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1993 Best of Baseball election thread

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  • 1993 Best of Baseball election thread

    This is our fifty-eighth election in this project. The entire rules follow.

    This election will end at 11:59:59 PM EDT on March 18, 2011.

    The prior election, and the ballots of the 1992 voters, are in this thread
    Last edited by jalbright; 03-07-2011, 05:05 PM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  • #2

    1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance. Should there be unannounced multiple votes from the same IP, I will investigate the circumstances, and all user names involved may be barred from this project as a result, and all but one of the multiple usernames permanently banned from the site. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.

    2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to elect a full complement of candidates for the ballot in question in two of any four consecutive elections, the portion(s) of the project failing to meet the election requirement will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.

    3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.

    4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.

    5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.

    6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the voting is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.

    7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.

    8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.

    9) Each election will run for approximately two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.

    10) No one is excluded from being a candidate, regardless of the league they played in, except those elected in either the contributor or player ballots. At that point, they are removed from further consideration. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project.

    11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. I realize voters will sometimes have idiosyncratic choices, and I try to allow for that. However, a clear flouting of a consensus is apt to be met with a request that the ballot be justified pursuant to this rule. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.

    12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.

    13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration. For players, any request for a multiple time all-star in the all-star era will be approved. Players of that quality will generally be approved without much ado. However, when a player lacks that kind of qualification, I will likely ask for you to get a second from among our voters via a post in the current election thread. When in doubt, I will also require a second for suggested contributors. If a second is forthcoming, the player will be added. If not, the request will be rejected. I want to limit requests and seconds to players or contributors you actually might vote for.

    14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.

    15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.

    16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.

    17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.

    18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 2-1-0 or whatever is appropriate for the number of players tied system. If a voter does not list a candidate, he receives zero points in the tiebreaker procedure. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, the candidate with the most votes received wins. If it is still tied after that, those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.

    19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.

    20) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.

    21) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


    • #3
      The players who become eligible in 1993 are:
      Campbell , Bill
      Cash , Dave
      Cey , Ron
      Concepcion , Dave
      Enatsu , Yutaka
      Foster , George
      Garvey , Steve
      Harrah , Toby
      Jorgenson , Mike
      Kingman , Dave
      Rivers , Mickey
      Russell , Bill
      Yeager , Steve
      On the contributor side, there are no additions this year
      Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
      Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
      A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


      • #4
        The 1992 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:
        players……………..	votes	pts
        Jennings , H	9	57
        Joss , Addie	6	52
        Torre, Joe	9	52
        Bresnahan , R	9	51
        Tiant, Luis	7	51
        Roush , Edd 	7	42
        Wynn, Jimmy	7	39
        Brown, Willard	6	32
        Rixey , Eppa	4	32
        Kelley , Joe	5	30
        Grimes , B	4	29
        Brock, Lou	3	26
        Evans, Darrell	3	22
        Keller , C	3	21
        McVey , Cal	3	19
        Berger , Wally	2	18
        Sheckard , J	4	18
        Beckley , Jake	2	16
        Smith, Reggie	2	13
        Richardson , H	1	10
        Aparicio, Luis	2	9
        Elliott, Bob	1	9
        Howard, Frank	1	7
        Lundy , Dick	1	7
        Cepeda, Orlando	1	6
        Gomez, Lefty	1	6
        Cepeda, Perucho	4	5
        Childs , Cupid	2	5
        Freehan, Bill	1	5
        Bando, Sal	1	4
        Pike , Lip	2	4
        Rizzuto , Phil	1	4
        Matlock, Leroy	1	3
        Perez, Tony	1	3
        Rice , Sam	1	3
        Sewell , Joe	1	3
        Bancroft , Dave	1	2
        Fingers, Rollie	1	2
        Maranville , R	1	2
        Yamamoto, Koji	1	2
        Dandridge, Ray	1	1
        Newcombe, Don	1	1
        The 1992 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:
        contributors……….	votes	pts
        Greenlee, Gus	4	16
        Rizzuto, Phil	5	16
        Caylor , O. P.	4	13
        Harris, Vic	5	10
        Scully, Vin	3	10
        Caray, Harry	2	8
        Evans, Billy	2	8
        Ferguson, Bob	3	8
        Chandler, Happy	2	7
        Elias, Al Munro	3	5
        Jobe, Frank	1	5
        Krichell, Paul	1	4
        Smith, Red	1	4
        Abe, Iso	2	3
        Martin, Billy	1	2
        McCarthy, Tommy	1	2
        Murnane, Tim	1	1
        Murtaugh, Danny	1	1
        I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.
        Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
        Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
        A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


        • #5
          Members of the Best of Baseball Hall. Last election's inductees are in red.

          Hank Aaron
          Pete Alexander
          Dick Allen
          Cap Anson
          Luke Appling
          Richie Ashburn
          Earl Averill
          Frank Baker
          Ernie Banks
          Ross Barnes
          John Beckwith
          Cool Papa Bell
          Johnny Bench
          Charlie Bennett
          Yogi Berra
          Akira Bessho
          Lou Boudreau
          Ken Boyer
          Dan Brouthers
          Mordecai Brown
          Ray Brown
          Jim Bunning
          Jesse Burkett
          Roy Campanella
          Rod Carew
          Max Carey
          Steve Carlton
          Bob Caruthers
          Oscar Charleston
          Fred Clarke
          John Clarkson
          Roberto Clemente
          Ty Cobb
          Mickey Cochrane
          Eddie Collins
          Jimmy Collins
          Roger Connor
          Stan Coveleski
          Sam Crawford
          Joe Cronin
          Bill Dahlen
          George Davis
          Dizzy Dean
          Ed Delahanty
          Bill Dickey
          Martin Dihigo
          Joe DiMaggio
          Larry Doby
          Bobby Doerr
          Don Drysdale
          Buck Ewing
          Red Faber
          Bob Feller
          Wes Ferrell
          Elmer Flick
          Whitey Ford
          Willie Foster
          Nellie Fox
          Jimmie Foxx
          Frankie Frisch
          Pud Galvin
          Lou Gehrig
          Charlie Gehringer
          Bob Gibson
          Josh Gibson
          Jack Glasscock
          Joe Gordon
          George Gore
          Goose Goslin
          Frank Grant
          Hank Greenberg
          Heinie Groh
          Lefty Grove
          Stan Hack
          Billy Hamilton
          Isao Harimoto
          Gabby Hartnett
          Harry Heilmann
          Billy Herman
          Pete Hill
          Paul Hines
          Rogers Hornsby
          Carl Hubbell
          Kazuhisa Inao
          Monte Irvin
          Joe Jackson
          Reggie Jackson
          Ferguson Jenkins
          Grant "Home Run"Johnson
          Walter Johnson
          Al Kaline
          Masaichi Kaneda
          Tim Keefe
          Willie Keeler
          King Kelly
          Harmon Killebrew
          Ralph Kiner
          Sandy Koufax
          Nap LaJoie
          Bob Lemon
          Buck Leonard
          Pop Lloyd
          Ted Lyons
          Biz Mackey
          Sherry Magee
          Mickey Mantle
          Juan Marichal
          Eddie Mathews
          Christy Mathewson
          Willie Mays
          Willie McCovey
          Joe McGinnity
          Bid McPhee
          Joe Medwick
          Jose Mendez
          Minnie Minoso
          Johnny Mize
          Dobie Moore
          Joe Morgan
          Stan Musial
          Shigeo Nagashima
          Hal Newhouser
          Kid Nichols
          Phil Niekro
          Katsuya Nomura
          Sadaharu Oh
          Alejandro Oms
          Jim O'Rourke
          Mel Ott
          Satchel Paige
          Jim Palmer
          Gaylord Perry
          Eddie Plank
          Charlie Radbourn
          Pee Wee Reese
          Robin Roberts
          Brooks Robinson
          Frank Robinson
          Jackie Robinson
          Bullet Joe Rogan
          Pete Rose
          Red Ruffing
          Amos Rusie
          Babe Ruth
          Ron Santo
          Louis Santop
          Tom Seaver
          Al Simmons
          George Sisler
          Enos Slaughter
          Hilton Smith
          Duke Snider
          Warren Spahn
          Tris Speaker
          Victor Starffin
          Willie Stargell
          Joe Start
          Turkey Stearnes
          Harry Stovey
          Mule Suttles
          Don Sutton
          Ezra Sutton
          Bill Terry
          Sam Thompson
          Cristobal Torriente
          Pie Traynor
          Dazzy Vance
          Arky Vaughan
          Rube Waddell
          Honus Wagner
          Bobby Wallace
          Ed Walsh
          Paul Waner
          John M. Ward
          Willie Wells
          Zack Wheat
          Deacon White
          Hoyt Wilhelm
          Billy Williams
          Smoky Joe Williams
          Ted Williams
          Jud Wilson
          George Wright
          Early Wynn
          Carl Yastrzemski
          Cy Young
          Doc Adams
          Mel Allen
          Walter Alston
          Red Barber
          Ed Barrow
          Buzzue Bavasi
          Ed Bolden
          Alexander Cartwright
          Henry Chadwick
          Frank Chance
          Charlie Commiskey
          Charles Conlon
          Tom Connolly
          Jim Creighton
          Jack Dunn
          Leo Durocher
          Rube Foster
          Ford Frick
          Clark Griffith
          Ned Hanlon
          William Hulbert
          Miller Huggins
          Ban Johnson
          Tetsuharu Kawakami
          Bill Klem
          Kenesaw Landis
          Tommy Lasorda
          Al Lopez
          Connie Mack
          Larry MacPhail
          Joe McCarthy
          John McGraw
          Bill McKechnie
          Marvin Miller
          Walter O'Malley
          Dickey Pearce
          Cum Posey
          A. J. Reach
          Francis Richter
          Branch Rickey
          Jacob Ruppert
          Frank Selee
          Ben Shibe
          Matsutaro Shoriki
          Billy Southworth
          Al Spalding
          Alfred Spink
          J. G. T. Spink
          Casey Stengel
          C. I. Taylor
          Kazuto Tsuruoka
          Bill Veeck
          George Weiss
          Sol White
          J. L. Wilkinson
          Harry Wright
          Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
          Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
          A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


          • #6
            The complete list of eligible players:
            Adams , Babe
            Adams , Bobby
            Adams , Sparky
            Allen , Johnny
            Alou , Jesus
            Alou , Matty
            Alou, Felipe
            Altrock , Nick
            Aparicio, Luis
            Archer , Jimmy
            Arlett , Buzz
            Austin , Jimmy
            Avila, Bobby
            Bailey , Bob 
            Bancroft , Dave
            Bando , Sal
            Barry , Jack
            Bartell , Dick
            Battin , Joe
            Bauer , Hank
            Beaumont , Ginger
            Beckert, Glenn
            Beckley , Jake
            Belanger , Mark
            Bender , Chief
            Benton , Larry
            Berg , Moe
            Bergen , Marty
            Berger , Wally
            Berry , Charlie
            Bibby , Jim 
            Bigbee , Carson
            Billingham , Jack
            Bishop , Max
            Blackwell , Ewell
            Blades , Ray
            Blair , Paul
            Blass , Steve
            Blue , Lu
            Bluege , Ossie
            Bodie , Ping
            Boley , Joe
            Bond , Tommy
            Bonds , Bobby
            Boone, Bob
            Bottomley , Jim
            Bowa , Larry
            Boyer , Clete
            Bradley , Bill
            Brecheen , Harry
            Breitenstein , Ted
            Bresnahan , Roger
            Brewer , Jim 
            Bridges , Tommy
            Brock, Lou
            Brown , Willard
            Browning , Pete
            Bruton, Bill
            Burdette , Lew
            Burgess , Smoky  
            Burns , George J.
            Bush  , Joe
            Bush , Donie
            Bush , Guy
            Cadore , Leon
            Camilli , Dolph
            Camnitz , Howie
            Campaneris , Bert
            Campbell , Bill
            Cardenal , Jose
            Cardenas , Leo 
            Carrasquel. Chico 
            Carrigan , Bill
            Carroll, Clay
            Case , George
            Cash , Dave
            Cash, Norm
            Cavaretta , Phil
            Cepeda , Orlando
            Cepeda , Perucho
            Cey , Ron
            Chandler , Spud
            Chapman , Ben
            Chapman , Ray
            Chapman , Sam
            Chase , Hal
            Chesbro , Jack
            Childs , Cupid
            Cicotte , Eddie
            Cissell , Bill
            Clark , Watty
            Clarkson , Bus
            Clift, Harlond
            Coakley , Andy
            Colavito, Rocky
            Collins , Shano
            Combs , Earle
            Concepcion , Dave
            Conroy , Wid
            Coombs , Jack
            Cooper , Andy
            Cooper , Mort
            Cooper , Walker
            Cooper , Wilbur
            Courtney , Clint
            Cox , Billy
            Crandall , Doc
            Crandall, Del
            Cravath , Gavvy
            Criger , Lou
            Critz , Hughie
            Cross , Lave
            Crowder , Al 
            Cruise , Walt
            Cruz , Jose
            Cuccinello , Tony
            Cummings , Candy
            Cuyler , Kiki
            Dandridge , Ray
            Danning , Harry
            Dark , Alvin
            Daubert , Jake
            Davis , Curt
            Davis , Harry
            Davis , Spud
            Day , Leon
            Derringer , Paul
            DiMaggio , Dom
            Dinneen , Bill
            Doak , Bill
            Donlin , Mike
            Donovan , Bill
            Dooin , Red
            Doyle , Jack 
            Doyle , Larry
            Dropo , Walt
            Duffy , Hugh
            Dugan , Joe
            Dunlap , Fred
            Dykes , Jimmy
            Earnshaw , George
            Easter, Luke
            Edwards , Hank
            Ehmke , Howard
            Elberfeld , Kid
            Elliott , Bob
            Elliott , Jumbo
            Ellis , Dock
            Enatsu , Yutaka
            Ennis, Del
            Ens , Jewel
            Erskine , Carl
            Evans , Darrell
            Evers , Johnny
            Face, Roy
            Fairly , Ron
            Falkenberg , Cy
            Ferrell , Rick
            Fingers , Rollie
            Fitzsimmons , Freddie
            Fletcher , Art
            Flood , Curt
            Fonseca , Lew
            Foster , Eddie
            Foster , George
            Fraser , Chick
            Freehan, Bill
            Fregosi , Jim
            Furillo , Carl
            Galan , Augie
            Garver, Ned
            Garvey , Steve
            Gelbert , Charlie
            Gleason , Kid
            Gomez , Lefty
            Gonzalez , Mike
            Gowdy , Hank
            Grant , Eddie
            Grantham , George
            Grimes , Burleigh
            Grimm , Charlie
            Grissom , Marv
            Groat, Dick
            Gromek , Steve
            Grove , Orval
            Gustine , Frank
            Haas , Mule
            Haddix, Harvey
            Hafey , Chick
            Hahn , Noodles
            Haines , Jesse
            Hallahan , Bill
            Harder , Mel
            Hargrave , Bubbles
            Harrah , Toby
            Harrelson , Bud
            Harris , Bucky
            Harris , Vic
            Hatton , Grady
            Hearn , Jim 
            Hebner , Richie
            Hegan , Jim
            Helms, Tommy
            Hemus , Solly
            Henrich , Tommy
            Herman , Babe
            Herzog , Buck 
            Hickman , Jim
            Higgins , Mike
            Hiller , John
            Hinchman , Bill
            Hodges, Gil
            Holmes , Tommy
            Holtzman , Ken
            Hooper , Harry
            Horton , Willie
            Houtteman , Art
            Howard , Frank
            Howard, Elston
            Hoy , Dummy
            Hoyt , Waite
            Huggins , Miller
            Hunter , Catfish
            Hutchinson , Fred
            Irwin , Charlie
            Jackman , Will
            Jackson , Sonny
            Jennings , Hughie
            Jensen , Jackie
            John , Tommy
            Johnson , Bob
            Johnson , Davey
            Johnson , Judy
            Jones , Charley
            Jones , Fielder
            Jones , Sam P.
            Jordan , Tim
            Jorgenson , Mike
            Joss , Addie
            Judge , Joe
            Jurges , Billy
            Kaat, Jim
            Kamm , Willie
            Kawakami , Tetsuharu
            Kell , George
            Keller , Charlie
            Kelley , Joe
            Keltner , Ken
            Kerr , Dickie
            Kessinger , Don
            Killefer , Bill
            Kilroy , Matt
            Kinder , Ellis
            Kingman , Dave
            Klein , Chuck
            Kling , Johnny
            Kluszewski, Ted
            Knabe , Otto
            Koosman , Jerry
            Koyama, Masaaki
            Kremer , Ray
            Kress , Red
            Kuenn, Harvey
            Kuhel , Joe
            Kuzava , Bob
            Lange , Bill
            Lanier , Hal
            Larkin , Henry
            Larsen, Don
            Latham , Arlie
            Lavagetto , Cookie
            Law, Vern
            Lazzeri , Tony
            Leach , Freddy
            Leach , Tommy
            Lee , Bill
            Lee , Bill (Spaceman)
            Leever , Sam
            Leonard , Emil (Dutch)
            Lewis , Duffy
            Lewis, Buddy
            Lindstrom , Freddie
            Lobert , Hans
            Lockman , Whitey
            Lolich, Mickey
            Lollar, Sherm
            Lombardi , Ernie
            Lonborg , Jim
            Long , Herman
            Lopat , Ed
            Lopes , Davey
            Lopez , Al
            Lowe , Bobby
            Lowenstein , John
            Lucas , Red
            Lundy , Dick
            Luque , Dolf
            Lyle , Sparky
            Lyons , Denny
            Maglie , Sal
            Maloney, Jim
            Mancuso , Gus
            Manush , Heinie
            Maranville , Rabbit
            Marberry , Firpo
            Marion , Marty
            Maris, Roger
            Marquard , Rube
            Marshall , Mike G.
            Martin , Morrie
            Martin , Pepper
            Mathews , Bobby
            May , Lee
            Mays , Carl
            Mazeroski , Bill
            McAleer , Jimmy
            McCarthy , Tommy
            McCarver , Tim
            McCormick , Frank
            McCormick , Jim
            McDaniel , Lindy
            McDougald, Gil
            McGowan , Bill
            McGraw , Tug
            McInnis , Stuffy
            McLain , Denny
            McLean , Larry
            McMahon, Don
            McManus , Marty
            McMillan, Roy
            McNally , Dave
            McVey , Cal
            Meadows , Lee
            Messersmith , Andy
            Meusel , Bob
            Miksis , Eddie
            Milan , Clyde
            Millan , Felix
            Miller , Bing
            Miller , Dots
            Miller , Hack
            Monday , Rick
            Money , Don
            Monroe , Bill
            Moon, Wally
            Moore , Jo-Jo
            Moore , Terry
            Moran , Pat
            Mostil , Johnny
            Mota, Manny
            Mulcahy , Hugh
            Mullane , Tony
            Mungo , Van
            Munson , Thurman
            Murcer , Bobby
            Murphy , Danny
            Murray , Red
            Myer , Buddy
            Nehf , Art
            Nettles , Graig
            Newcombe , Don
            Newsom , Bobo
            Nicholson , Bill
            Niekro , Joe
            Northey , Ron
            O'Doul , Lefty
            Oeschger , Joe
            O'Farrell , Bob
            O'Leary , Charlie
            Oliva, Tony
            Oliver , Al
            O'Neill , Buck
            O'Neill , Steve
            O'Neill , Tip
            Orr , Dave
            Pabor , Charlie
            Pafko , Andy
            Pascual, Camilo
            Paskert , Dode
            Pearson , Monte
            Peckinpaugh , Roger
            Peitz , Heinie
            Pennock , Herb
            Perdue , Hub
            Perez , Tony
            Perkins , Cy
            Perranoski , Ron
            Perry , Jim
            Pesky , Johnny
            Petrocelli, Rico
            Phillippe , Deacon 
            Pierce , Billy
            Pike , Lip
            Piniella, Lou
            Pinson, Vada
            Pipp , Wally
            Podres, Johnny
            Poles , Spotswood
            Porterfield , Bob
            Powell , Boog
            Power , Vic
            Pruett , Hub
            Quinn , Jack
            Raschi , Vic
            Raymond , Bugs
            Redding , Dick
            Reiser , Pete
            Remsen , Jack
            Reynolds , Allie
            Rice , Del
            Rice , Sam
            Richardson , Bobby
            Richardson , Hardy
            Ring , Jimmy
            Ritchey , Claude
            Rivers , Mickey
            Rixey , Eppa
            Rizzuto , Phil
            Robertson , Dave
            Roe , Preacher
            Rolfe , Red
            Rommel , Eddie
            Root , Charlie
            Rosen, Al
            Roush , Edd 
            Rucker , Nap
            Rudolph , Dick
            Ruel , Muddy
            Russell , Bill
            Ryan  , Jimmy
            Sain , Johnny
            Sanguillen , Manny
            Sauer , Hank
            Schacht , Al
            Schaefer , Germany
            Schalk , Ray
            Schang , Wally
            Schoendienst , Red
            Schreckengost , Ossie
            Schulte , Frank
            Scott , Everett
            Scott , Jack
            Selkirk , George
            Severeid , Hank
            Sewell , Joe
            Sewell , Luke
            Sewell , Rip
            Seymour , Cy
            Shantz, Bobby
            Sheckard , Jimmy
            Sherdel , Bill
            Shocker , Urban
            Short , Chris
            Siebert , Sonny
            Sievers , Roy
            Simmons, Curt
            Singleton , Ken
            Sisti , Sibby
            Smith , Earl
            Smith , Reggie
            Smith , Sherry
            Sparks , Tully
            Stahl , Jake
            Stanky , Eddie
            Stanley , Mickey
            Staub , Rusty
            Steinfeldt , Harry
            Stephens , Vern
            Stephenson , Riggs
            Stottlemyre , Mel
            Street , Gabby
            Suhr , Gus
            Sukeforth , Clyde
            Sweeney , Bill
            Tannehill , Jesse
            Taylor , Ben
            Tebbetts , Birdie
            Tekulve, Kent
            Tenace , Gene
            Tenney , Fred
            Thevenow , Tommy
            Thomas , Ira
            Thomson , Bobby
            Tiant, Luis
            Tiernan , Mike
            Tinker , Joe
            Tobin , Jim
            Toney , Fred
            Torgeson, Earl
            Torre, Joe
            Torrez , Mike
            Travis, Cecil
            Trouppe , Quincy
            Trout , Dizzy
            Trucks , Virgil
            Turner , Terry
            Uhle , George
            Valo , Elmer
            Van Haltren , George
            Vander Meer , Johnny
            Veach , Bobby
            Vernon , Mickey
            Walberg , Rube
            Walker , Harry
            Walters , Bucky
            Wambsganss , Bill
            Waner , Lloyd
            Warfield , Frank
            Warneke , Lon
            Watson , Bob 
            Welch , Mickey
            Werber , Billy
            Wertz, Vic
            West , Sam
            Westrum , Wes
            White , Sol
            White , Will 
            Whitehill , Earl
            Williams , Cy
            Williams , Ken
            Williamson , Ned
            Willis , Vic
            Wills, Maury
            Wilson , Hack
            Wilson , Jim
            Wilson , Jimmie
            Witt , Whitey
            Wood , Joe
            Wood , Wilbur
            Wright , Glenn
            Wyatt , Whit 
            Wynn , Jimmy
            Yamamoto , Koji
            Yeager , Steve
            Yerkes , Steve
            York , Rudy
            Young , Pep
            Youngs , Ross
            Zachary , Tom
            Zimmer , Chief
            The complete list of eligible contributors:
            Abe , Iso
            Ashford, Emmet
            Autry, Gene
            Bancroft , Frank
            Barlick, Al
            Berger , Sy
            Brickhouse , Jack
            Buck , Jack 
            Bulkely , Morgan
            Busch , Augie
            Cambria , Joe
            Campbell , Jim
            Canel, Buck
            Caray, Harry
            Carrigan, Bill
            Caylor , O. P.
            Chandler, Happy
            Chylak , Nestor
            Conlan , Jocko
            Cooper , Andy
            Cummings , Candy
            Dark , Alvin
            Davids , Bob 
            Dinneen , Bill
            Doubleday , Abner
            Dreyfuss , Barney
            Dyer , Eddie
            Dykes , Jimmy
            Elias , Al Munro
            Evans, Billy
            Feller, Sherm
            Fergsuon, Bob
            Fetzer, John
            Foster , John B.
            Fowler, Bud
            Fullerton , Hugh
            Giles , Warren
            Gleason , Kid
            Gonzalez , Mike
            Gowdy , Curt
            Greenlee, Gus
            Grimm, Charlie
            Haak , Howie
            Haney , Fred
            Harridge, Willie
            Harris , Bucky
            Harris, Vic
            Harwell, Ernie
            Heydler, John
            Hillerich , John
            Hodges, Gil
            Hodges, Russ
            Houk , Ralph
            Howsam, Bob
            Hubbard , Cal
            Hutchinson , Fred
            Jennings , Hughie
            Jobe , Frank
            Krichell, Paul
            Kuenn , Harvey
            Kuhn , Bowie
            Lanigan, Ernest
            Lardner , Ring
            Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W.
            Luque , Dolf
            MacPhail, Lee
            Manley , Effa
            Martin  , Billy
            Mauch , Gene
            McCarthy , Tommy
            McGowan, Bill
            Mendez , Jose
            Mills , A. G.
            Mizuhara, Shigeru
            Moran , Pat
            Murnane, Tim
            Murtaugh, Danny
            Mutrie , Jim
            Navin , Frank
            Nelson , Lindsey
            Norworth, Jack
            O'Day, Hank
            O'Doul, Lefty
            O'Neill, Buck
            O'Neill, Steve
            Osborn , Frank
            Pasquel, Jorge
            Patkin, Max
            Pesky , Johnny
            Pompez , Alex 
            Pulliam, Harry
            Ramirez, Felo
            Reese , Jimmie
            Rice, Grantland
            Richards, Paul
            Ritter , Lawrence
            Rizzuto , Phil
            Robinson , Wilbert
            Schoendienst, Red
            Scully, Vin
            Sewell , Luke
            Sheppard, Bob
            Smith, Red
            Stallings , George
            Street, Gabby
            Thayer , Ernest
            Tyson, Ty
            van der Ahe, Chris
            Warfield , Frank
            Weyer , Lee
            Wilson , Horace
            Wrigley, Phil
            Yawkey, Tom
            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


            • #7
              My ballot

              1. Luis Tiant
              2. Hughie Jennings
              3. Roger Bresnahan
              4. Joe Torre
              5. Jimmy Wynn
              6. Joe Kelley
              7. Willard Brown
              8. Charlie Keller
              9.Perucho Cepeda
              10. Cupid Childs
              11. Sal Bando
              12. Quincy Trouppe

              1. Phil Rizzuto
              2. Vic Harris
              3. Iso Abe
              4. Al Munro Elias
              5. Vin Scully

              I'm adding Sal Bando and Quincy Trouppe in the 11th and 12th spots. On the contributor side, Al Munro Elias enters the ballot. On the contributor side, Vin Scully enters in the bottom spot..
              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


              • #8
                Quincy Trouppe

                He had a nice long career as a catcher in the Negro Leagues, over 20 years. The BBTF guys figure him at around 260+ career win shares, 78 in his best three seasons and 105 in his best five consecutive. They think he would have been a 270/370/420 hitter, good for a 119 OPS+, in about 7200 AB.

                AG2004's take on Trouppe is instructive, I think:
                I realized that seven All-Star-Type seasons (20+ win shares) was the general cut-off area for post-1925 catchers and the BBFHOF; for the other field positions, eight was the general cut-off. Hartnett, who is a consensus member of the BBFHOF, has seven such seasons. Ivan Rodriguez, who most people here would consider worthy of Cooperstown, has also recorded seven such seasons. Since catching, more than playing any other of the eight "everyday" positions, makes high demands on the human body, and since there seems to be a limit on how often a human can catch, putting the cutoff a little lower here makes sense.

                For this reason, the de facto cutoffs that the BBFHOF has established for win shares are lower at catcher than at the other positions. Again, since there are physical limits to how often a human being can catch, I don't have a problem with this. Since Trouppe has reached these standards, he belongs in the BBFHOF.

                Case to Consider: TROUPPE, Quincy

                1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?


                2. Was he the best player on his team?

                Between late 1944 and 1947, Trouppe was considered the star of the Cleveland Buckeyes. While the team was mediocre in 1946, it did win the pennant in 1945 and 1947.

                3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

                Trouppe’s MLEs project him with as many or more win shares than the top MLB catchers in 1939, 1941, 1942, 1946, 1947, and 1948, and more win shares than the top AL catcher in 1940 and 1943.

                However, only in 1947 and 1948 was Trouppe the best catcher in baseball. Until 1946, Josh Gibson was far and away the best catcher in the game, and Trouppe would have looked poor by comparison. (Next to Gibson’s MLEs, all other catchers look poor by comparison.)

                4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

                Cleveland won the NAL pennants in 1945 and 1947. In the 1945 Negro World Series, Trouppe batted over .400 as the Buckeyes swept the favored Homestead Grays.

                5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?

                Trouppe had an All-Star-type season in 1948, at the age of 35, and caught for a few years more. Due to the color line, he didn’t appear in the major leagues until 1952, when he played in six games at age 39. I have to answer yes here.

                6. Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

                I doubt that Trouppe is the best player outside the BBFHOF.

                7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?

                Baseballthinkfactory’s MLEs credit Trouppe with 260+ career win shares and 113 in his best five consecutive seasons. They credit him with 84 win shares in his best three seasons. Dr. Chaleeko knocked down the figures for 1938 and 1946 on the grounds that Trouppe wouldn’t have caught as much in the major leagues as a linear translation would indicate. Since his five-year peak lasted from 1939 to 1943, the adjustments don’t affect that mark.

                The adjustments would lower Trouppe’s best three seasons from 84 to 79, however. On the other hand, in 1946, Trouppe was playing in Negro League games, and they counted in the standings for his team. Furthermore, the BTF people admit that their MLEs, while good for career value and five-year consecutive peaks, do understate the value of a player’s best three seasons, as they flatten out the peaks and valleys in individual seasons. For this reasons, I’ll use the unadjusted 84 figure here.

                Comparable career win shares, C: Mickey Cochrane 275, Bill Freehan 267, TROUPPE 260+, Lance Parrish 248, and Wally Schang 245. From 1933 to 1936, Trouppe played for a very good Bismarck team that held its own against established Black Baseball clubs. Due to a lack of data, there are no MLEs for those seasons, and credit for them would certainly push Trouppe above 275. Since every eligible MLB catcher with 267+ career win shares is in the BBFHOF, Trouppe exceeds the cutoff mark here.

                Best three seasons: Bill Dickey 87, Ted Simmons 86, TROUPPE 84, Roger Bresnahan 83, Gene Tenace 83, Darren Daulton 83, Gabby Hartnett 80. Trouppe is in the gray area.

                Best five consecutive seasons: Elston Howard 119, Roger Bresnahan 116, Gabby Hartnett 114, QUINCY TROUPPE 113, Mickey Tettleton 111, Thurman Munson 111, Carlton Fisk 106. Again, Trouppe lands in the gray area.

                8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

                The ink and HOF Standards tests aren’t applicable here. While Trouppe is not in Cooperstown, he is in the Hall of Merit.

                9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

                Between 1933 and 1936, Trouppe was playing high-level ball with an independent Bismarck team, but statistics from that period are limited.

                10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?

                I believe that Trouppe is the best eligible catcher outside the BBFHOF. He has the lead in career value, and is in the gray area in the peak measures.

                11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

                Before the playing time adjustment was made, Trouppe was credited with 31 win shares in 1946. That would have been Trouppe’s only season with 30+ win shares, according to the MLEs.

                12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

                Trouppe was named to five teams for the East-West game, and probably would have been on several more had it not been for all his years in Mexico. Trouppe has seven seasons that come out to 20+ win shares, and that is the lower limit for post-1920 catchers. He might have had another one or two with Bismarck, but we don’t have data for those years.

                13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

                At his best, yes.

                14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

                Not that I know of.

                15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

                As far as I can tell, yes.

                CONCLUSION: Trouppe really did come along twenty years too soon. The fact that he played for so many teams, all for short periods of time, kept him from being associated with any one club, and that hurt him when Negro League players were finally recognized. It didn’t help that several of those teams were outside the organized Negro Leagues (Bismarck, the Mexican League teams). Also, Josh Gibson was, by far, the best catcher in baseball during Trouppe’s peak.

                However, the statistical analysis at baseballthinkfactory has cleared away a lot of the screens standing between us and Trouppe. Trouppe’s peak puts him in the gray area for the BBFHOF, and his total career value puts him in the “admit-me” realm. He also had seven documented seasons with 20+ win shares, which seems to be the real cut-off line for catchers (Hartnett had seven such seasons, and, as of February 2008, Ivan Rodriguez also has seven). Trouppe’s record as a catcher makes him deserving of the BBFHOF.
                from pages 50-53 of the recent book on the Mexican Leagues, South of the Color Barrier by John Virtue and p. 347 of Riley's Negro League Biographical Encyclopedia: some teammates of Trouppe's on the Bismarck, ND team: Satchel Paige (!!), Hilton Smith (!), Red Haley of the Memphis Red Sox, Double Duty Radcliffe (six Negro League all star games, though probably some duplicates in a year because they often played two), Barney Morris (made 2 Negro League All-Star games) and Chet Brewer (again a Negro League multiple season all-star) and Roosevelt Davis (Pittsburgh Crawfords and Cleveland Buckeyes). That Bismarck team was a true powerhouse.
                Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


                • #9
                  Caylor returns

                  1. Vin Scully
                  2. Bob Ferguson
                  3. Gus Greenlee
                  4. Tim Murnane
                  5. O.P. Caylor


                  • #10

                    1. Jimmy Wynn
                    2. Reggie Smith
                    3. Roger Bresnahan
                    4. Jimmy Sheckard
                    5. Joe Torre
                    6. Hughie Jennings
                    7. Luis Tiant Jr.
                    8. Sal Bando
                    9. Cal McVey
                    10. Perucho Cepeda
                    11.Rabbit Maranville
                    12. Urban Shocker


                    1. Phil Rizzuto
                    2. Bob Ferguson
                    3. O.P. Caylor
                    4. Gus Greenlee
                    5. Al Munro Elias

                    Out of the newly eligible, Dave Concepcion and Steve Garvey are good enough to join my queue, but not strong enough to make it onto my ballot.

                    I did some reshuffling to work some pitchers into my ballot. Bob Elliott is back in my player queue. Luis Tiant Jr. and Urban Shocker join my ballot with some minor rank changes taking place. On the contributor's side, Harry Caray joins my queue with Gus Greenlee and Al Munro Elias taking slots 4 and 5 and the 3 other holdovers moving up a lot each. Iso Abe, Harry Caray, Happy Chandler, Jocko Conlan, Candy Cummings, Bud Fowler, Vic Harris, Gil Hodges, Ring Lardner, Billy Martin, Shigeru Mizuhara, Lefty O'Doul, Red Schoendienst and Vin Scully are all being strongly considered at this point.

                    In my consideration set on the players side are Luis Aparicio, Dave Bancroft, Jake Beckley, Chief Bender, Wally Berger, Max Bishop, Bobby Bonds, Bob Boone, Harry Brecheen, Willard Brown, Pete Browning, Lou Brock, Orlando Cepeda, Cupid Childs, Dave Concepcion, Leon Day, Bill Dinneen, Hugh Duffy, Bill Freehan, Steve Garvey, Burleigh Grimes, Dummy Hoy, Catfish Hunter, Charley Jones, Fielder Jones, Joe Kelley, Tommy Leach, Thurman Munson, Graig Nettles, Don Newcombe, Tony Perez, Lip Pike, Spotswood Poles, Jack Quinn, Sam Rice, Hardy Richardson, Eppa Rixey, Edd Roush, Wally Schang, Joe Sewell, Rusty Staub, Quincy Trouppe, George Van Haltren. Some may make my ballot, some may not depending on who we are looking at in terms of newcomers.
                    Last edited by jjpm74; 03-05-2011, 11:21 AM.


                    • #11
                      01. Luis Tiant
                      02. Eppa Rixey
                      03. Wally Berger
                      04. Jake Beckley
                      05. Jimmy Wynn
                      06. Burleigh Grimes
                      07. Willard Brown
                      08. Addie Joss
                      09. Koji Yamamoto
                      10. Perucho Cepeda
                      11. Quincy Trouppe
                      12. Urban Shocker

                      01. Frank Jobe
                      02. Vin Scully
                      03. Phil Rizzuto
                      04. Vic Harris
                      05. Gus Greenlee


                      • #12

                        1. Addie Joss
                        2. Wally Berger
                        3. Luis Tiant
                        4. Roger Bresnahan
                        5. Willard Brown
                        6. Joe Torre
                        7. Hughie Jennings
                        8. Edd Roush
                        9. Perucho Cepeda
                        10. Jimmy Wynn
                        11. Lou Brock
                        12. Luis Aparicio


                        1. Gus Greenlee
                        2. Phil Rizzuto
                        3. Vic Harris
                        4. Iso Abe
                        5. Vin Scully


                        • #13
                          1. Hughie Jennings
                          2. Charlie Keller
                          3. Darrell Evans
                          4. Cal McVey
                          5. Joe Kelley
                          6. Willard Brown
                          7. Jimmy Wynn
                          8. Leroy Matlock
                          9. Lip Pike
                          10. Jimmy Sheckard
                          11. Bill Freehan
                          12. Hardy Richardson


                          • #14
                            1. Lou Brock
                            2. Joe Torre
                            3. Edd Roush
                            4. Frank Howard
                            5. Orlando Cepeda
                            6. Bill Freehan
                            7. Cupid Childs
                            8. Tony Perez
                            9. Dave Bancroft
                            10. Ray Dandridge
                            11. Tommy Leach
                            12. Darrell Evans

                            queing up now are: Pinson, Evers, Maranville, Reggie Smith and Tommy John to name a few.

                            1. O.P. Caylor
                            2. Red Smith
                            3. Billy Evans
                            4. Tommy McCarthy
                            5. Bob Ferguson


                            • #15

                              1. Willard Brown
                              2. Joe Torre
                              3. Addie Joss
                              4. Roger Bresnahan
                              5. Eppa Rixey
                              6. Edd Roush
                              7. Joe Sewell
                              8. Rollie Fingers
                              9. Luis Aparicio
                              10. Joe Kelley
                              11. Wally Berger
                              12. Bill Freehan

                              Three new names; two of them a long time coming, and one of the recent holdovers. Reggie Smith is next among position players. A group of seven pitchers are also trying to edge onto the ballot, though I suspect one of them (Luis Tiant) will be elected soon. As expected Ron Cey is the highest newcomer in the queue (#11 position player, just ahead of Sal Bando).


                              1. Paul Krichell
                              2. Al Munro Elias
                              3. Billy Martin
                              4. Danny Murtaugh
                              5. Charlie Grimm

                              No surprises here as I stay true to form. I may hold off on Sy Berger if there is no one to champion his cause; there are plenty of names to take his place. I'm thinking Cal Hubbard.