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  • Revised comments for Negro Leagues Bus Clarkson, Dobie Moore and Ben Taylor.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

    Comment


    • Fernandez and Knoblauch had a seasons or two where they were the best at their position while competing with a lot of top ten candidates like Trammell, Yount, Ripken, Alomar or Biggio, didn't they. It is instructive that one big key is sustainability. Denny Lyons I might nave ranked in the 20s at 3B at one time.

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      • Jim,

        Do you have a take on any Korean players like Seung-yuop Lee?
        "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

        Comment


        • Originally posted by jalbright View Post
          Firpo Marberry

          The rating system places him below the gray area, which is too harsh. Marberry is a unique case, and I had to come up with a unique set of parameters to get comps I found suitable. I went with guys who pitched at least 34% of his games in releief, had a career ERA+ from 111 to 121, and pitched in 1560-2560 innings. Fingers is the only guy in the Hall who fit those parameters, and he was pretty much a pure reliever. Marberry is 5th in the comp group in both saves and games finished, but has the best winning percentage at .627. You can make an argument of the pitchers meeting those criteria, he’s the best, but it’s not obvious that conclusion is correct, especially when Curt Davis has the same ERA+ and pitched more innings. He's first in WAR and WAA among pitchers who relieved in at least 1/3 of their games in 1929-1933, and is 11th in WAA and 8th in WAR among pitchers who relieved that often in 1918-1941 (his career plus five years added to each end). My reference point was one HOFer meeting those criteria per four years. That allows for six of them, and Marberry can't make that cutoff. You'd have to make it one per three years to get the WAR mark at the cutoff. You'd have to go to one per two years to get the WAA mark at or above the HOF cutoff--but that's the cutoff I use for all pitchers. I can move him up to the low gray area, but I don’t see enough to support his induction to the Hall solely as a player. There is an argument as a contributor/pioneer with his success in a pure relief role, but that doesn’t apply here.
          Jim, could you elucidate on this a little bit. I've always been interested in Marberry. Could he be the first primitive incarnation of the modern reliever? And if not who would better deserve this title? I know guys like Chief Bender and Jack Chesbro, Ed Walsh & Three Finger Brown... and a lot more did a lot of relieving in one or more seasons.

          "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

          Comment


          • Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

            Jim, could you elucidate on this a little bit. I've always been interested in Marberry. Could he be the first primitive incarnation of the modern reliever? And if not who would better deserve this title? I know guys like Chief Bender and Jack Chesbro, Ed Walsh & Three Finger Brown... and a lot more did a lot of relieving in one or more seasons.
            I think the most remarkable thing about Marberry is that in his second and third years, he was a good pitcher (ERA+ 100 or above) finishing in relief 30 or more games while starting less than 15--for two pennant winners. Only one other pitcher meets those three qualifications in any season before 1925--Sloppy Thurston as a rookie in 1923. and he was 3-2 with 4 saves that year. Marberry was 6-6 with 15 saves in '24, and then 8-5 with 16 saves in '25. His ERA+ marks for those two years were 132 and 122 respectively. He's the first guy who wasn't primarily a starter being given a the ball a lot at the end of the game with the outcome still in doubt. It worked, and in professional sports, successful strategies like that usually get copied in a hurry. Between 1925 and 1930, only the Yankees in 1927 tried a similar approach with Wilcy Moore, (and they won) and Marberry's team, the Senators, `did it in 1927 with Garland Braxton. Marberry's continued to be used that way for 3 more seasons. However, his effectiveness as measured by his ERA+ declined after those first two years, and the Senators were not the pennant winners again.
            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
              Jim,

              Do you have a take on any Korean players like Seung-yuop Lee?
              No, I do not.
              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

              Comment

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