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1965 Best of Baseball election thread

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  • #31
    Originally posted by jalbright View Post
    It's based on Chris Cobb's (IIRC) major league equivalent of the data we have on his Negro League career.
    So, in brief, .333/.387/.522 w/ 2451 hits are suggested MLB possible numbers based on his historical NL numbers. This is what it sounds like you are saying.

    I was confused on your previous post:
    The Baseball Think Factory guys project that for his career he was a 333/387/522 hitter who would have amassed 2451 hits.

    "Was a 333/387/522 hitter" sounded like those were his real NL stats.

    And "would have amassed 2451 hits" sounded like the projected MLB stats.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Paul Wendt View Post
      I think that is what you mean by "base" as in base 10, base 2, etc.
      Why that, and not "base" as in "source"?

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by dgarza View Post
        Why that, and not "base" as in "source"?
        > Real numbers? Based on NL or MLB play?

        Evidently "NL" means Negro Leagues (NeL) and "MLB" means major leagues but we all know that most NeL stars including Beckwith never played in the major leagues. So the alternatives makes sense as scales of presentation, not as sources of evidence.

        MLE by Chris Cobb are scaled to contemporary major league play. MLE batting average .337 in 1930 means batting .337 in the 1930 major league season with an average home ballpark. (The MLE records may be scaled specifically to NL average or AL average.)
        Last edited by Paul Wendt; 02-01-2010, 11:43 AM.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Paul Wendt View Post

          Evidently "NL" means Negro Leagues (NeL) and "MLB" means major leagues but we all know that most NeL stars including Beckwith never played in the major leagues. So the alternatives makes sense as scales of presentation, not as sources of evidence.
          As jalbright noted, Beckwith did play against major leaguers and there is some record of it, even if he never played in the Major Leagues officially. So I was just looking for some clarification.

          Comment


          • #35
            I've seen a few voters rank Bobby Doerr and not Joe Gordon. To me, this is a misunderstanding of the available information. Here's a prior conversation I've had on the issue:

            Originally posted by Buzzaldrin
            Wartime credit for what? Ok, he missed two seasons (and he hit below .250 in both '43 and '46, so giving him two more of those doesn't help him much at all), but that gives him a whopping 13 total, and as both a batsman and a fielder I think he's quite overrated.

            ....

            And Bobby Doerr was the best second baseman of the 40s, hands down, in the field and at bat. That's why Doerr has been in the Hall for 20 years and Gordon still isn't there.
            I'm not going to knock Doerr's selection to the Hall, but he's nowhere near "hands down" better than Joe Gordon. Why do I say that? Both were all-stars nine times, but Doerr had one in 1944, when Gordon was in the service. Gordon did better in MVP voting than Doerr, 1.57 MVP shares to Doerr's 0.93 (and Doerr had 0.22 in 1944, when a lot of the best ballplayers were in the military). Gordon was the Sporting News All-Star second baseman (their pick as the best in the majors) six times, Doerr twice (one of them being 1944). But the real evidence that knocks the Doerr was better than Gordon argument into a cocked hat IMO is the following from Chapter 12 in Bill James' Politics of Glory, (later renamed Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame?), in which James gives the career home/road splits of the two men:

            Code:
            HOME												
            	G	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	avg	OBP	slg
            Doerr	954	3554	634	1119	246	46	145	743	465	0.315	0.395	0.532
            Gordon	769	2718	422	696	112	25	119	437	358	0.256	0.346	0.447
            
            ROAD												
            	G	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	avg	OBP	slg
            Doerr	911	3539	460	923	135	43	78	504	344	0.261	0.327	0.389
            Gordon	797	2989	492	854	152	27	134	538	401	0.279	0.367	0.482
            If Doerr was truly better, how is it that on the road, in 114 less games and 493 less plate appearances, Gordon: scored more runs, had more doubles, more homers, more RBI, more walks, not to mention a higher average, higher OBP, and higher slugging percentage? Seems to me the "hands down" advantage Doerr enjoyed was his home park helped him a lot, while Gordon had to play in tough home parks for his skills.

            In short, if you're voting for Doerr, unless he's twelfth, Gordon at a bare minimum in my opinion belongs on your ballot as well.
            Last edited by jalbright; 02-01-2010, 03:15 PM.
            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

            Comment


            • #36
              There is a quote from William McNeil in the post on Beckwith which credits him with a .356 average, which is in Negro League play. That same quote gives Negro league extra base hits per 550 AB.

              Perhaps my language could have been clearer, but the major league equivalent for Beckwith is stated as "projected" data.
              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

              Comment


              • #37
                1. Stan Musial
                2. Pete Hill
                3. Wes Ferrell
                4. Hughie Jennings
                5. George Gore
                6. Charlie Keller
                7. Bobby Wallace
                8. Charlie Bennett
                9. Jose Mendez
                10. Alejandro Oms
                11. Bobby Doerr
                12. Jack Glasscock

                Comment


                • #38
                  We now have a quorum on the player side, and are one short of that status on the contributor side.
                  Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                  Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                  A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    1. Stan Musial
                    2. Max Carey
                    3. John Beckwith
                    4. Harry Stovey
                    5. Earl Averill
                    6. Bill Terry
                    7. Joe Gordon
                    8. Bobby Doerr
                    9. George Gore
                    10. Pete Hill
                    11. Frank Grant
                    12. Early Wynn

                    1. C. I. Taylor
                    2. George Weiss
                    3. Tom Connolly
                    4. Frank Chance
                    5. Dickey Pearce
                    "Any pitcher who throws at a batter and deliberately tries to hit him is a communist."

                    - Alvin Dark

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      1 Stan Musial
                      2 Joe Start
                      3 George Gore
                      4 Red Faber
                      5 Wes Ferrell
                      6 Joe Gordon
                      7 Ezra Sutton
                      8 Frank Grant
                      9 Jack Glasscock
                      10 Bobby Doerr
                      11 Pete Hill
                      12 Max Carey
                      Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                      Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        We now have quorums on both sides of the ballot.
                        Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                        Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                        A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          We have two voters from last election yet to vote in this one: Brad Harris and jaxxr. If they haven't voted by Monday, I'll PM them.


                          Next election, we'll add three new names to our contributor list:
                          Code:
                          Hutchinson , Fred
                          Reese , Jimmie
                          Sewell , Luke
                          We'll also add the following to our eligible players:
                          Code:
                          Adams , Bobby
                          Campanella , Roy
                          Hearn , Jim 
                          Newhouser , Hal
                          Pafko , Andy
                          Spahn , Warren
                          Valo , Elmer
                          Spahn will be #1 for me, and Campy #2. The wild card is how Newhouser does.
                          Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                          Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                          A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Hilton Smith

                            Thanks to Hall of Merit newcomer Alex King there has been some new sabrmetric discussion of Negro Leagues players this winter. For Hilton Smith that includes an estimate of his extraordinary value as a batter.
                            Hilton Smith at the Hall of Merit

                            Newly eligible candidates will dominate the Hall of Merit election for 2011 as they did for 2010 but Smith will begin to get some votes.

                            By the way, the new candidates stand so tall that election season, October/November, may not be relevant to most players in the backlog and vice versa. New sources and new discussion for backloggers may be almost as likely at a random time during the year.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Players

                              1 - Stan Musial
                              2 - Sam Thompson
                              3 - Chuck Klein
                              4 - Joe Gordon
                              5 - Bill Terry
                              6 - Pud Galvin
                              7 - Bobby Doerr
                              8 - Pete Browning
                              9 - Early Wynn
                              10 - Dizzy Dean
                              11 - Bob Lemon
                              12 - Earl Averill


                              Contributors

                              1 - Ford Frick
                              2 - Tom Connaly
                              3 - George Weiss
                              4 - C.I. Taylor
                              5 - Charles Conlon

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Welcome, Mr. Mack
                                You are the first person we elected.
                                Why Ford Frick?

                                Comment

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