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1990 Best of Baseball Election thread

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  • 1990 Best of Baseball Election thread

    This is our fifty-fifth election in this project. The entire rules follow.

    This election will end at 11:59:59 PM EST on February 4, 2011.

    The prior election, and the ballots of the 1989 voters, are in this thread
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  • #2

    1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance. Should there be unannounced multiple votes from the same IP, I will investigate the circumstances, and all user names involved may be barred from this project as a result, and all but one of the multiple usernames permanently banned from the site. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.

    2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to meet a quorum in two of any four consecutive elections, the portion(s) of the project failing to meet the quorum requirement will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.

    3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.

    4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.

    5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.

    6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the voting is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.

    7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.

    8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.

    9) Each election will run for approximately two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.

    10) No one is excluded from being a candidate, regardless of the league they played in, except those elected in either the contributor or player ballots. At that point, they are removed from further consideration. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project.

    11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. I realize voters will sometimes have idiosyncratic choices, and I try to allow for that. However, a clear flouting of a consensus is apt to be met with a request that the ballot be justified pursuant to this rule. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.

    12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.

    13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration. For players, any request for a multiple time all-star in the all-star era will be approved. Players of that quality will generally be approved without much ado. However, when a player lacks that kind of qualification, I will likely ask for you to get a second from among our voters via a post in the current election thread. When in doubt, I will also require a second for suggested contributors. If a second is forthcoming, the player will be added. If not, the request will be rejected. I want to limit requests and seconds to players or contributors you actually might vote for.

    14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.

    15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.

    16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.

    17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.

    18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 2-1-0 or whatever is appropriate for the number of players tied system. If a voter does not list a candidate, he receives zero points in the tiebreaker procedure. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, the candidate with the most votes received wins. If it is still tied after that, those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.

    19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.

    20) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.

    21) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


    • #3
      The players who become eligible in 1990 are:
      Bowa , Larry
      Carew , Rod
      Ellis , Dock
      Holtzman , Ken
      John , Tommy
      Lopes , Davey
      Messersmith , Andy
      Monday , Rick
      Palmer , Jim
      Smith , Reggie
      Sutton , Don
      On the contributor side, we add these names in 1990:
      Jobe , Frank
      Kuenn , Harvey
      Mauch , Gene
      Weyer , Lee
      Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
      Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
      A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


      • #4
        The 1989 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:
        Players……………..	votes	points
        Oms, Alejandro	10	56
        Mendez , Jose	10	55
        Lemon, Bob	11	54
        Smith, Hilton	9	53
        Grimes , Burleigh	7	48
        Joss , Addie	6	43
        Jennings , Hughie	5	35
        Roush , Edd 	7	34
        Tiant, Luis	6	33
        Rixey , Eppa	4	28
        Torre, Joe	5	27
        Bresnahan , Roger	6	26
        Brock, Lou	4	26
        Wynn, Jimmy	5	19
        Keller , Charlie	2	18
        Kelley , Joe	3	18
        Berger , Wally	2	16
        Brown, Willard	3	15
        McVey , Cal	2	13
        Rice , Sam	2	12
        Sheckard , Jimmy	3	12
        Beckley , Jake	3	11
        Elliott, Bob	1	8
        Howard, Frank	1	7
        Koyama, Masaaki	1	7
        Cepeda, Orlando	2	6
        Lundy , Dick	1	6
        Aparicio, Luis	1	5
        Freehan, Bill	1	4
        Rizzuto , Phil	1	4
        Childs , Cupid	1	3
        Gomez, Lefty	1	3
        Matlock, Leroy	1	2
        Bando, Sal	1	1
        Pesky, Johnny	1	1
        Pike , Lip	1	1
        Sewell , Joe	1	1
        The 1989 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:
        Contributors………..	votes	points
        Tsuruoka, Kazuto	8	22
        Frick, Ford	5	19
        Rizzuto, Phil	5	17
        Greenlee, Gus	5	16
        Caray, Harry	2	9
        Harris, Vic	3	9
        Evans, Billy	2	8
        Caylor , O. P.	2	7
        Chandler, Happy	2	7
        Ferguson, Bob	2	5
        Krichell, Paul	1	4
        Smith, Red	1	4
        Jennings , Hughie	1	3
        Murnane, Tim	2	3
        Giles , Warren	1	2
        McCarthy, Tommy	1	2
        Murtaugh, Danny	1	2
        Abe, Iso.....	1	1
        I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.
        Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
        Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
        A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


        • #5
          Members of the Best of Baseball Hall. Last election's inductees are in red.

          Hank Aaron
          Pete Alexander
          Dick Allen
          Cap Anson
          Luke Appling
          Richie Ashburn
          Earl Averill
          Frank Baker
          Ernie Banks
          Ross Barnes
          John Beckwith
          Cool Papa Bell
          Charlie Bennett
          Yogi Berra
          Akira Bessho
          Lou Boudreau
          Ken Boyer
          Dan Brouthers
          Mordecai Brown
          Ray Brown
          Jim Bunning
          Jesse Burkett
          Roy Campanella
          Max Carey
          Steve Carlton
          Bob Caruthers
          Oscar Charleston
          Fred Clarke
          John Clarkson
          Roberto Clemente
          Ty Cobb
          Mickey Cochrane
          Eddie Collins
          Jimmy Collins
          Roger Connor
          Stan Coveleski
          Sam Crawford
          Joe Cronin
          Bill Dahlen
          George Davis
          Dizzy Dean
          Ed Delahanty
          Bill Dickey
          Martin Dihigo
          Joe DiMaggio
          Larry Doby
          Bobby Doerr
          Don Drysdale
          Buck Ewing
          Red Faber
          Bob Feller
          Wes Ferrell
          Elmer Flick
          Whitey Ford
          Willie Foster
          Nellie Fox
          Jimmie Foxx
          Frankie Frisch
          Pud Galvin
          Lou Gehrig
          Charlie Gehringer
          Bob Gibson
          Josh Gibson
          Jack Glasscock
          Joe Gordon
          George Gore
          Goose Goslin
          Frank Grant
          Hank Greenberg
          Heinie Groh
          Lefty Grove
          Stan Hack
          Billy Hamilton
          Isao Harimoto
          Gabby Hartnett
          Harry Heilmann
          Billy Herman
          Pete Hill
          Paul Hines
          Rogers Hornsby
          Carl Hubbell
          Kazuhisa Inao
          Monte Irvin
          Joe Jackson
          Ferguson Jenkins
          Grant "Home Run"Johnson
          Walter Johnson
          Al Kaline
          Masaichi Kaneda
          Tim Keefe
          Willie Keeler
          King Kelly
          Harmon Killebrew
          Ralph Kiner
          Sandy Koufax
          Nap LaJoie
          Buck Leonard
          Pop Lloyd
          Ted Lyons
          Biz Mackey
          Sherry Magee
          Mickey Mantle
          Juan Marichal
          Eddie Mathews
          Christy Mathewson
          Willie Mays
          Willie McCovey
          Joe McGinnity
          Bid McPhee
          Joe Medwick
          Minnie Minoso
          Johnny Mize
          Dobie Moore
          Joe Morgan
          Stan Musial
          Shigeo Nagashima
          Hal Newhouser
          Kid Nichols
          Phil Niekro
          Katsuya Nomura
          Sadaharu Oh
          Jim O'Rourke
          Mel Ott
          Satchel Paige
          Gaylord Perry
          Eddie Plank
          Charlie Radbourn
          Pee Wee Reese
          Robin Roberts
          Brooks Robinson
          Frank Robinson
          Jackie Robinson
          Bullet Joe Rogan
          Pete Rose
          Red Ruffing
          Amos Rusie
          Babe Ruth
          Ron Santo
          Louis Santop
          Tom Seaver
          Al Simmons
          George Sisler
          Enos Slaughter
          Duke Snider
          Warren Spahn
          Tris Speaker
          Victor Starffin
          Willie Stargell
          Joe Start
          Turkey Stearnes
          Harry Stovey
          Mule Suttles
          Ezra Sutton
          Bill Terry
          Sam Thompson
          Cristobal Torriente
          Pie Traynor
          Dazzy Vance
          Arky Vaughan
          Rube Waddell
          Honus Wagner
          Bobby Wallace
          Ed Walsh
          Paul Waner
          John M. Ward
          Willie Wells
          Zack Wheat
          Deacon White
          Hoyt Wilhelm
          Billy Williams
          Smoky Joe Williams
          Ted Williams
          Jud Wilson
          George Wright
          Early Wynn
          Carl Yastrzemski
          Cy Young
          Doc Adams
          Mel Allen
          Walter Alston
          Red Barber
          Ed Barrow
          Buzzue Bavasi
          Ed Bolden
          Alexander Cartwright
          Henry Chadwick
          Frank Chance
          Charlie Commiskey
          Charles Conlon
          Tom Connolly
          Jim Creighton
          Jack Dunn
          Leo Durocher
          Rube Foster
          Clark Griffith
          Ned Hanlon
          William Hulbert
          Miller Huggins
          Ban Johnson
          Tetsuharu Kawakami
          Bill Klem
          Kenesaw Landis
          Al Lopez
          Connie Mack
          Larry MacPhail
          Joe McCarthy
          John McGraw
          Bill McKechnie
          Marvin Miller
          Walter O'Malley
          Dickey Pearce
          Cum Posey
          A. J. Reach
          Francis Richter
          Branch Rickey
          Jacob Ruppert
          Frank Selee
          Ben Shibe
          Matsutaro Shoriki
          Billy Southworth
          Al Spalding
          Alfred Spink
          J. G. T. Spink
          Casey Stengel
          C. I. Taylor
          Bill Veeck
          George Weiss
          Sol White
          J. L. Wilkinson
          Harry Wright
          Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
          Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
          A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


          • #6
            The complete list of eligible players:
            Adams , Babe
            Adams , Bobby
            Adams , Sparky
            Allen , Johnny
            Alou , Jesus
            Alou , Matty
            Alou, Felipe
            Altrock , Nick
            Aparicio, Luis
            Archer , Jimmy
            Arlett , Buzz
            Austin , Jimmy
            Avila, Bobby
            Bailey , Bob 
            Bancroft , Dave
            Bando , Sal
            Barry , Jack
            Bartell , Dick
            Battin , Joe
            Bauer , Hank
            Beaumont , Ginger
            Beckert, Glenn
            Beckley , Jake
            Belanger , Mark
            Bender , Chief
            Benton , Larry
            Berg , Moe
            Bergen , Marty
            Berger , Wally
            Berry , Charlie
            Bibby , Jim 
            Bigbee , Carson
            Billingham , Jack
            Bishop , Max
            Blackwell , Ewell
            Blades , Ray
            Blair , Paul
            Blass , Steve
            Blue , Lu
            Bluege , Ossie
            Bodie , Ping
            Boley , Joe
            Bond , Tommy
            Bottomley , Jim
            Bowa , Larry
            Boyer , Clete
            Bradley , Bill
            Brecheen , Harry
            Breitenstein , Ted
            Bresnahan , Roger
            Brewer , Jim 
            Bridges , Tommy
            Brock, Lou
            Brown , Willard
            Browning , Pete
            Bruton, Bill
            Burdette , Lew
            Burgess , Smoky  
            Burns , George J.
            Bush  , Joe
            Bush , Donie
            Bush , Guy
            Cadore , Leon
            Camilli , Dolph
            Camnitz , Howie
            Campaneris , Bert
            Cardenal , Jose
            Cardenas , Leo 
            Carew , Rod
            Carrasquel. Chico 
            Carrigan , Bill
            Carroll, Clay
            Case , George
            Cash, Norm
            Cavaretta , Phil
            Cepeda , Orlando
            Cepeda , Perucho
            Chandler , Spud
            Chapman , Ben
            Chapman , Ray
            Chapman , Sam
            Chase , Hal
            Chesbro , Jack
            Childs , Cupid
            Cicotte , Eddie
            Cissell , Bill
            Clark , Watty
            Clarkson , Bus
            Clift, Harlond
            Coakley , Andy
            Colavito, Rocky
            Collins , Shano
            Combs , Earle
            Conroy , Wid
            Coombs , Jack
            Cooper , Andy
            Cooper , Mort
            Cooper , Walker
            Cooper , Wilbur
            Courtney , Clint
            Cox , Billy
            Crandall , Doc
            Crandall, Del
            Cravath , Gavvy
            Criger , Lou
            Critz , Hughie
            Cross , Lave
            Crowder , Al 
            Cruise , Walt
            Cuccinello , Tony
            Cummings , Candy
            Cuyler , Kiki
            Dandridge , Ray
            Danning , Harry
            Dark , Alvin
            Daubert , Jake
            Davis , Curt
            Davis , Harry
            Davis , Spud
            Day , Leon
            Derringer , Paul
            DiMaggio , Dom
            Dinneen , Bill
            Doak , Bill
            Donlin , Mike
            Donovan , Bill
            Dooin , Red
            Doyle , Jack 
            Doyle , Larry
            Dropo , Walt
            Duffy , Hugh
            Dugan , Joe
            Dunlap , Fred
            Dykes , Jimmy
            Earnshaw , George
            Easter, Luke
            Edwards , Hank
            Ehmke , Howard
            Elberfeld , Kid
            Elliott , Bob
            Elliott , Jumbo
            Ellis , Dock
            Ennis, Del
            Ens , Jewel
            Erskine , Carl
            Evers , Johnny
            Face, Roy
            Fairly , Ron
            Falkenberg , Cy
            Ferrell , Rick
            Fitzsimmons , Freddie
            Fletcher , Art
            Flood , Curt
            Fonseca , Lew
            Foster , Eddie
            Fraser , Chick
            Freehan, Bill
            Fregosi , Jim
            Furillo , Carl
            Galan , Augie
            Garver, Ned
            Gelbert , Charlie
            Gleason , Kid
            Gomez , Lefty
            Gonzalez , Mike
            Gowdy , Hank
            Grant , Eddie
            Grantham , George
            Grimes , Burleigh
            Grimm , Charlie
            Grissom , Marv
            Groat, Dick
            Gromek , Steve
            Grove , Orval
            Gustine , Frank
            Haas , Mule
            Haddix, Harvey
            Hafey , Chick
            Hahn , Noodles
            Haines , Jesse
            Hallahan , Bill
            Harder , Mel
            Hargrave , Bubbles
            Harrelson , Bud
            Harris , Bucky
            Harris , Vic
            Hatton , Grady
            Hearn , Jim 
            Hegan , Jim
            Helms, Tommy
            Hemus , Solly
            Henrich , Tommy
            Herman , Babe
            Herzog , Buck 
            Hickman , Jim
            Higgins , Mike
            Hiller , John
            Hinchman , Bill
            Hodges, Gil
            Holmes , Tommy
            Holtzman , Ken
            Hooper , Harry
            Horton , Willie
            Houtteman , Art
            Howard , Frank
            Howard, Elston
            Hoy , Dummy
            Hoyt , Waite
            Huggins , Miller
            Hutchinson , Fred
            Irwin , Charlie
            Jackman , Will
            Jackson , Sonny
            Jennings , Hughie
            Jensen , Jackie
            John , Tommy
            Johnson , Bob
            Johnson , Davey
            Johnson , Judy
            Jones , Charley
            Jones , Fielder
            Jones , Sam P.
            Jordan , Tim
            Joss , Addie
            Judge , Joe
            Jurges , Billy
            Kaat, Jim
            Kamm , Willie
            Kawakami , Tetsuharu
            Kell , George
            Keller , Charlie
            Kelley , Joe
            Keltner , Ken
            Kerr , Dickie
            Kessinger , Don
            Killefer , Bill
            Kilroy , Matt
            Kinder , Ellis
            Klein , Chuck
            Kling , Johnny
            Kluszewski, Ted
            Knabe , Otto
            Koosman , Jerry
            Koyama, Masaaki
            Kremer , Ray
            Kress , Red
            Kuenn, Harvey
            Kuhel , Joe
            Kuzava , Bob
            Lange , Bill
            Lanier , Hal
            Larkin , Henry
            Larsen, Don
            Latham , Arlie
            Lavagetto , Cookie
            Law, Vern
            Lazzeri , Tony
            Leach , Freddy
            Leach , Tommy
            Lee , Bill
            Leever , Sam
            Lemon , Bob
            Leonard , Emil (Dutch)
            Lewis , Duffy
            Lewis, Buddy
            Lindstrom , Freddie
            Lobert , Hans
            Lockman , Whitey
            Lolich, Mickey
            Lollar, Sherm
            Lombardi , Ernie
            Lonborg , Jim
            Long , Herman
            Lopat , Ed
            Lopes , Davey
            Lopez , Al
            Lowe , Bobby
            Lucas , Red
            Lundy , Dick
            Luque , Dolf
            Lyle , Sparky
            Lyons , Denny
            Maglie , Sal
            Maloney, Jim
            Mancuso , Gus
            Manush , Heinie
            Maranville , Rabbit
            Marberry , Firpo
            Marion , Marty
            Maris, Roger
            Marquard , Rube
            Marshall , Mike G.
            Martin , Morrie
            Martin , Pepper
            Mathews , Bobby
            May , Lee
            Mays , Carl
            Mazeroski , Bill
            McAleer , Jimmy
            McCarthy , Tommy
            McCarver , Tim
            McCormick , Frank
            McCormick , Jim
            McDaniel , Lindy
            McDougald, Gil
            McGowan , Bill
            McGraw , Tug
            McInnis , Stuffy
            McLain , Denny
            McLean , Larry
            McMahon, Don
            McManus , Marty
            McMillan, Roy
            McNally , Dave
            McVey , Cal
            Meadows , Lee
            Mendez , Jose
            Messersmith , Andy
            Meusel , Bob
            Miksis , Eddie
            Milan , Clyde
            Millan , Felix
            Miller , Bing
            Miller , Dots
            Miller , Hack
            Monday , Rick
            Monroe , Bill
            Moon, Wally
            Moore , Jo-Jo
            Moore , Terry
            Moran , Pat
            Mostil , Johnny
            Mota, Manny
            Mulcahy , Hugh
            Mullane , Tony
            Mungo , Van
            Munson , Thurman
            Murphy , Danny
            Murray , Red
            Myer , Buddy
            Nehf , Art
            Nettles , Graig
            Newcombe , Don
            Newsom , Bobo
            Nicholson , Bill
            Niekro , Joe
            Northey , Ron
            O'Doul , Lefty
            Oeschger , Joe
            O'Farrell , Bob
            O'Leary , Charlie
            Oliva, Tony
            Oms , Alejandro
            O'Neill , Buck
            O'Neill , Steve
            O'Neill , Tip
            Orr , Dave
            Pabor , Charlie
            Pafko , Andy
            Palmer , Jim
            Pascual, Camilo
            Paskert , Dode
            Pearson , Monte
            Peckinpaugh , Roger
            Peitz , Heinie
            Pennock , Herb
            Perdue , Hub
            Perez , Tony
            Perkins , Cy
            Perranoski , Ron
            Perry , Jim
            Pesky , Johnny
            Petrocelli, Rico
            Phillippe , Deacon 
            Pierce , Billy
            Pike , Lip
            Piniella, Lou
            Pinson, Vada
            Pipp , Wally
            Podres, Johnny
            Poles , Spotswood
            Porterfield , Bob
            Powell , Boog
            Power , Vic
            Pruett , Hub
            Quinn , Jack
            Raschi , Vic
            Raymond , Bugs
            Redding , Dick
            Reiser , Pete
            Remsen , Jack
            Reynolds , Allie
            Rice , Del
            Rice , Sam
            Richardson , Bobby
            Richardson , Hardy
            Ring , Jimmy
            Ritchey , Claude
            Rixey , Eppa
            Rizzuto , Phil
            Robertson , Dave
            Roe , Preacher
            Rolfe , Red
            Rommel , Eddie
            Root , Charlie
            Rosen, Al
            Roush , Edd 
            Rucker , Nap
            Rudolph , Dick
            Ruel , Muddy
            Ryan  , Jimmy
            Sain , Johnny
            Sanguillen , Manny
            Sauer , Hank
            Schacht , Al
            Schaefer , Germany
            Schalk , Ray
            Schang , Wally
            Schoendienst , Red
            Schreckengost , Ossie
            Schulte , Frank
            Scott , Everett
            Scott , Jack
            Selkirk , George
            Severeid , Hank
            Sewell , Joe
            Sewell , Luke
            Sewell , Rip
            Seymour , Cy
            Shantz, Bobby
            Sheckard , Jimmy
            Sherdel , Bill
            Shocker , Urban
            Short , Chris
            Siebert , Sonny
            Sievers , Roy
            Simmons, Curt
            Sisti , Sibby
            Smith , Earl
            Smith , Hilton
            Smith , Reggie
            Smith , Sherry
            Sparks , Tully
            Stahl , Jake
            Stanky , Eddie
            Stanley , Mickey
            Staub , Rusty
            Steinfeldt , Harry
            Stephens , Vern
            Stephenson , Riggs
            Stottlemyre , Mel
            Street , Gabby
            Suhr , Gus
            Sukeforth , Clyde
            Sutton , Don
            Sweeney , Bill
            Tannehill , Jesse
            Taylor , Ben
            Tebbetts , Birdie
            Tenney , Fred
            Thevenow , Tommy
            Thomas , Ira
            Thomson , Bobby
            Tiant, Luis
            Tiernan , Mike
            Tinker , Joe
            Tobin , Jim
            Toney , Fred
            Torgeson, Earl
            Torre, Joe
            Travis, Cecil
            Trouppe , Quincy
            Trout , Dizzy
            Trucks , Virgil
            Turner , Terry
            Uhle , George
            Valo , Elmer
            Van Haltren , George
            Vander Meer , Johnny
            Veach , Bobby
            Vernon , Mickey
            Walberg , Rube
            Walker , Harry
            Walters , Bucky
            Wambsganss , Bill
            Waner , Lloyd
            Warfield , Frank
            Warneke , Lon
            Welch , Mickey
            Werber , Billy
            Wertz, Vic
            West , Sam
            Westrum , Wes
            White , Sol
            White , Will 
            Whitehill , Earl
            Williams , Cy
            Williams , Ken
            Williamson , Ned
            Willis , Vic
            Wills, Maury
            Wilson , Hack
            Wilson , Jim
            Wilson , Jimmie
            Witt , Whitey
            Wood , Joe
            Wood , Wilbur
            Wright , Glenn
            Wyatt , Whit 
            Wynn , Jimmy
            Yerkes , Steve
            York , Rudy
            Young , Pep
            Youngs , Ross
            Zachary , Tom
            Zimmer , Chief
            The complete list of eligible contributors:
            Abe , Iso
            Ashford, Emmet
            Autry, Gene
            Bancroft , Frank
            Barlick, Al
            Berger , Sy
            Brickhouse , Jack
            Buck , Jack 
            Bulkely , Morgan
            Busch , Augie
            Cambria , Joe
            Campbell , Jim
            Canel, Buck
            Caray, Harry
            Carrigan, Bill
            Caylor , O. P.
            Chandler, Happy
            Chylak , Nestor
            Conlan , Jocko
            Cooper , Andy
            Cummings , Candy
            Dark , Alvin
            Dinneen , Bill
            Doubleday , Abner
            Dreyfuss , Barney
            Dyer , Eddie
            Dykes , Jimmy
            Elias , Al Munro
            Evans, Billy
            Feller, Sherm
            Fergsuon, Bob
            Fetzer, John
            Foster , John B.
            Fowler, Bud
            Frick, Ford
            Fullerton , Hugh
            Giles , Warren
            Gleason , Kid
            Gonzalez , Mike
            Gowdy , Curt
            Greenlee, Gus
            Grimm, Charlie
            Haak , Howie
            Haney , Fred
            Harridge, Willie
            Harris , Bucky
            Harris, Vic
            Harwell, Ernie
            Heydler, John
            Hillerich , John
            Hodges, Gil
            Hodges, Russ
            Houk , Ralph
            Howsam, Bob
            Hubbard , Cal
            Hutchinson , Fred
            Jennings , Hughie
            Jobe , Frank
            Krichell, Paul
            Kuenn , Harvey
            Lanigan, Ernest
            Lardner , Ring
            Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W.
            Luque , Dolf
            MacPhail, Lee
            Manley , Effa
            Mauch , Gene
            McCarthy , Tommy
            McGowan, Bill
            Mendez , Jose
            Mills , A. G.
            Mizuhara, Shigeru
            Moran , Pat
            Murnane, Tim
            Murtaugh, Danny
            Mutrie , Jim
            Navin , Frank
            Nelson , Lindsey
            Norworth, Jack
            O'Day, Hank
            O'Doul, Lefty
            O'Neill, Buck
            O'Neill, Steve
            Osborn , Frank
            Pasquel, Jorge
            Patkin, Max
            Pesky , Johnny
            Pompez , Alex 
            Pulliam, Harry
            Ramirez, Felo
            Reese , Jimmie
            Rice, Grantland
            Richards, Paul
            Ritter , Lawrence
            Rizzuto , Phil
            Robinson , Wilbert
            Schoendienst, Red
            Sewell , Luke
            Sheppard, Bob
            Smith, Red
            Stallings , George
            Street, Gabby
            Thayer , Ernest
            Tsuruoka , Kazuto
            Tyson, Ty
            van der Ahe, Chris
            Warfield , Frank
            Weyer , Lee
            Wilson , Horace
            Wrigley, Phil
            Yawkey, Tom
            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


            • #7
              My ballot

              1. Rod Carew
              2. Jim Palmer
              3. Alejandro Oms
              4. Jose Mendez
              5. Luis Tiant
              6. Bob Lemon
              7. Hughie Jennings
              8. Hilton Smith
              9. Roger Bresnahan
              10. Joe Torre
              11. Jimmy Wynn
              12. Joe Kelley

              1. Phil Rizzuto
              2. Kazuto Tsuruoka
              3. Vic Harris
              4. Iso Abe
              5. Tim Murnane

              Rod Carew and Jim Palmer take the two top spots, and Joe Kelley takes the #12 slot. On the contributor side, I added Tim Murnane.
              Last edited by jalbright; 01-22-2011, 10:53 AM.
              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


              • #8

                1. Rod Carew
                2. Jim Palmer
                3. Jimmy Wynn
                4. Reggie Smith
                5. Bob Elliott
                6. Roger Bresnahan
                7. Hilton Smith
                8. Bob Lemon
                9. Jimmy Sheckard
                10. Joe Torre
                11. Hughie Jennings
                12. Alejandro Oms


                1. Harry Caray
                2. Phil Rizzuto
                3. Ford Frick
                4. Kazuto Tsuruoka
                5. Bob Ferguson

                Carew, Palmer and R.Smith enter in at slots 1, 2 and 4 in their debut year. Bob Ferguson hits the contributor's side at slot 5. Hughie Jennings rejoins my ballot at slot 11 and Burleigh Grimes leaves my ballot after some reevaluations.

                In my consideration set are Sal Bando, Jake Beckley, Chief Bender, Wally Berger, Max Bishop, Lou Brock, Perucho Cepeda, Cupid Childs, Hugh Duffy, Bill Freehan, Burleigh Grimes, Dummy Hoy, Charley Jones, Fielder Jones, Joe Kelley, Rabbit Maranville, Cal McVey, Jose Mendez, Thurman Munson, Graig Nettles, Don Newcombe, Tony Perez, Lip Pike, Sam Rice, Pete Rose, Eppa Rixey, Edd Roush, Wally Schang, Joe Sewell, Urban Shocker, Rusty Staub, Luis Tiant Jr., George Van Haltren. Some may make my ballot, some may not depending on who we are looking at in terms of newcomers.

                How does Alejandro Oms compare to Reggie Smith, Jimmy Wynn, Edd Roush and Jimmy Scheckard? He just entered my queue, but I always thought of him as a borderline HOFer and I see he is very close to election.
                Last edited by jjpm74; 01-22-2011, 04:50 PM. Reason: Slotted oms into slot 12 and bumped Bando temporarily.


                • #9
                  I've completely re-worked my ballot, spending the past few weeks tinkering with my personal rankings (instead of actual legal work - I stand by my decision).

                  01. Rod Carew
                  02. Jim Palmer
                  03. Hilton Smith
                  04. Luis Tiant
                  05. Eppa Rixey
                  06. Jose Mendez
                  07. Alejandro Oms
                  08. Wally Berger
                  09. Burleigh Grimes
                  10. Jake Beckley
                  11. Bob Lemon
                  12. Jimmy Wynn

                  01. Frank Jobe
                  02. Kazuto Tsuruoka
                  03. Ford Frick
                  04. Phil Rizzuto
                  05. Vic Harris


                  • #10

                    1. Rod Carew
                    2. Jim Palmer
                    3. Hilton Smith
                    4. Addie Joss
                    5. Alejandro Oms
                    6. Wally Berger
                    7. Jose Mendez
                    8. Luis Tiant
                    9. Roger Bresnahan
                    10. Bob Lemon
                    11. Willard Brown
                    12. Joe Torre


                    1. Ford Frick
                    2. Gus Greenlee
                    3. Phil Rizzuto
                    4. Kazuto Tsuruoka
                    5. Vic Harris


                    • #11
                      1 Rod Carew
                      2 Hughie Jennings
                      3 Jim Palmer
                      4 Charlie Keller
                      5 Joe Kelley
                      6 Don Sutton
                      7 Dick Lundy
                      8 Masaaki Koyama
                      9 Jimmy Sheckard
                      10 Phil Rizzuto
                      11 Alejandro Oms
                      12 Jimmy Wynn

                      Seaver and Carlton were #1 and #2 on my ballot, while Dobie Moore was not close. I can understand a vote for Moore though, as he appears to have had an outstanding peak in the 1920's Negro Leagues, while he deserves credit for his Army Wreckers years. The most subjective part is: how much credit for the army ball? I give him ~3 years of quality play with the Wreckers, which isn't enough.

                      I notice that Don Sutton is not polling well in the early going...Am I overrating this career value candidate?...I could see myself dropping him to the end of ballot or just off if a persuasive informative argument was made...thanks guys. I find his career value to be excellent, while acknowledging that he has no peak, but a solid prime.

                      jjpm74 in post 8 notes:
                      How does Alejandro Oms compare to Reggie Smith, Jimmy Wynn, Edd Roush and Jimmy Scheckard? He just entered my queue, but I always thought of him as a borderline HOFer and I see he is very close to election.
                      Personally, I have Oms, Smith, Wynn, and Sheckard as Personal Hall and Best of Baseball worthy, either low or just off ballot, while Roush is far off. Roush didn't have a particularly impressive long career candidacy and his peak is not exciting. Roush also benefited from much weaker competition from the Federal League and National League of the 1910s.

                      In particular for Oms, MLE's at the Hall of Merit posit the following, from post 163 of the Alejandro Oms thread:


                      OK, here's Oms in my WARP, using the latest available MLE's. To fill in the numerous gaps in Oms's career, I used the same approach that I do for war credit. For the completely undocumented period before he turned 26, I looked at all players who were 26 years old between 1917 and 1925 and played at least half the year in each of their age 26 to age 30 seasons. I ran regressions to see the correlations between their pre-26 MLB playing time and rates and their post-26 performance, and then applied those equations to Oms to get total pre-26 playing time and average rate performance. I then distributed the resulting total value on an increasing scale over his age 21-25 seasons.

                      For his Venezuela seasons, where the data is too scanty to be useful, I looked at all MLB players who had played at least half a season in their age 36, 37, and 40 seasons, and got the correlations between those years and their performance at ages 38 and 39. I did the same for all MLB players who played at least a quarter of the season in their age 40 and 42 seasons against their performance in their age 41 season. The missing 1933, 34, and 36 seasons were filled in using the resulting equations.

                      Here's the result:

                      Year SFrac BWAA BRWAA FWAA Replc WARP
                      1916 0.20 0.2 0.0 0.0 -0.2 0.4
                      1917 0.65 1.1 0.0 0.1 -0.7 1.9
                      1918 0.75 2.1 0.0 0.2 -0.8 3.0
                      1919 0.85 2.8 0.0 0.3 -0.8 3.9
                      1920 0.95 3.6 0.0 0.4 -0.9 4.9
                      1921 0.95 3.8 0.1 0.3 -0.9 5.1
                      1922 1.00 4.5 0.1 0.4 -1.0 6.0
                      1923 0.98 4.0 0.1 0.7 -1.0 5.8
                      1924 0.96 4.0 0.1 0.7 -0.9 5.7
                      1925 0.97 3.2 0.1 0.7 -1.0 5.0
                      1926 0.94 1.2 0.0 0.8 -0.9 3.0
                      1927 0.98 3.1 0.1 0.4 -1.1 4.6
                      1928 1.00 0.6 0.1 0.1 -0.8 1.5
                      1929 0.98 4.9 0.1 -0.1 -1.0 5.9
                      1930 0.62 -0.9 0.0 -0.4 -0.6 -0.6
                      1931 0.91 1.4 0.1 -0.3 -0.9 2.0
                      1932 0.86 0.0 0.0 -0.2 -0.9 0.8
                      1933 0.79 0.4 0.0 0.0 -0.6 0.9
                      1934 0.79 0.4 0.0 0.0 -0.6 0.9
                      1935 0.79 1.3 0.0 -0.1 -0.6 1.8
                      1936 0.48 0.4 -0.1 0.0 -0.4 0.7
                      1937 0.26 0.2 0.0 -0.1 -0.2 0.3
                      TOTL 17.66 42.4 1.0 3.5 -16.7 63.6
                      TXBR 17.05 43.2 1.0 3.9 -16.0 64.2
                      AVRG 1.00 2.4 0.1 0.2 -0.9 3.6

                      3-year peak: 17.7
                      7-year prime: 38.4
                      Career: 64.2
                      Salary: $164,153,473, a lower-tier but clear HoM'er. Worse than Wheat and Magee, similar to Stargell, Killebrew, and Reggie Smith, superior to Goslin, Wynn, and Dawson. Assuming the MLE's aren't super-flattening his career shape, he should be at the very bottom of a peak voter's ballot, as a sizable chunk of his career total comes from "hanging-on" seasons.
                      The Hall of Merit voters also ranked players by position -
                      Oms finished 20th, 1 spot below Earl Averill, 1 ahead of Cool Papa Bell, 2 spots below Jimmy Wynn, 2 spots ahead of Edd Roush. Sheckard is considered a left fielder, with Reggie Smith was elected to the Hall of Merit after Alejandro Oms - both were eligible for many "years" together.

                      I have an order of:
                      Sheckard - appears to have other worldly defense according to most metrics
                      Last edited by Jar of Flies; 02-02-2011, 07:51 AM.
                      Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)


                      • #12
                        Thanks for the excellent writeup on Oms! It appears that he is a lot closer to Scheckard than I originally gave him credit for. I have slotted Oms in at #12 on my ballot and temporarily bumped Sal Bando into my queue.


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post
                          I notice that Don Sutton is not polling well in the early going...Am I overrating this career value candidate?...I could see myself dropping him to the end of ballot or just off if a persuasive informative argument was made...thanks guys. I find his career value to be excellent, while acknowledging that he has no peak, but a solid prime.
                          Don Sutton had a few great years in the early 1970s, followed by a few flashes of greatness later in his career and put together a long career.

                          5000+ IP, and an era+ of 108 combined with his 1971-1977 seasons is enough that I will probably vote for him eventually, but not enough to get consideration over the 12 I'm presently voting for. At present, I have Jim Palmer, Hilton Smith and Jose Mendez ahead of him with Mendez still in my queue.


                          • #14
                            Part of my hitter rankings are based from Dan Rosenheck's interpretation of Wins Above Replacement.

                            And more to explain the numbers:

                            Rosenheck from post 422 of his WAR thread:
                            I think one thing that has prevented some members of the group from making use of my WARP data is that most people aren't paying enough attention to distinguish between the system's results and my own personal idiosyncratic voting preferences (particularly my emphasis on peak rate). To help separate the two, I've applied a different salary estimator--the same equation Nate Silver currently uses to determine the market value of players today--which I think much better reflects the consensus approach to voting.

                            The equation is $1,200,000 * WARP2^1.5 + $380,000. It rewards peak, but not too steeply: one season of 8 WARP2 (a year like Rod Carew's 1975 or Ted Williams's 1948) comes out 38% more valuable than two seasons of 4 WARP2 (a year like Julio Franco's 1986 or Mo Vaughn's 1995), and one season of 12 WARP2 (there aren't many, but Ty Cobb's 1917 is a pretty good fit) is worth 68% more than three seasons of 4 WARP2. And I apply it to seasonal WARP totals rather than rates, so in-season durability is rewarded as most of the group supports.

                            So if you're fairly consensus-minded, and don't feel like taking the time to pore through a spreadsheet with tens of thousands of rows but just want the upshot on the conclusions of my research, here are the results of this Consensus Estimator. 2007 numbers are straight-line adjusted for the remaining 10 games. Strike seasons are filled out using the player's three-year average. 1943 and 45 are penalized with an extra 10% park factor (eg a 95 PF becomes 105) and -2 FRAA, and 1944 is penalized with an extra 20% park factor and -4 FRAA. I did a study on catcher playing time and found they play 58% fewer games than the other 8 positions on average, so catchers receive a flat 58% bonus to their salaries (prorated, so if a guy plays half a season at C and half somewhere else he gets a 29% bonus). War credit is given using the average production of the four surrounding seasons (two on either side); no other account is made for league strength above and beyond the standard deviation. Minor league and Negro League credit is taken from the group's MLE's. I only have data for MLB position players since 1893.
                            Rosenheck has modified the defensive metrics he uses for seasons 1987-2005, but this currently does not effect this salary estimator for the BOB Election. His data correlates .98 with Fangraphs for the 2006-2008 seasons, so the 2006-2010 seasons can be used to analyze current players versus pre 2006 seasons.

                            I have a copy of the most recent Excel spreadsheets if anyone would like me to send them, and they can be downloaded from the Hall of Merit Yahoo group if anyone joins.

                            Rosenheck's system analyzes 1893-2005 WARP figures. He mentions that the run estimators from the pre-1893 era are too weakly correlated for him to be comfortable using them confidently, so he does his best to estimate the values from that time frame.

                            The salary estimator he published in 2007 had the following figures for 1990 eligibles:
                            Hughie Jennings, $176,844,480 (pre-1893 value estimated from BP WARP)
                            xx - Dick Lundy - Rosenheck comments: The closest parallel to him--a defense-first, lowish-peak shortstop with 65 to 70 WARP2--seems to be Bobby Wallace (69.5). Wallace's best seasons by WARP2 were 7.2, 6.1, 5.9, 5.7, 5.6, 5.6, 5.4, while Lundy's are 6.4, 5.0, 5.0, 4.8, 4.7, 4.5, 4.5. So if we give Lundy 67.5/69.5 = 97% of Wallace's peak and prime, we get 6.9, 5.9, 5.7, 5.5, 5.4, 5.4, 5.2, making his 3-year peak 18.5 and his 7-year prime 40.0. That would still make him a low-peak candidate, but would give him a prime comparable to that of Campaneris and Rizzuto. My understanding is that Lundy is very much considered in the pantheon of Negro League players--there's no "But why haven't we heard of him??" issue here as there is with Clarkson. Given that reputation, finding out that he was not even quite the black Bobby Wallace actually seems like something of a disappointment. That said, 97% of Bobby Wallace is clearly a deserving HoM'er. Unless there are further changes to these MLE's, making the above adjustments to his peak puts him 2nd to McGraw on my peak-heavy, rate-based salary estimator and an easy first on my consensus estimator. If there are no further changes to these MLE's, I will have him #2 on my 2006 ballot.

                            Joe Kelley, $174,808,494 (pre-1893 value estimated from BP WARP)
                            Jimmy Sheckard, $173,782,257
                            Phil Rizzuto, $173,175,176 (war credit for 1943-45)
                            Charlie Keller, $173,121,159 (war credit for 1944 and the missing part of 1945)
                            Joe Sewell, $172,113,587
                            Dagoberto Campaneris, $167,565,867
                            Alejandro Oms $164,153,473
                            Gavvy Cravath, $164,012,445 (minor league credit for 1906-7, 9-11) - revision with Rosenheck comments - I think when I calculated Cravath for myself in the past, I was characterizing his fielding as substantially below average in the minors--I had somehow deposited him in the Greg Luzinski/Frank Howard bin. But if his career D was nearly average, then he's a clear HoM'er. A caveat is that my old DRA numbers show Gavvy as quite poor at the MLB level: -25 in 1913, -11 in 1914, +7 in 1915, -20 in 1916, and -11 in 1917. However, I don't think those numbers are park-adjusted, and I imagine there may be a Baker Bowl effect.

                            125. John McGraw, $163,585,393 (pre-1893 value estimated from BP WARP) - elected as a contributor
                            Reggie Smith, $162,388,814 (Japan credit for 1983)
                            Johnny Pesky, $161,323,415 (war credit for 1943-45)
                            xx Lip Pike - Rosenheck places him between Alejandro Oms and Jimmy Wynn on his all-time centerfield rankings.
                            Jake Beckley, $160,305,046 (pre-1893 value estimated from BP WARP)
                            Roger Bresnahan, $159,724,848
                            Jimmy Wynn, $158,445,038
                            Bill Freehan, $157,371,800
                            Tommy Leach, $154,776,307
                            Willard Brown $154,664,663 - Rosenheck comments: just a tiny nudge over the borderline, but probably deserving of election. Worse than Wynn, a bit worse than Dawson, comparable to the unelected Leach, superior to the elected Averill and Roush.
                            Dave Bancroft, $154,096,301
                            xx Cal McVey - rated a notch ahead of Quincy Trouppe in Rosenheck's catcher rankings.
                            xx Quincy Trouppe - Rosenheck rated all-time catchers...Trouppe placement is between Freehan and Tenace.
                            Jim Fregosi, $152,193,178
                            Bob Johnson, $151,852,428
                            Chuck Klein, $151,248,045
                            Rabbit Maranville, $150,875,410 (war credit for 1918)
                            Bobby Bonds, $148,958,773
                            Toby Harrah, $146,788,510
                            Gene Tenace, $146,753,677
                            Kiki Cuyler, $145,816,749
                            Cupid Childs, $145,685,369 (pre-1893 value estimated from BP WARP)

                            Players who received votes in the 1989 Best of Baseball election not mentioned above:
                            Joe Torre, $141,135,719
                            Edd Roush, $140,737,906 (holdout credit for 1922 and 1930)
                            Luis Aparicio, $136,192,622
                            Sal Bando, $116,979,294
                            Bob Elliott, $115,037,913
                            Frank Howard, $110,035,741
                            xx - Wally Berger - projected $ fall between Howard and Cepeda
                            Orlando Cepeda, $104,799,732
                            Sam Rice, $101,995,196
                            Lou Brock, $99,297,793

                            Two players I would like an explanation as to why they were elected here:
                            Nellie Fox, $134,857,927
                            Pie Traynor, $127,883,494
                            Last edited by Jar of Flies; 01-23-2011, 06:52 PM.
                            Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)


                            • #15
                              1. Rod Carew
                              2. Lou Brock
                              3. Jim Palmer
                              4. Joe Torre
                              5. Don Sutton
                              6. Edd Roush
                              7. Frank Howard
                              8. Orlando Cepeda
                              9. Bill Freehan
                              10. Cupid Childs
                              11. Hilton Smith
                              12. Alejandro Oms

                              Tony Perez probably is first in line Reggie Smith too Tommy John in all fairness should be close as well sine I put Sutton in

                              1. O.P. Caylor
                              2. Red Smith
                              3. Billy Evans
                              4. Tommy McCarthy
                              5. Bob Ferguson