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  • Al Rosen

    What do you say?
    I think, therefore I love the Dodgers.

  • #2
    Originally posted by pjwvolk
    What do you say?
    Short but great career. Had the greatest season ever by a third baseman in 1953, almost won the triple crown. Great Giant's GM! HoF, I say no, career too short.
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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    • #3
      Only seven full seasons make him a very questionable candidate. But his run of five very-good-to-great years in a row is better than many HoFers.

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      • #4
        A little longer career would have been all he'd needed. He should've been playing a few years earlier than he did; he would have fit nicely at 1b on the 1948 pennant winner.

        Comment


        • #5
          I say "yes" to Rosen. He's the Dizzy Dean of position players. He had a great enough peak to be enshrined, based on his peak value; his peak was that high.

          Rosen served in WWII; that cut short some of his minor league time. He was stuck behind Ken Keltner, who had a comeback season in 1948 before he tanked in 1949. He was AL MVP in 1953, and should have been Rookie of the Year in 1950, but he had played in bits of two other seasons, and was considered ineligible. His 1953 season may have been the greatest season a third baseman ever had. His back did him in, and I don't give him an allowance for that, but his peak was a Dizzy Dean peak.
          "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

          NL President Ford Frick, 1947

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear
            I say "yes" to Rosen. He's the Dizzy Dean of position players. He had a great enough peak to be enshrined, based on his peak value; his peak was that high.

            Rosen served in WWII; that cut short some of his minor league time. He was stuck behind Ken Keltner, who had a comeback season in 1948 before he tanked in 1949. He was AL MVP in 1953, and should have been Rookie of the Year in 1950, but he had played in bits of two other seasons, and was considered ineligible. His 1953 season may have been the greatest season a third baseman ever had. His back did him in, and I don't give him an allowance for that, but his peak was a Dizzy Dean peak.
            But Rosen didn't have the fame Dean had. Dean, based just on playing merit is not a HOFer, but he has the fame part in Hall of Fame. That's why he's in. Comparing Rosen to him really isn't a good HOF argument.

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            • #7
              To me Rosen's career is just too short. This leaves his counting numbers very very low.
              Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

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              • #8
                Rosen and his near contemporary, Charlie Keller, have similar qualifications and similar problems. Both had outstanding peaks during short careers, both were impacted by World War II (Keller directly, Rosen by entering the minors at an advanced age), both retired early due to back problems.

                If there was a Hall of Fame for Players with a Terrific Peak, but a Short Career, Rosen, Keller, Hal Trosky, Denny McLain, and J.R. Richard would be the first five inductees. We'd need to set the John Paciorek rule, say at a minimum of five MLB seasons. Position players with over 1500 G aren't eligible. Comparable rules for starters and relievers would also need to be added.

                I'd guess that this Hall would have more pitchers than hitters.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear
                  I say "yes" to Rosen. He's the Dizzy Dean of position players. He had a great enough peak to be enshrined, based on his peak value; his peak was that high.

                  Fuzzy, I am beginning to think this is your quest in life.
                  Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by KCGHOST
                    Fuzzy, I am beginning to think this is your quest in life.
                    I confess that Rosen for the HOF is my idiosyncratic cause.

                    Rosen is the ONLY player with this short a career I would advocate for. The reason I do so is because his peak value was so high that, for a moment, he was the greatest third baseman that ever lived, and may still be, on peak value. That's a difference between Rosen and Charlie Keller, Denny McLain, Hal Trosky, and J. R. Richard; the others were great at their peak, but Rosen was the best ever at his position at his peak.
                    "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

                    NL President Ford Frick, 1947

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear
                      I confess that Rosen for the HOF is my idiosyncratic cause.

                      Rosen is the ONLY player with this short a career I would advocate for. The reason I do so is because his peak value was so high that, for a moment, he was the greatest third baseman that ever lived, and may still be, on peak value. That's a difference between Rosen and Charlie Keller, Denny McLain, Hal Trosky, and J. R. Richard; the others were great at their peak, but Rosen was the best ever at his position at his peak.
                      I certainly won't dispute that Rosen had a phenomenal peak. However, using win shares, there are no less than six third basemen who at least arguably had a greater peak:

                      name............top 3...........5 consecutive
                      Rosen.............102................154
                      Schmidt..........112................171
                      Brett..............106................154
                      Mathews.........112................167
                      Boggs.............103................162
                      Baker..............113................173
                      Santo..............105...............162

                      Jim Albright
                      Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                      Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                      A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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                      • #12
                        I would not vote for Al Rosen to make the HOF.

                        I would put Ron Santo, Graig Nettles, and Darrell Evans before Rose.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Al Rosen

                          Here is what I have to say about Al Rosen...

                          Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

                          He does get overshadowed by Yogi, but top 3 possibly.
                          Was he the best player on his team?

                          From 1950-1954, I’d say so.

                          Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

                          Look at 1950-1954, 3 out of those 5 years he had an OBP over .400, 4 out of 5 he slugged over .500, 1 of those .600. 3 times batted .300. 4 out of those 5 seasons his OPS+ was 144 or higher. It’s possible that his 53 was the best ever by a third baseman.

                          Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?


                          137 466 76 140 20 2 24 102 6 2 85 43 .300 .404 .506 147 236 1 11 3 14
                          Those are his 1954 Stats when the Indians won the Pennant. Deserved more than 15th in MVP voting

                          Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?

                          Sadly he only played 10 years.



                          Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?

                          No.

                          Do the player’s numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

                          He does come close

                          Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

                          No.

                          Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?

                          No. But third is stacked.. Top 5 maybe.

                          How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

                          He deserved 1953 which he won. Also deserved higher than 15th in 1954 Even 1950 was good too..


                          How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

                          4 times. Decent. Some people with 4 All Stars have made it.

                          If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

                          Sure.

                          What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

                          No

                          Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider.

                          Always a class act who tries his hardest and a very nice man..



                          Al Rosen is a Hall of Famer in my mind. Barely, but still a Hall of Famer. Longevity hurts him though, but few could argue that his peak wasn’t awesome.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Rosen had a very nice peak, but he played just 7 full seasons and his peak lasted just 5. I'd say he played very good/great for three seasons, excellent for one. He was good in 1951 and was pretty average in 1955 and 1956. Is a guy with one outstanding season and three very good ones a Hall of Famer? I don't think so.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Koufax (Maybe a farfetched analogy) had 4 very good seasons. Yes, he did play only 7 seasons, but look at it this way:

                              His 180 OPS+ in 1953 is better than all but one of Schmidt's ones. And that was during a shortened 1981 season.

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