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1965 Best of Baseball election thread

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  • 1965 Best of Baseball election thread

    This is our thirtieth election in this project. The entire rules follow.

    This election will end at 11:59:59 PM EST on February 12, 2010.

    The prior election, and the ballots of the 1964 voters, are in this thread
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  • #2
    Rules

    1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance. Should there be unannounced multiple votes from the same IP, I will investigate the circumstances, and all user names involved may be barred from this project as a result, and all but one of the multiple usernames permanently banned from the site. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.

    2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to meet a quorum in two of any four consecutive elections, the project will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.

    3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.

    4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.

    5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.

    6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the ballot is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.

    7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.

    8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.

    9) Each election will run for approximately two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.

    10) No one is excluded from being a candidate, regardless of the league they played in, except those elected in either the contributor or player ballots. At that point, they are removed from further consideration. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project.

    11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. I realize voters will sometimes have idiosyncratic choices, and I try to allow for that. However, a clear flouting of a consensus is apt to be met with a request that the ballot be justified pursuant to this rule. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.

    12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.

    13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration.

    14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.

    15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.

    16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.

    17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.

    18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 2-1-0 or whatever is appropriate for the number of players tied system. If a voter does not list a candidate, he receives zero points in the tiebreaker procedure. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, the candidate with the most votes received wins. If it is still tied after that, those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.

    19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.

    20) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.

    21) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

    Comment


    • #3
      The players who become eligible in 1965 are:

      Code:
      Gromek , Steve
      Gustine , Frank
      Hegan , Jim
      Lemon , Bob
      Musial , Stan
      Northey , Ron
      Sisti , Sibby
      Stephens , Vern
      Wynn , Early
      There are two contributors joining the list in 1965:
      Code:
      Hubbard , Cal
      Manley , Effa
      Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
      Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
      A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

      Comment


      • #4
        The 1964 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:
        Code:
        players…………..	votes	points
        Beckwith, J	8	62
        Stovey , Harry	9	62
        Gore , George	7	49
        Carey , Max	7	42
        Gordon, Joe	8	37
        Hill , Pete……….	8	36
        Terry , Bill	4	34
        Grant , Frank	5	33
        Sutton , Ezra	6	28
        Start , Joe	3	27
        Bennett , C	4	26
        Doerr, Bobby	7	23
        Ferrell, Wes	3	23
        Thompson , S	2	21
        Galvin , Pud	5	20
        Klein, Chuck	2	20
        Joss , Addie	3	18
        Glasscock , J	3	17
        McGinnity , J	4	16
        Caruthers , B	4	15
        Starffin, V	3	14
        Duffy , Hugh	2	12
        Dean, Dizzy	2	10
        Smith, Hilton	1	10
        Faber , Red	1	9
        Berger , Wally	1	8
        Jennings , H	1	8
        Roush , Edd 	1	8
        Sewell , Joe	1	8
        Averill, Earl	1	7
        Dandridge, Ray	1	7
        Brown, Willard	1	6
        Keller , C	1	6
        Browning , Pete	1	5
        Wallace , Bobby	1	5
        McCormick , J	1	4
        Rizzuto , Phil	1	3
        Maranville , R	1	2
        Mendez , Jose	1	2
        Welch , Mickey	1	2
        Grimes , B	1	1
        Oms, Alejandro	1	1
        Richardson , H	1	1
        The 1964 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:

        Code:
        contributor…………	votes	points
        Taylor , C. I.	6	26
        Weiss, George	9	22
        Connolly , Tom	7	21
        Chance , Frank	9	18
        Pearce, Dickey	2	8
        Bolden, Ed	2	7
        Caylor , O. P.	1	5
        Frick, Ford	1	5
        Ruppert , J	2	4
        Southworth, B	1	4
        Conlon , C	2	3
        Evans, Billy	1	3
        Mutrie, Jim	1	2
        Doubleday , A	1	1
        I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.
        Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
        Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
        A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

        Comment


        • #5
          Members of the Best of Baseball Hall. Last election's inductees are in red.

          Players

          Code:
          Pete Alexander
          Cap Anson
          Luke Appling
          Frank Baker
          Ross Barnes
          Cool Papa Bell
          Lou Boudreau
          Dan Brouthers
          Mordecai Brown
          Ray Brown
          Jesse Burkett
          Oscar Charleston
          Fred Clarke
          John Clarkson
          Ty Cobb
          Mickey Cochrane
          Eddie Collins
          Jimmy Collins
          Roger Connor
          Stan Coveleski
          Sam Crawford
          Joe Cronin
          Bill Dahlen
          George Davis
          Ed Delahanty
          Bill Dickey
          Martin Dihigo
          Joe DiMaggio
          Buck Ewing
          Bob Feller
          Elmer Flick
          Willie Foster
          Jimmie Foxx
          Frankie Frisch
          Lou Gehrig
          Charlie Gehringer
          Josh Gibson
          Goose Goslin
          Hank Greenberg
          Heinie Groh
          Lefty Grove
          Stan Hack
          Billy Hamilton
          Gabby Hartnett
          Harry Heilmann
          Billy Herman
          Paul Hines
          Rogers Hornsby
          Carl Hubbell
          Monte Irvin
          Joe Jackson
          Grant "Home Run"Johnson
          Walter Johnson
          Tim Keefe
          Willie Keeler
          King Kelly
          Nap LaJoie
          Buck Leonard
          Pop Lloyd
          Ted Lyons
          Biz Mackey
          Sherry Magee
          Christy Mathewson
          Bid McPhee
          Joe Medwick
          Johnny Mize
          Kid Nichols
          Jim O'Rourke
          Mel Ott
          Satchel Paige
          Eddie Plank
          Charlie Radbourn
          Pee Wee Reese
          Jackie Robinson
          Bullet Joe Rogan
          Red Ruffing
          Amos Rusie
          Babe Ruth
          Louis Santop
          Al Simmons
          George Sisler
          Enos Slaughter
          Tris Speaker
          Turkey Stearnes
          Mule Suttles
          Cristobal Torriente
          Pie Traynor
          Dazzy Vance
          Arky Vaughan
          Rube Waddell
          Honus Wagner
          Ed Walsh
          Paul Waner
          John M. Ward
          Willie Wells
          Zack Wheat
          Deacon White
          Smoky Joe Williams
          Ted Williams
          Jud Wilson
          George Wright
          Cy Young
          Contributors

          Code:
          Doc Adams
          Ed Barrow
          Alexander Cartwright
          Henry Chadwick
          Charlie Commiskey
          Jim Creighton
          Rube Foster
          Clark Griffith
          Ned Hanlon
          William Hulbert
          Miller Huggins
          Ban Johnson
          Bill Klem
          Kenesaw Landis
          Connie Mack
          Larry MacPhail
          Joe McCarthy
          John McGraw
          Cum Posey
          A. J. Reach
          Francis Richter
          Branch Rickey
          Frank Selee
          Al Spalding
          Alfred Spink
          J. G. T. Spink
          Casey Stengel
          J. L. Wilkinson
          Harry Wright
          Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
          Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
          A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

          Comment


          • #6
            The complete list of eligible players:

            Code:
            Adams , Sparky
            Allen , Johnny
            Altrock , Nick
            Archer , Jimmy
            Arlett , Buzz
            Austin , Jimmy
            Averill , Earl
            Bancroft , Dave
            Barry , Jack
            Bartell , Dick
            Battin , Joe
            Beaumont , Ginger
            Beckley , Jake
            Beckwith , John
            Bender , Chief
            Bennett , Charlie
            Benton , Larry
            Berg , Moe
            Bergen , Marty
            Berger , Wally
            Berry , Charlie
            Bigbee , Carson
            Bishop , Max
            Blades , Ray
            Blue , Lu
            Bluege , Ossie
            Bodie , Ping
            Boley , Joe
            Bond , Tommy
            Bottomley , Jim
            Bradley , Bill
            Brecheen , Harry
            Breitenstein , Ted
            Bresnahan , Roger
            Bridges , Tommy
            Brown , Willard
            Browning , Pete
            Burns , George J.
            Bush  , Joe
            Bush , Donie
            Bush , Guy
            Cadore , Leon
            Camilli , Dolph
            Camnitz , Howie
            Carey , Max
            Carrigan , Bill
            Caruthers , Bob 
            Case , George
            Cavaretta , Phil
            Cepeda , Perucho
            Chance , Frank
            Chandler , Spud
            Chapman , Ben
            Chapman , Ray
            Chapman , Sam
            Chase , Hal
            Chesbro , Jack
            Childs , Cupid
            Cicotte , Eddie
            Cissell , Bill
            Clark , Watty
            Clarkson , Bus
            Coakley , Andy
            Collins , Shano
            Combs , Earle
            Conroy , Wid
            Coombs , Jack
            Cooper , Andy
            Cooper , Mort
            Cooper , Walker
            Cooper , Wilbur
            Cox , Billy
            Crandall , Doc
            Cravath , Gavvy
            Creighton , Jim
            Criger , Lou
            Critz , Hughie
            Cross , Lave
            Crowder , Al 
            Cruise , Walt
            Cuccinello , Tony
            Cummings , Candy
            Cuyler , Kiki
            Dandridge , Ray
            Danning , Harry
            Daubert , Jake
            Davis , Curt
            Davis , Harry
            Davis , Spud
            Day , Leon
            Dean, Dizzy
            Derringer , Paul
            DiMaggio , Dom
            Dinneen , Bill
            Doak , Bill
            Doerr , Bobby
            Donlin , Mike
            Donovan , Bill
            Dooin , Red
            Doyle , Jack 
            Doyle , Larry
            Duffy , Hugh
            Dugan , Joe
            Dunlap , Fred
            Dykes , Jimmy
            Earnshaw , George
            Easter, Luke
            Edwards , Hank
            Ehmke , Howard
            Elberfeld , Kid
            Elliott , Bob
            Elliott , Jumbo
            Ens , Jewel
            Evers , Johnny
            Faber , Red
            Falkenberg , Cy
            Ferrell , Rick
            Ferrell , Wes
            Fitzsimmons , Freddie
            Fletcher , Art
            Fonseca , Lew
            Foster , Eddie
            Fraser , Chick
            Galan , Augie
            Galvin , Pud
            Gelbert , Charlie
            Glasscock , Jack
            Gleason , Kid
            Gomez , Lefty
            Gonzalez , Mike
            Gordon , Joe
            Gore , George
            Gowdy , Hank
            Grant , Eddie
            Grant , Frank
            Grantham , George
            Grimes , Burleigh
            Grimm , Charlie
            Grissom , Marv
            Gromek , Steve
            Grove , Orval
            Gustine , Frank
            Haas , Mule
            Hafey , Chick
            Hahn , Noodles
            Haines , Jesse
            Hallahan , Bill
            Harder , Mel
            Hargrave , Bubbles
            Harris , Bucky
            Harris , Vic
            Hegan , Jim
            Henrich , Tommy
            Herman , Babe
            Herzog , Buck 
            Higgins , Mike
            Hill , Pete
            Hinchman , Bill
            Holmes , Tommy
            Hooper , Harry
            Hoy , Dummy
            Hoy, Dummy
            Hoyt , Waite
            Huggins , Miller
            Hutchinson , Fred
            Irwin , Charlie
            Jackman , Will
            Jennings , Hughie
            Johnson , Bob
            Johnson , Judy
            Jones , Charley
            Jones , Fielder
            Jones , Sam P.
            Jordan , Tim
            Joss , Addie
            Judge , Joe
            Jurges , Billy
            Kamm , Willie
            Kawakami , Tetsuharu
            Keller , Charlie
            Kelley , Joe
            Keltner , Ken
            Kerr , Dickie
            Killefer , Bill
            Kilroy , Matt
            Kinder , Ellis
            Klein , Chuck
            Kling , Johnny
            Knabe , Otto
            Kremer , Ray
            Kress , Red
            Kuhel , Joe
            Lange , Bill
            Larkin , Henry
            Latham , Arlie
            Lavagetto , Cookie
            Lazzeri , Tony
            Leach , Freddy
            Leach , Tommy
            Lee , Bill
            Leever , Sam
            Lemon , Bob
            Leonard , Emil (Dutch)
            Lewis , Duffy
            Lindstrom , Freddie
            Lobert , Hans
            Lombardi , Ernie
            Long , Herman
            Lopat , Ed
            Lopez , Al
            Lowe , Bobby
            Lucas , Red
            Lundy , Dick
            Luque , Dolf
            Lyons , Denny
            Maglie , Sal
            Mancuso , Gus
            Manush , Heinie
            Maranville , Rabbit
            Marberry , Firpo
            Marion , Marty
            Marquard , Rube
            Martin , Pepper
            Mathews , Bobby
            Mays , Carl
            McAleer , Jimmy
            McCarthy , Tommy
            McCormick , Frank
            McCormick , Jim
            McGinnity , Joe
            McGowan , Bill
            McInnis , Stuffy
            McLean , Larry
            McManus , Marty
            McVey , Cal
            Meadows , Lee
            Mendez , Jose
            Meusel , Bob
            Milan , Clyde
            Miller , Bing
            Miller , Dots
            Miller , Hack
            Monroe , Bill
            Moore , Dobie
            Moore , Jo-Jo
            Moore , Terry
            Moran , Pat
            Mostil , Johnny
            Mulcahy , Hugh
            Mullane , Tony
            Mungo , Van
            Murphy , Danny
            Murray , Red
            Musial , Stan
            Myer , Buddy
            Nehf , Art
            Newsom , Bobo
            Nicholson , Bill
            Northey , Ron
            O'Doul , Lefty
            Oeschger , Joe
            O'Farrell , Bob
            O'Leary , Charlie
            Oms , Alejandro
            O'Neill , Buck
            O'Neill , Steve
            O'Neill , Tip
            Orr , Dave
            Pabor , Charlie
            Paskert , Dode
            Pearce , Dickey
            Pearson , Monte
            Peckinpaugh , Roger
            Peitz , Heinie
            Pennock , Herb
            Perdue , Hub
            Perkins , Cy
            Pesky , Johnny
            Phillippe , Deacon 
            Pike , Lip
            Pipp , Wally
            Poles , Spotswood
            Pruett , Hub
            Quinn , Jack
            Raschi , Vic
            Raymond , Bugs
            Redding , Dick
            Reiser , Pete
            Remsen , Jack
            Reynolds , Allie
            Rice , Sam
            Richardson , Hardy
            Ring , Jimmy
            Ritchey , Claude
            Rixey , Eppa
            Rizzuto , Phil
            Robertson , Dave
            Roe , Preacher
            Rolfe , Red
            Rommel , Eddie
            Root , Charlie
            Roush , Edd 
            Rucker , Nap
            Rudolph , Dick
            Ruel , Muddy
            Ryan  , Jimmy
            Sain , Johnny
            Sauer , Hank
            Schacht , Al
            Schaefer , Germany
            Schalk , Ray
            Schang , Wally
            Schreckengost , Ossie
            Schulte , Frank
            Scott , Everett
            Scott , Jack
            Selkirk , George
            Severeid , Hank
            Sewell , Joe
            Sewell , Luke
            Sewell , Rip
            Seymour , Cy
            Sheckard , Jimmy
            Sherdel , Bill
            Shocker , Urban
            Sisti , Sibby
            Smith , Earl
            Smith , Hilton
            Smith , Sherry
            Sparks , Tully
            Stahl , Jake
            Stanky , Eddie
            Starffin , Victor
            Start , Joe
            Steinfeldt , Harry
            Stephens , Vern
            Stephenson , Riggs
            Stovey , Harry
            Street , Gabby
            Suhr , Gus
            Sukeforth , Clyde
            Sutton , Ezra
            Sweeney , Bill
            Tannehill , Jesse
            Taylor , Ben
            Tebbetts , Birdie
            Tenney , Fred
            Terry , Bill
            Thevenow , Tommy
            Thomas , Ira
            Thompson , Sam
            Tiernan , Mike
            Tinker , Joe
            Tobin , Jim
            Toney , Fred
            Trouppe , Quincy
            Trout , Dizzy
            Trucks , Virgil
            Turner , Terry
            Uhle , George
            Van Haltren , George
            Vander Meer , Johnny
            Veach , Bobby
            Vernon , Mickey
            Walberg , Rube
            Walker , Harry
            Wallace , Bobby
            Walters , Bucky
            Wambsganss , Bill
            Waner , Lloyd
            Warfield , Frank
            Warneke , Lon
            Welch , Mickey
            Werber , Billy
            West , Sam
            White , Sol
            White , Will 
            Whitehill , Earl
            Williams , Cy
            Williams , Ken
            Williamson , Ned
            Willis , Vic
            Wilson , Hack
            Wilson , Jimmie
            Witt , Whitey
            Wood , Joe
            Wright , Glenn
            Wyatt , Whit 
            Wynn , Early
            Yerkes , Steve
            York , Rudy
            Young , Pep
            Youngs , Ross
            Zachary , Tom
            Zimmer , Chief
            The complete list of eligible contributors:

            Code:
            Abe , Iso
            Bancroft , Frank
            Bolden, Ed
            Bulkely , Morgan
            Busch , Augie
            Cambria , Joe
            Carrigan, Bill
            Caylor , O. P.
            Chance , Frank
            Chandler, Happy
            Conlan , Jocko
            Conlon , Charles
            Connolly , Tom
            Cooper , Andy
            Cummings , Candy
            Dinneen , Bill
            Doubleday , Abner
            Dreyfuss , Barney
            Dunn , Jack
            Dyer , Eddie
            Dykes , Jimmy
            Elias , Al Munro
            Evans, Billy
            Foster , John B.
            Frick, Ford
            Fullerton , Hugh
            Giles , Warren
            Gleason , Kid
            Gonzalez , Mike
            Greenlee, Gus
            Grimm, Charlie
            Haney , Fred
            Harridge, Willie
            Harris , Bucky
            Hillerich , John
            Hubbard , Cal
            Jennings , Hughie
            Krichell, Paul
            Lardner , Ring
            Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W.
            Luque , Dolf
            Manley , Effa
            McCarthy , Tommy
            McKechnie, Bill
            Mendez , Jose
            Mills , A. G.
            Moran , Pat
            Mutrie , Jim
            Navin , Frank
            Norworth, Jack
            O'Doul, Lefty
            O'Neill, Steve
            Osborn , Frank
            Pasquel, Jorge
            Pompez , Alex 
            Rice, Grantland
            Robinson , Wilbert
            Ruppert , Jacob
            Shibe , Ben
            Shoriki, Matsutaro
            Southworth, Billy
            Stallings , George
            Street, Gabby
            Taylor , C. I.
            Thayer , Ernest
            Tyson, Ty
            Warfield , Frank
            Weiss, George
            White , Sol
            Wilson , Horace
            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

            Comment


            • #7
              My ballot

              Players
              1. Stan Musial
              2. Harry Stovey
              3. John Beckwith
              4. Early Wynn
              5. Joe McGinnity
              6. Victor Starffin
              7. Bobby Doerr
              8. Pud Galvin
              9. Joe Gordon
              10. Pete Hill
              11. Burleigh Grimes
              12. George Gore

              Contributors
              1. C. I. Taylor
              2. Tom Connolly
              3. Frank Chance
              4. George Weiss
              5. Dickey Pearce

              Dickey Pearce joins my contributor ballot. On the player side, two newly eligible names join: Stan Musial and Early Wynn. George Gore completes my ballot.
              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

              Comment


              • #8
                1) Musial
                2) Bennett
                3) Beckwith
                4) Gore
                5) Carey
                6) Galvin
                7) Sutton
                8) Gordon
                9) Maranville
                10) Stovey
                11) Lemon
                12) Wynn

                --Backlog leaders; Frank Grant, Pete Hill, Jack Glasscock, Joe Sewell, Bob Caruthers, Dizzy Dean and Wes Ferrell. These are not in any particular order, but one of them will join my ballot next time we lack enough newcomers to fill it. Interested in any info their supporters may have to get one of them to the top of the class.

                Contributors
                1) Pearce
                2) Chance
                3) Bolden
                4) Weiss
                5) Evans

                Comment


                • #9
                  Monte Irvin was voted into this HOF, and seems a very qualified inductee.
                  I also included him on my ballot.

                  Monte had 8 MLB seasons, and one time led the league in a hitting stat, RBI.
                  None of his career marks are outstanding, due partly to a short time, and due partly to no prime years.
                  Obviously the voters herein had to adjust his actual MLB stats, and extrapolate, expand, or estimate how he would have performed, and that seems a reasonable approach.

                  For whatever frame of references one has, or whatever estimation process one uses, it would seem proper the same estimation would be acceptable for a player with much better single season peaks and some truly great career marks, who had also a short MLB career, cut short by a death at the prime age of 31.

                  Some can see Monte Irvin, based on slightly above average MLB stats, being projected a HOFer because of unusual circumstances,
                  However, some can not project the all time WHIP leader, the second best career ERA, and several league leading performances, into this HOF.

                  Perhaps I place too much significance on having the very best ever, and several other very high positions in some pitching career official MLB stats, and am unfair to feel it might be hypocritical, to overlook those, and to project and estimate unrecorded, spotty, anecdotal, non MLB performance into the HOF.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by jaxxr View Post
                    Monte Irvin was voted into this HOF, and seems a very qualified inductee.
                    I also included him on my ballot.

                    Monte had 8 MLB seasons, and one time led the league in a hitting stat, RBI.
                    None of his career marks are outstanding, due partly to a short time, and due partly to no prime years.
                    Obviously the voters herein had to adjust his actual MLB stats, and extrapolate, expand, or estimate how he would have performed, and that seems a reasonable approach.

                    For whatever frame of references one has, or whatever estimation process one uses, it would seem proper the same estimation would be acceptable for a player with much better single season peaks and some truly great career marks, who had also a short MLB career, cut short by a death at the prime age of 31.

                    Some can see Monte Irvin, based on slightly above average MLB stats, being projected a HOFer because of unusual circumstances,
                    However, some can not project the all time WHIP leader, the second best career ERA, and several league leading performances, into this HOF.

                    Perhaps I place too much significance on having the very best ever, and several other very high positions in some pitching career official MLB stats, and am unfair to feel it might be hypocritical, to overlook those, and to project and estimate unrecorded, spotty, anecdotal, non MLB performance into the HOF.
                    There's some very big differences: Irvin was playing those other years, and prevented from doing so in the majors due solely to his skin color. Personally, I find it offensive to bar somebody on that basis, and giving him his due is what makes an attempt to evaluate what he did in those years he was excluded necessary IMHO.

                    Joss suffered a terrible fate, but many people fall ill or are injured, especially pitchers. My approach is to not give any extra credit for what could have happened but for injury, because there's way too many guys for whom that argument could be made. Chino Smith or Dobie Moore get no credit in my book for their lives after their careers effectively ended. They either rise or fall on what they did during their playing careers. Dickie Thon could have been a great one had he not been beaned. He might not have been. Ray Chapman either makes it on what he did before his fatal beaning or not at all. So, too, does Joss. As I indicated before, I view Joss as no better than Jack Chesbro among his peers when one considers some other statistical approaches than you do, jaxxr. I'm not voting in Chesbro, and I won't be voting for Joss. If others join you and elect him, I'll disagree, but I'll continue.
                    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Jim, you are certainly entitled to your opinions,
                      I do respect you views, but have difficulty understanding "what if" estimates appropriateness in only certain cases.

                      " Personally, I find it offensive to bar somebody on that basis, and giving him his due is what makes an attempt to evaluate what he did in those years he was excluded necessary IMHO."

                      I do not disagree with those concepts, and do not find it offensive, but perhaps unfortunate, that we can exclude THE all time WHIP leader, the second best ERA ever, who had several actual MLB league leading seasons as well,
                      and to somehow equate his dying at the age of 31, as very similar to a long injury and /or segregation shortcomings...

                      I suppose, if we all valued or interpreted events exactly the same, this would be quite a boring exercise.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        There's no right or wrong answers in how to deal with injuries/deaths.

                        The problem I have with injury "what ifs" are: 1) there's way too many of them, and 2) very often, like the beanings, they have to do with the way the player plays (crowding the plate, etc.). It's too much to sort out. When it comes to the color line, I'm trying to make sense of what did happen. The numbers aren't translatable one to one--but Irvin did play, and was a dominant force in the leagues in which he played. This may not satisfy you or some others, but it's how I choose to draw the line. Similarly, I will give my best estimates of what the meaning of what Japanese players did in Japan in MLB terms simply to put those players in context.

                        Like you say, if we all had the same perspective, there wouldn't be much point to having projects like this. Joss has things to point to, and you and others have every right to point to them and try to persuade others that those things outweigh the issues I have with his candidacy. Truth is, even with the issues I do have about him, Joss is someone who I regard as well worthy of discussion.
                        Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                        Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                        A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          01. Stan Musial
                          02. Harry Stovey
                          03. Joe Gordon
                          04. Wally Berger
                          05. Wes Ferrell
                          06. John Beckwith
                          07. Pete Hill
                          08. Charlie Bennett
                          09. Bobby Doerr
                          10. Phil Rizzuto
                          11. Victor Starffin
                          12. Joe McGinnity

                          01. C.I. Taylor
                          02. Tom Connolly
                          03. Dickey Pearce
                          04. Frank Chance
                          05. George Weiss

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Congratulations to Clark Griffith, a good candidate player inevitably recognized first for his entire baseball career.


                            This year I take the path of least resistance and nod to those who election is imminent. C.I. Taylor, John Beckwith, and Harry Stovey fill the openings at the ends of my ballots.

                            1 George Weiss
                            2 Tom Connolly
                            3 Jake Ruppert
                            4 Charles Conlon
                            5 C.I.Taylor


                            Briefly I was Joe Gordon's best friend and I am Hardy Richardson's best friend of course. Probably they are now fixtures on my ballot. Richardson, Gordon, Bobby Doerr, and Frank Grant are numbers 16-17-18-19 in the Hall of Merit ranking of secondbasemen (with Roberto Alomar unranked). It's remarkable that all four are eligible here together.

                            1 Stan Musial
                            2 George Gore
                            3 Joe Start
                            4 Jack Glasscock
                            5 Ezra Sutton
                            6 Charlie Bennett
                            7 Max Carey
                            8 Pete Hill
                            9 Joe Gordon
                            10 Hardy Richardson
                            11 John Beckwith
                            12 Harry Stovey


                            A strong balanced team from the 1880s is still on the board and the imminent election of Harry Stovey will not undo it. Take a look.
                            Code:
                            	(Harry Stovey)	George Gore	Sam Thompson
                            	Charley Jones	Pete Browning
                            
                            		Jack Glasscock	Hardy Richardson
                            
                            Ezra Sutton					(Harry Stovey)
                            						Joe Start
                            			Bob Caruthers
                            			Mickey Welch
                            			Jim McCormick
                            			Jim Galvin
                            
                            			Charlie Bennett
                            Frank Grant is occasionally available by loan from the 1890s, too.

                            Jones, Sutton, and Start are also members of the 1870s team which no longer takes the field.
                            Last edited by Paul Wendt; 01-30-2010, 01:13 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              --Joe Start was at best the 4th best 1B of the 1880s. Being the 4th best at a position from that early era is not a strong case for me. Of course, Start was - by baseball standards - an old man in the 1880s. His real claim is that he was (probably, records are not exactly clear here) the best 1B of the 1860s. It is his extreme longevity that makes him a viable, if less than compelling, candidate IMO.

                              Comment

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