all the the things great players do.
                            What are those things? Getting injured a lot? Performing below average and having it offset enough by winning 2 MVPs to remain interesting enough? Roger Maris won 2 MVPs. Was he a great player? How about JD Drew? He was touted as much as Harper. How did that work out in the end?

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                            • Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

                              What are those things? Getting injured a lot? Performing below average and having it offset enough by winning 2 MVPs to remain interesting enough? Roger Maris won 2 MVPs. Was he a great player? How about JD Drew? He was touted as much as Harper. How did that work out in the end?
                              Debuting as a teenager, make an impact immediately, being the center of a franchise turnaround, winning multiple MVPs.
                              "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                              Comment

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