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1998 Best of Baseball election thread

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  • 1998 Best of Baseball election thread

    This is our sixty-third election in this project. The entire rules follow.

    This election will end at 11:59:59 PM EDT on May 20, 2011

    The prior election, and the ballots of the 1997 voters, are in this thread
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  • #2

    1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance. Should there be unannounced multiple votes from the same IP, I will investigate the circumstances, and all user names involved may be barred from this project as a result, and all but one of the multiple usernames permanently banned from the site. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.

    2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to elect a full complement of candidates for the ballot in question in two of any four consecutive elections, the portion(s) of the project failing to meet the election requirement will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.

    3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.

    4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.

    5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.

    6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the voting is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.

    7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.

    8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.

    9) Each election will run for approximately two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.

    10) No one is excluded from being a candidate, regardless of the league they played in, except those elected in either the contributor or player ballots. At that point, they are removed from further consideration. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project.

    11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. I realize voters will sometimes have idiosyncratic choices, and I try to allow for that. However, a clear flouting of a consensus is apt to be met with a request that the ballot be justified pursuant to this rule. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.

    12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.

    13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration. For players, any request for a multiple time all-star in the all-star era will be approved. Players of that quality will generally be approved without much ado. However, when a player lacks that kind of qualification, I will likely ask for you to get a second from among our voters via a post in the current election thread. When in doubt, I will also require a second for suggested contributors. If a second is forthcoming, the player will be added. If not, the request will be rejected. I want to limit requests and seconds to players or contributors you actually might vote for.

    14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.

    15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.

    16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.

    17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.

    18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 2-1-0 or whatever is appropriate for the number of players tied system. If a voter does not list a candidate, he receives zero points in the tiebreaker procedure. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, the candidate with the most votes received wins. If it is still tied after that, those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.

    19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.

    20) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.

    21) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


    • #3
      The players who become eligible in 1998 are:
      Brett , George
      Candelaria , John
      Hernandez , Keith
      Parrish , Larry
      Quisenberry , Dan
      Rice , Jim
      Sutter , Bruce
      There are no new contributors to add to the list.
      Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
      Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
      A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


      • #4
        The 1997 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:
        Player………………	votes	pts
        Joss , Addie	6	63
        Roush , Edd 	6	58
        Keller , C	6	45
        Brock, Lou	5	39
        Evans, Dwight	5	37
        Rixey , Eppa	4	36
        Cepeda, Perucho	5	33
        Grimes , B	3	31
        Reuschel, Rick	5	28
        Aparicio, Luis	5	26
        Beckley , Jake	4	25
        Koyama, Masaaki	5	23
        Sheckard , J	5	23
        Berger , Wally	3	22
        Freehan, Bill	5	21
        Evans, Darrell	3	20
        Smith, Reggie	4	18
        Bando, Sal	3	17
        McVey , Cal	2	17
        Childs , Cupid	2	13
        Shocker, Urban	3	13
        Howard, Frank	1	9
        Cepeda, Orlando	1	8
        Gomez, Lefty	1	8
        Lundy , Dick	1	8
        Sewell , Joe	1	8
        Fingers, Rollie	1	7
        Dandridge, Ray	3	6
        Trouppe, Quincy	2	6
        Bancroft , Dave	1	5
        Maranville , R	1	5
        Matlock, Leroy	1	5
        Mullane , Tony	1	5
        Leach , Tommy	1	4
        Perez, Tony	2	4
        Pierce, Billy	3	4
        Pike , Lip	1	4
        Duffy , Hugh	2	3
        Newcombe, Don	1	3
        Schang, Wally	1	3
        Evers , Johnny	1	1
        Jones , Charley	1	1
        Richardson , H	1	1
        The 1997 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election
        Contributor………	votes	pts
        Harris, Vic	6	19
        Caylor , O. P.	4	17
        Scully, Vin	6	14
        Evans, Billy	4	12
        Abe, Iso	4	8
        Ferguson, Bob	3	8
        Elias, Al Munro	2	7
        Williams, Dick	4	7
        Chandler, Happy	1	5
        Jobe, Frank	1	5
        Caray, Harry	1	4
        Martin, Billy	1	4
        Pesky , Johnny	1	4
        Smith, Red	1	4
        McCarthy, Tommy	1	2
        Harvey, Doug	1	1
        O'Doul, Lefty	1	1
        I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.
        Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
        Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
        A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


        • #5
          Members of the Best of Baseball Hall. Last election's inductees are in red.

          Hank Aaron
          Pete Alexander
          Dick Allen
          Cap Anson
          Luke Appling
          Richie Ashburn
          Earl Averill
          Frank Baker
          Ernie Banks
          Ross Barnes
          John Beckwith
          Cool Papa Bell
          Johnny Bench
          Charlie Bennett
          Yogi Berra
          Akira Bessho
          Bert Blyleven
          Lou Boudreau
          Ken Boyer
          Roger Bresnahan
          Dan Brouthers
          Mordecai Brown
          Ray Brown
          Willard Brown
          Jim Bunning
          Jesse Burkett
          Roy Campanella
          Rod Carew
          Max Carey
          Steve Carlton
          Bob Caruthers
          Oscar Charleston
          Fred Clarke
          John Clarkson
          Roberto Clemente
          Ty Cobb
          Mickey Cochrane
          Eddie Collins
          Jimmy Collins
          Roger Connor
          Stan Coveleski
          Sam Crawford
          Joe Cronin
          Bill Dahlen
          George Davis
          Dizzy Dean
          Ed Delahanty
          Bill Dickey
          Martin Dihigo
          Joe DiMaggio
          Larry Doby
          Bobby Doerr
          Don Drysdale
          Buck Ewing
          Red Faber
          Bob Feller
          Wes Ferrell
          Carlton Fisk
          Elmer Flick
          Whitey Ford
          Willie Foster
          Nellie Fox
          Jimmie Foxx
          Frankie Frisch
          Pud Galvin
          Lou Gehrig
          Charlie Gehringer
          Bob Gibson
          Josh Gibson
          Jack Glasscock
          Joe Gordon
          George Gore
          Goose Goslin
          Goose Gossage
          Frank Grant
          Hank Greenberg
          Bobby Grich
          Heinie Groh
          Lefty Grove
          Stan Hack
          Billy Hamilton
          Isao Harimoto
          Gabby Hartnett
          Harry Heilmann
          Billy Herman
          Pete Hill
          Paul Hines
          Rogers Hornsby
          Carl Hubbell
          Kazuhisa Inao
          Monte Irvin
          Joe Jackson
          Reggie Jackson
          Ferguson Jenkins
          Hughie Jennings
          Grant "Home Run"Johnson
          Walter Johnson
          Al Kaline
          Masaichi Kaneda
          Tim Keefe
          Willie Keeler
          Joe Kelley
          King Kelly
          Harmon Killebrew
          Ralph Kiner
          Sandy Koufax
          Nap LaJoie
          Bob Lemon
          Buck Leonard
          Pop Lloyd
          Ted Lyons
          Biz Mackey
          Sherry Magee
          Mickey Mantle
          Juan Marichal
          Eddie Mathews
          Christy Mathewson
          Willie Mays
          Willie McCovey
          Joe McGinnity
          Bid McPhee
          Joe Medwick
          Jose Mendez
          Minnie Minoso
          Johnny Mize
          Dobie Moore
          Joe Morgan
          Stan Musial
          Shigeo Nagashima
          Hal Newhouser
          Kid Nichols
          Phil Niekro
          Katsuya Nomura
          Sadaharu Oh
          Alejandro Oms
          Jim O'Rourke
          Mel Ott
          Satchel Paige
          Jim Palmer
          Gaylord Perry
          Eddie Plank
          Charlie Radbourn
          Pee Wee Reese
          Robin Roberts
          Brooks Robinson
          Frank Robinson
          Jackie Robinson
          Bullet Joe Rogan
          Pete Rose
          Red Ruffing
          Amos Rusie
          Babe Ruth
          Nolan Ryan
          Ron Santo
          Louis Santop
          Mike Schmidt
          Tom Seaver
          Al Simmons
          Ted Simmons
          George Sisler
          Enos Slaughter
          Hilton Smith
          Duke Snider
          Warren Spahn
          Tris Speaker
          Victor Starffin
          Willie Stargell
          Joe Start
          Turkey Stearnes
          Harry Stovey
          Mule Suttles
          Don Sutton
          Ezra Sutton
          Bill Terry
          Sam Thompson
          Luis Tiant
          Joe Torre
          Cristobal Torriente
          Pie Traynor
          Dazzy Vance
          Arky Vaughan
          Rube Waddell
          Honus Wagner
          Bobby Wallace
          Ed Walsh
          Paul Waner
          John M. Ward
          Willie Wells
          Zack Wheat
          Deacon White
          Hoyt Wilhelm
          Billy Williams
          Smoky Joe Williams
          Ted Williams
          Jud Wilson
          Dave Winfield
          George Wright
          Early Wynn
          Jimmy Wynn
          Carl Yastrzemski
          Cy Young
          Doc Adams
          Mel Allen
          Walter Alston
          Red Barber
          Ed Barrow
          Buzzue Bavasi
          Ed Bolden
          Alexander Cartwright
          Henry Chadwick
          Frank Chance
          Charlie Commiskey
          Charles Conlon
          Tom Connolly
          Jim Creighton
          Jack Dunn
          Leo Durocher
          Rube Foster
          Ford Frick
          Gus Greenlee
          Clark Griffith
          Ned Hanlon
          Whitey Herzog
          William Hulbert
          Miller Huggins
          Ban Johnson
          Tetsuharu Kawakami
          Bill Klem
          Kenesaw Landis
          Tommy Lasorda
          Al Lopez
          Connie Mack
          Larry MacPhail
          Joe McCarthy
          John McGraw
          Bill McKechnie
          Marvin Miller
          Walter O'Malley
          Buck O'Neill
          Dickey Pearce
          Cum Posey
          A. J. Reach
          Francis Richter
          Branch Rickey
          Phil Rizzuto
          Jacob Ruppert
          Frank Selee
          Ben Shibe
          Matsutaro Shoriki
          Billy Southworth
          Al Spalding
          Alfred Spink
          J. G. T. Spink
          Casey Stengel
          C. I. Taylor
          Kazuto Tsuruoka
          Bill Veeck
          Earl Weaver
          George Weiss
          Sol White
          J. L. Wilkinson
          Harry Wright
          Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
          Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
          A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


          • #6
            The complete list of eligible players:
            Adams , Babe
            Adams , Bobby
            Adams , Sparky
            Allen , Johnny
            Alou , Jesus
            Alou , Matty
            Alou, Felipe
            Altrock , Nick
            Aparicio, Luis
            Archer , Jimmy
            Arlett , Buzz
            Austin , Jimmy
            Avila, Bobby
            Bailey , Bob 
            Baker , Dusty
            Bancroft , Dave
            Bando , Sal
            Barry , Jack
            Bartell , Dick
            Battin , Joe
            Bauer , Hank
            Baylor , Don
            Beaumont , Ginger
            Beckert, Glenn
            Beckley , Jake
            Belanger , Mark
            Bell , Buddy
            Bender , Chief
            Benton , Larry
            Berg , Moe
            Bergen , Marty
            Berger , Wally
            Berry , Charlie
            Bibby , Jim 
            Bigbee , Carson
            Billingham , Jack
            Bishop , Max
            Blackwell , Ewell
            Blades , Ray
            Blair , Paul
            Blass , Steve
            Blue , Lu
            Blue , Vida
            Bluege , Ossie
            Blyleven , Bert
            Bodie , Ping
            Boley , Joe
            Bond , Tommy
            Bonds , Bobby
            Boone, Bob
            Bottomley , Jim
            Bowa , Larry
            Boyer , Clete
            Bradley , Bill
            Brecheen , Harry
            Breitenstein , Ted
            Brett , George
            Brewer , Jim 
            Bridges , Tommy
            Brock, Lou
            Browning , Pete
            Bruton, Bill
            Buckner , Bill
            Burdette , Lew
            Burgess , Smoky  
            Burns , George J.
            Burroughs , Jeff
            Bush  , Joe
            Bush , Donie
            Bush , Guy
            Cadore , Leon
            Camilli , Dolph
            Camnitz , Howie
            Campaneris , Bert
            Campbell , Bill
            Candelaria , John
            Cardenal , Jose
            Cardenas , Leo 
            Carrasquel. Chico 
            Carrigan , Bill
            Carroll, Clay
            Case , George
            Cash , Dave
            Cash, Norm
            Cavaretta , Phil
            Cedeno , Cesar
            Cepeda , Orlando
            Cepeda , Perucho
            Cey , Ron
            Chandler , Spud
            Chapman , Ben
            Chapman , Ray
            Chapman , Sam
            Chase , Hal
            Chesbro , Jack
            Childs , Cupid
            Cicotte , Eddie
            Cissell , Bill
            Clark , Watty
            Clarkson , Bus
            Clift, Harlond
            Coakley , Andy
            Colavito, Rocky
            Collins , Shano
            Combs , Earle
            Concepcion , Dave
            Conroy , Wid
            Coombs , Jack
            Cooper , Andy
            Cooper , Mort
            Cooper , Walker
            Cooper , Wilbur
            Courtney , Clint
            Cox , Billy
            Crandall , Doc
            Crandall, Del
            Cravath , Gavvy
            Criger , Lou
            Critz , Hughie
            Cross , Lave
            Crowder , Al 
            Cruise , Walt
            Cruz , Jose
            Cuccinello , Tony
            Cummings , Candy
            Cuyler , Kiki
            Dandridge , Ray
            Danning , Harry
            Dark , Alvin
            Daubert , Jake
            Davis , Curt
            Davis , Harry
            Davis , Spud
            Day , Leon
            DeCinces, Doug
            Dempsey , Rick
            Dent , Bucky
            Derringer , Paul
            DiMaggio , Dom
            Dinneen , Bill
            Doak , Bill
            Donaldson, John
            Donlin , Mike
            Donovan , Bill
            Dooin , Red
            Downing, Bryan
            Doyle , Jack 
            Doyle , Larry
            Dropo , Walt
            Duffy , Hugh
            Dugan , Joe
            Dunlap , Fred
            Dykes , Jimmy
            Earnshaw , George
            Easter, Luke
            Edwards , Hank
            Ehmke , Howard
            Elberfeld , Kid
            Elliott , Bob
            Elliott , Jumbo
            Ellis , Dock
            Enatsu , Yutaka
            Ennis, Del
            Ens , Jewel
            Erskine , Carl
            Evans , Darrell
            Evans , Dwight
            Evers , Johnny
            Face, Roy
            Fairly , Ron
            Falkenberg , Cy
            Ferrell , Rick
            Fingers , Rollie
            Fitzsimmons , Freddie
            Flanagan , Mike
            Fletcher , Art
            Flood , Curt
            Fonseca , Lew
            Forsch, Bob
            Foster , Eddie
            Foster , George
            Fraser , Chick
            Freehan, Bill
            Fregosi , Jim
            Furillo , Carl
            Galan , Augie
            Garner , Phil
            Garver, Ned
            Garvey , Steve
            Gelbert , Charlie
            Gleason , Kid
            Gomez , Lefty
            Gonzalez , Mike
            Gossage , Goose
            Gowdy , Hank
            Grant , Eddie
            Grantham , George
            Griffey, Sr, Ken
            Grimes , Burleigh
            Grimm , Charlie
            Grissom , Marv
            Groat, Dick
            Gromek , Steve
            Grove , Orval
            Guidry, Ron
            Gustine , Frank
            Haas , Mule
            Haddix, Harvey
            Hafey , Chick
            Hahn , Noodles
            Haines , Jesse
            Hallahan , Bill
            Harder , Mel
            Hargrave , Bubbles
            Hargrove , Mike
            Harrah , Toby
            Harrelson , Bud
            Harris , Bucky
            Harris , Vic
            Hatton , Grady
            Hearn , Jim 
            Hebner , Richie
            Hegan , Jim
            Helms, Tommy
            Hemus , Solly
            Henrich , Tommy
            Herman , Babe
            Hernandez , Keith
            Herzog , Buck 
            Hickman , Jim
            Higgins , Mike
            Hiller , John
            Hinchman , Bill
            Hodges, Gil
            Holmes , Tommy
            Holtzman , Ken
            Hooper , Harry
            Hooton, Burt
            Horton , Willie
            Hough, Charlie
            Houtteman , Art
            Howard , Frank
            Howard, Elston
            Hoy , Dummy
            Hoyt , Waite
            Hrabosky , Al
            Huggins , Miller
            Hunter , Catfish
            Hutchinson , Fred
            Irwin , Charlie
            Jackman , Will
            Jackson , Sonny
            Jensen , Jackie
            John , Tommy
            Johnson , Bob
            Johnson , Davey
            Johnson , Judy
            Jones , Charley
            Jones , Fielder
            Jones , Sam P.
            Jordan , Tim
            Jorgenson , Mike
            Joss , Addie
            Judge , Joe
            Jurges , Billy
            Kaat, Jim
            Kamm , Willie
            Kawakami , Tetsuharu
            Kell , George
            Keller , Charlie
            Keltner , Ken
            Kerr , Dickie
            Kessinger , Don
            Killefer , Bill
            Kilroy , Matt
            Kinder , Ellis
            Kingman , Dave
            Klein , Chuck
            Kling , Johnny
            Kluszewski, Ted
            Knabe , Otto
            Koosman , Jerry
            Koyama, Masaaki
            Kremer , Ray
            Kress , Red
            Kuenn, Harvey
            Kuhel , Joe
            Kuzava , Bob
            Lange , Bill
            Lanier , Hal
            Larkin , Henry
            Larsen, Don
            Latham , Arlie
            Lavagetto , Cookie
            Law, Vern
            Lazzeri , Tony
            Leach , Freddy
            Leach , Tommy
            Lee , Bill
            Lee , Bill (Spaceman)
            Leever , Sam
            Leonard , Dennis
            Leonard , Emil (Dutch)
            Lewis , Duffy
            Lewis, Buddy
            Lindstrom , Freddie
            Lobert , Hans
            Lockman , Whitey
            Lolich, Mickey
            Lollar, Sherm
            Lombardi , Ernie
            Lonborg , Jim
            Long , Herman
            Lopat , Ed
            Lopes , Davey
            Lopez , Al
            Lowe , Bobby
            Lowenstein , John
            Lucas , Red
            Lundy , Dick
            Luque , Dolf
            Luzinski, Greg
            Lyle , Sparky
            Lyons , Denny
            Madlock , Bill
            Maglie , Sal
            Maloney, Jim
            Mancuso , Gus
            Manush , Heinie
            Maranville , Rabbit
            Marberry , Firpo
            Marion , Marty
            Maris, Roger
            Marquard , Rube
            Marshall , Mike G.
            Martin , Morrie
            Martin , Pepper
            Mathews , Bobby
            May , Lee
            Mays , Carl
            Mazeroski , Bill
            McAleer , Jimmy
            McCarthy , Tommy
            McCarver , Tim
            McCormick , Frank
            McCormick , Jim
            McDaniel , Lindy
            McDougald, Gil
            McGowan , Bill
            McGraw , Tug
            McInnis , Stuffy
            McLain , Denny
            McLean , Larry
            McMahon, Don
            McManus , Marty
            McMillan, Roy
            McNally , Dave
            McVey , Cal
            Meadows , Lee
            Messersmith , Andy
            Meusel , Bob
            Miksis , Eddie
            Milan , Clyde
            Millan , Felix
            Miller , Bing
            Miller , Dots
            Miller , Hack
            Monday , Rick
            Money , Don
            Monroe , Bill
            Moon, Wally
            Moore , Jo-Jo
            Moore , Terry
            Moran , Pat
            Mostil , Johnny
            Mota, Manny
            Mulcahy , Hugh
            Mullane , Tony
            Mungo , Van
            Munson , Thurman
            Murcer , Bobby
            Murphy , Danny
            Murray , Red
            Myer , Buddy
            Nehf , Art
            Nettles , Graig
            Newcombe , Don
            Newsom , Bobo
            Nicholson , Bill
            Niekro , Joe
            Northey , Ron
            O'Doul , Lefty
            Oeschger , Joe
            O'Farrell , Bob
            O'Leary , Charlie
            Oliva, Tony
            Oliver , Al
            O'Neill , Steve
            O'Neill , Tip
            Orr , Dave
            Pabor , Charlie
            Pafko , Andy
            Parker , Dave
            Parrish , Larry
            Pascual, Camilo
            Paskert , Dode
            Pearson , Monte
            Peckinpaugh , Roger
            Peitz , Heinie
            Pennock , Herb
            Perdue , Hub
            Perez , Tony
            Perkins , Cy
            Perranoski , Ron
            Perry , Jim
            Pesky , Johnny
            Petrocelli, Rico
            Phillippe , Deacon 
            Pierce , Billy
            Pike , Lip
            Piniella, Lou
            Pinson, Vada
            Pipp , Wally
            Podres, Johnny
            Poles , Spotswood
            Porterfield , Bob
            Powell , Boog
            Power , Vic
            Pruett , Hub
            Quinn , Jack
            Quisenberry , Dan
            Raschi , Vic
            Raymond , Bugs
            Redding , Dick
            Reiser , Pete
            Remsen , Jack
            Reuschel , Rick
            Reynolds , Allie
            Rice , Del
            Rice , Jim 
            Rice , Sam
            Richard, J R
            Richardson , Bobby
            Richardson , Hardy
            Ring , Jimmy
            Ritchey , Claude
            Rivers , Mickey
            Rixey , Eppa
            Robertson , Dave
            Roe , Preacher
            Rolfe , Red
            Rommel , Eddie
            Root , Charlie
            Rosen, Al
            Roush , Edd 
            Rucker , Nap
            Rudolph , Dick
            Ruel , Muddy
            Russell , Bill
            Ryan  , Jimmy
            Sain , Johnny
            Sanguillen , Manny
            Sauer , Hank
            Schacht , Al
            Schaefer , Germany
            Schalk , Ray
            Schang , Wally
            Schoendienst , Red
            Schreckengost , Ossie
            Schulte , Frank
            Scott , Everett
            Scott , George
            Scott , Jack
            Selkirk , George
            Severeid , Hank
            Sewell , Joe
            Sewell , Luke
            Sewell , Rip
            Seymour , Cy
            Shantz, Bobby
            Sheckard , Jimmy
            Sherdel , Bill
            Shocker , Urban
            Short , Chris
            Siebert , Sonny
            Sievers , Roy
            Simmons, Curt
            Singleton , Ken
            Sisti , Sibby
            Smith , Earl
            Smith , Reggie
            Smith , Sherry
            Sparks , Tully
            Speier, Chris
            Stahl , Jake
            Stanky , Eddie
            Stanley , Mickey
            Staub , Rusty
            Steinfeldt , Harry
            Stephens , Vern
            Stephenson , Riggs
            Stottlemyre , Mel
            Street , Gabby
            Suhr , Gus
            Sukeforth , Clyde
            Sundberg , Jim
            Sutter , Bruce
            Sweeney , Bill
            Tannehill , Jesse
            Taylor , Ben
            Tebbetts , Birdie
            Tekulve, Kent
            Tenace , Gene
            Tenney , Fred
            Thevenow , Tommy
            Thomas , Ira
            Thomson , Bobby
            Thornton , Andre
            Tiernan , Mike
            Tinker , Joe
            Tobin , Jim
            Toney , Fred
            Torgeson, Earl
            Torrez , Mike
            Travis, Cecil
            Trouppe , Quincy
            Trout , Dizzy
            Trucks , Virgil
            Turner , Terry
            Uhle , George
            Valo , Elmer
            Van Haltren , George
            Vander Meer , Johnny
            Veach , Bobby
            Vernon , Mickey
            Walberg , Rube
            Walker , Harry
            Walters , Bucky
            Wambsganss , Bill
            Waner , Lloyd
            Warfield , Frank
            Warneke , Lon
            Watson , Bob 
            Welch , Mickey
            Werber , Billy
            Wertz, Vic
            West , Sam
            Westrum , Wes
            White , Sol
            White , Will 
            White, Frank
            Whitehill , Earl
            Williams , Cy
            Williams , Ken
            Williamson , Ned
            Willis , Vic
            Wills, Maury
            Wilson , Hack
            Wilson , Jim
            Wilson , Jimmie
            Winfield , Dave
            Witt , Whitey
            Wood , Joe
            Wood , Wilbur
            Wright , Glenn
            Wyatt , Whit 
            Yamamoto , Koji
            Yeager , Steve
            Yerkes , Steve
            York , Rudy
            Young , Pep
            Youngs , Ross
            Zachary , Tom
            Zimmer , Chief
            The complete list of eligible contributors:
            Abe , Iso
            Ashford, Emmet
            Autry, Gene
            Bancroft , Frank
            Barlick, Al
            Berger , Sy
            Brickhouse , Jack
            Buck , Jack 
            Bulkely , Morgan
            Busch , Augie
            Cambria , Joe
            Campbell , Jim
            Canel, Buck
            Caray, Harry
            Carrigan, Bill
            Caylor , O. P.
            Chandler, Happy
            Chylak , Nestor
            Conlan , Jocko
            Cooper , Andy
            Cummings , Candy
            Dark , Alvin
            Davids , Bob 
            Dinneen , Bill
            Doubleday , Abner
            Dreyfuss , Barney
            Dyer , Eddie
            Dykes , Jimmy
            Elias , Al Munro
            Evans, Billy
            Feller, Sherm
            Fergsuon, Bob
            Fetzer, John
            Foster , John B.
            Fowler, Bud
            Fullerton , Hugh
            Giles , Warren
            Gleason , Kid
            Gonzalez , Mike
            Gowdy , Curt
            Grimm, Charlie
            Haak , Howie
            Haney , Fred
            Harridge, Willie
            Harris , Bucky
            Harris, Vic
            Harvey, Doug
            Harwell, Ernie
            Hemond , Roland
            Herzog, Whitey
            Heydler, John
            Hillerich , John
            Hodges, Gil
            Hodges, Russ
            Houk , Ralph
            Howsam, Bob
            Hubbard , Cal
            Hutchinson , Fred
            Jobe , Frank
            Krichell, Paul
            Kuenn , Harvey
            Kuhn , Bowie
            Lanigan, Ernest
            Lardner , Ring
            Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W.
            Luque , Dolf
            MacPhail, Lee
            Manley , Effa
            Martin  , Billy
            Mauch , Gene
            McCarthy , Tommy
            McGowan, Bill
            Mills , A. G.
            Mizuhara, Shigeru
            Moran , Pat
            Murnane, Tim
            Murtaugh, Danny
            Mutrie , Jim
            Navin , Frank
            Nelson , Lindsey
            Norworth, Jack
            O'Day, Hank
            O'Doul, Lefty
            O'Neill, Steve
            Osborn , Frank
            Pasquel, Jorge
            Patkin, Max
            Pesky , Johnny
            Pompez , Alex 
            Pulliam, Harry
            Ramirez, Felo
            Reese , Jimmie
            Rice, Grantland
            Richards, Paul
            Ritter , Lawrence
            Robinson , Wilbert
            Schoendienst, Red
            Scully, Vin
            Sewell , Luke
            Sheppard, Bob
            Smith, Red
            Stallings , George
            Steinbrenner, George
            Street, Gabby
            Tanner , Chuck
            Thayer , Ernest
            Tyson, Ty
            van der Ahe, Chris
            Virdon, Bill
            Warfield , Frank
            Weyer , Lee
            Williams , Dick
            Wilson , Horace
            Wrigley, Phil
            Yawkey, Tom
            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


            • #7
              My ballot
              1. George Brett
              2. Charlie Keller
              3. Perucho Cepeda
              4. Cupid Childs
              5. Sal Bando
              6. Quincy Trouppe
              7. Masaaki Koyama
              8. Rick Reuschel
              9. Bill Freehan
              10. Hugh Duffy
              11. Reggie Smith
              12. Keith Hernandez

              1. Vic Harris
              2. Iso Abe
              3. Dick Williams
              4. Vin Scully
              5. Bob Ferguson

              George Brett goes right to the top of my player list. Reggie Smith and Keith Hernandez fill in the bottom two rungs of my dozen players. As for the contributors, Bob Ferguson joins the list, leaving Al Munro Elias (probably next from the holdover contributors), Steinbrenner and Murnane in my contributor queue.
              Last edited by jalbright; 05-08-2011, 11:21 AM.
              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


              • #8

                1. George Brett
                2. Reggie Smith
                3. Jimmy Sheckard
                4. Sal Bando
                5. Cal McVey
                6. Rick Reuschel
                7. Perucho Cepeda
                8. Keith Hernandez
                9. Rabbit Maranville
                10. Urban Shocker
                11. Wally Schang
                12. Hugh Duffy


                1. Bob Ferguson
                2. O.P. Caylor
                3. Al Munro Elias
                4. Iso Abe
                5. Vin Scully

                Harry Caray, Happy Chandler, Jocko Conlan, Candy Cummings, Bill Dinneen, Bud Fowler, Vic Harris, Gil Hodges, Ring Lardner, Billy Martin, Shigeru Mizuhara, Tim Murnane, Lefty O'Doul, Red Schoendienst, George Steinbrenner, Dick Williams all being strongly considered at this point on the contributor side.

                My queued up players are Charley Jones, Quincy Trouppe, Bill Freehan, Edd Roush, Lou Brock, Hardy Richardson.

                I'm unlikely to add a new pitcher anytime soon, unless a strong newcomer emerges as the carryovers go Jack Quinn, Burleigh Grimes, Bruce Sutter, Dan Quisenberry, Eppa Rixey, Don Newcombe, Ron Guidry, Catfish Hunter, Harry Brecheen, Chief Bender.

                In my consideration set on the players side are Luis Aparicio, Dave Bancroft, Jake Beckley, Chief Bender, Wally Berger, Max Bishop, Bobby Bonds, Bob Boone, Harry Brecheen, Pete Browning, Lou Brock, Cesar Cedeno, Orlando Cepeda, Cupid Childs, Dave Concepcion, Lave Cross, Leon Day, Dwight Evans, Bill Freehan, Steve Garvey, Burleigh Grimes, Ron Guidry, Dummy Hoy, Catfish Hunter, Fielder Jones, Joe Kelley, Tommy Leach, Thurman Munson, Graig Nettles, Don Newcombe, Tony Perez, Lip Pike, Spotswood Poles, Jack Quinn, Dan Quisenberry, Sam Rice, Hardy Richardson, Eppa Rixey, Edd Roush, Joe Sewell, Rusty Staub, Bruce Sutter, Quincy Trouppe, George Van Haltren. Some may make my ballot, some may not depending on who we are looking at in terms of newcomers.


                • #9
                  Top returnees by 1997 voting along with intriguing candidate Keith Hernandez - analysis using Sean Smith's WAR and Bill James's WSAB.

                  1.00 3.00 5.00 7.00 10.0 13.0 15.0 Tot First Last
                  8.00 18.1 27.1 34.6 39.4 39.4 39.4 39.4 Addie Joss
                  6.70 18.6 28.0 35.5 43.5 49.4 50.9 50.9 Edd Roush
                  7.40 20.6 32.8 44.2 52.7 54.2 54.2 54.2 Charlie Keller
                  5.10 15.3 23.4 29.1 35.4 40.3 41.8 41.8 Lou Brock
                  10.2 21.5 31.0 39.8 49.6 58.3 62.3 65.2 Dwight Evans
                  6.00 16.0 24.0 31.6 40.8 47.8 51.6 56.1 Eppa Rixey
                  7.00 20.2 29.8 36.7 44.4 48.5 48.7 48.7 Burleigh Grimes
                  5.60 15.7 23.6 30.8 39.4 46.3 49.6 50.7 Luis Aparicio
                  6.10 16.8 26.5 35.2 47.6 58.0 63.4 68.6 Jake Beckley
                  7.90 21.2 29.6 36.4 45.3 52.1 54.4 54.9 Jimmy Sheckard
                  7.20 17.6 26.8 34.8 41.0 41.2 41.2 41.2 Wally Berger
                  8.80 24.0 35.3 43.5 50.0 54.8 55.3 55.3 Bill Freehan
                  9.00 20.7 29.2 36.7 46.9 54.7 57.7 60.1 Darrell Evans
                  8.80 20.0 30.6 40.9 52.3 61.5 65.7 67.9 Rick Reuschel
                  6.30 17.9 28.2 37.6 50.5 59.3 63.7 65.2 Reggie Smith
                  8.90 22.5 34.5 45.5 57.2 61.3 61.4 61.4 Sal Bando
                  8.30 22.6 34.4 43.3 50.6 51.6 51.6 51.6 Cupid Childs
                  7.60 20.2 30.9 40.4 52.1 57.7 57.7 57.7 Urban Shocker
                  7.20 20.6 32.8 43.3 55.9 63.6 63.9 63.9 Keith Hernandez

                  21.0 53.3 77.00 95.60 107.8 107.8 107.8 107.8 Addie Joss
                  22.0 60.6 91.60 112.7 140.8 157.7 162.6 162.6 Edd Roush
                  23.2 67.3 105.4 137.7 160.0 165.4 165.4 165.4 Charlie Keller
                  18.1 52.7 76.40 96.60 123.8 141.5 147.0 147.0 Lou Brock
                  25.7 60.3 85.00 105.0 128.5 146.5 155.5 166.0 Dwight Evans
                  16.3 45.7 70.00 93.20 121.1 140.3 151.8 166.5 Eppa Rixey
                  20.5 56.5 87.30 105.4 129.6 144.9 145.6 145.6 Burleigh Grimes
                  7.50 19.5 29.00 37.20 46.10 50.10 51.20 51.20 Luis Aparicio
                  12.9 36.1 57.80 77.10 103.8 127.1 141.1 155.3 Jake Beckley
                  23.1 63.9 92.00 115.7 146.8 169.7 174.9 173.7 Jimmy Sheckard
                  24.8 61.8 88.30 107.1 127.8 128.2 128.2 128.2 Wally Berger
                  22.4 59.2 89.10 109.3 125.1 131.7 133.4 133.4 Bill Freehan
                  17.2 47.8 73.90 96.30 124.5 148.8 156.7 165.4 Darrell Evans
                  17.5 41.0 61.60 80.00 102.3 121.2 125.2 126.4 Rick Reuschel
                  18.4 49.0 77.40 103.6 137.0 162.6 172.3 172.3 Reggie Smith
                  20.6 52.8 75.20 95.40 117.9 122.8 122.8 122.8 Sal Bando
                  20.0 55.6 80.80 100.9 113.9 114.2 114.2 114.2 Cupid Childs
                  17.3 46.6 75.10 96.10 123.7 131.1 131.1 131.1 Urban Shocker
                  21.0 57.5 90.90 118.4 149.8 167.2 167.9 167.9 Keith Hernandez

                  General interpretation of WAR values:
                  Tier 1 - Reuschel, Bando, Hernandez, Dwight Evans
                  Tier 2 - Keller (who could move at or near the top with MLE credit for his outstanding minor league performance/block by Yankees - larger bump in WWII credit)
                  Tier 2 - Smith, Beckley, Freehan - ~30% catching bonus, Shocker.
                  Tier 3 - Darrell Evans, Childs, Sheckard
                  Tier 4 - Roush, Grimes
                  Tier 5 - Rixey, Aparicio, Berger, Joss
                  Tier 6 - Brock

                  If you are a Peak fan, you can nudge Freehan, Bando, Childs, Dwight Evans, Hernandez, and Keller to the front of the pack.
                  If you are a prime fan, you can nudge Hernandez, Bando, Freehan, Childs, Keller, Reuschel, and Shocker to the front of the pack.
                  If you are a pure career guy, Beckley, Reuschel, Dwight Evans, Smith, and Hernandez standout.

                  General interpretation of WSAB values:
                  By WSAB: Overall
                  Win Shares looks quite favorably on OF.
                  Tier 1 - Keller, Sheckard
                  Tier 2 - Hernandez, Roush, Smith, Dwight Evans
                  Tier 3 - Grimes, Darrell Evans, Freehan
                  Tier 4 - Berger, Brock, Rixey
                  Tier 5 - Shocker, Bando, Childs
                  Tier 6 - Beckley, Joss, Reuschel
                  Tier 7 - Aparicio

                  If you are a peak fan, you'll have interest in Keller, Sheckard, Berger, Roush, Dwight Evans, and Freehan.
                  If you are a prime fan, look at Hernandez, Keller, Sheckard, Roush, Berger, Freehan, and Dwight Evans.
                  If you are a career fan, interest in Sheckard, Smith, Hernandez, Keller, Roush, and the Evans boys makes sense.

                  BOTH SYSTEMS AGREE: Keller, Hernandez, Dwight Evans, and Reggie Smith are strong candidates.
                  Last edited by Jar of Flies; 05-07-2011, 04:31 PM.
                  Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)


                  • #10
                    Additional thoughts/interpretations of the WAR/WSAB figures:
                    While Sal Bando looks sweet as roses, Dan Rosenheck at the Hall of Merit has an analysis caution his take on value:

                    37. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: November 24, 2009 at 09:07 PM (#3396192)
                    I'm going to take this opportunity to compare and contrast three players that my system and CHONE's strongly disagree on: Sal Bando, Willie Davis, and Dagoberto Campaneris. I hope a close analysis will help illuminate the differences between CHONE's methodology and mine (although it is worth emphasizing that a cursory comparison of our rankings shows that the systems are extremely similar). I have converted his numbers to a comparable format to mine--raw hitting, GIDP, and ROE are subsumed under batting; TZ, ifDP, OFarm, and Catch are subsumed under fielding, the subcategories are converted from runs to wins, and seasons are straight-line adjusted to 162 games. I have also adjusted my BWAA and Replc to use the pitchers-removed average as league average for non-DH years, to mirror CHONE's accounting.


                    SFrac: Percentage of the league average plate appearances per lineup slot for that season, a measure of playing time (greater than 1 for leadoff men, etc.)
                    RBWAA: Rosenheck batting wins above average.
                    RBRWAA: Rosenheck baserunning wins above average.
                    RFWAA: Rosenheck fielding wins above average.
                    RRepl: Wins above average a replacement player would have accumulated in the same playing time, according to Rosenheck.
                    RWARP1: Rosenheck total wins above replacement, unadjusted for standard deviations.
                    LgAdj: Ratio of the 2005 standard deviation to the regression-projected standard deviation of the league-season in question.
                    RWARP2: Rosenheck total wins above replacement, adjusted for standard deviations.
                    SBWAA: Smith batting wins above average.
                    SBRWAA: Smith baserunning wins above average.
                    SFWAA: Smith fielding wins above average
                    SRepl: Wins above average a replacement player would have accumulated in the same playing time, according to Smith.
                    SWARP1: Smith total wins above replacement, unadjusted for standard deviations.
                    TXBR: Totals, excluding sub-replacement seasons.

                    Sal Bando

                    1967 0.22 -0.5 0.1 0.1 -0.4 0.0 0.985 0.0 | -0.2 0.0 0.7 -0.5 1.0
                    1968 1.01 0.7 0.2 0.6 -1.8 3.4 1.003 3.4 | 0.7 0.1 -0.1 -2.5 3.2
                    1969 1.08 5.2 -0.2 -0.6 -1.8 6.3 0.948 6.0 | 6.1 0.1 0.2 -2.5 8.9
                    1970 0.93 3.3 -0.4 -0.4 -1.7 4.3 0.949 4.1 | 3.0 0.1 0.4 -2.6 6.2
                    1971 0.95 3.2 -0.3 -0.5 -1.8 4.2 0.962 4.0 | 3.0 -0.1 0.7 -2.7 6.3
                    1972 0.99 1.6 0.2 0.9 -2.0 4.8 0.970 4.7 | 1.1 0.2 1.1 -2.7 5.1
                    1973 1.00 4.5 0.0 -1.7 -2.1 4.9 0.947 4.6 | 5.2 0.1 -0.7 -2.8 7.3
                    1974 0.89 2.7 0.4 -1.4 -1.8 3.5 0.963 3.4 | 3.2 0.1 -0.4 -2.4 5.3
                    1975 0.97 0.3 0.2 0.4 -2.0 2.9 0.943 2.7 | 0.3 0.2 0.5 -2.6 3.6
                    1976 0.94 2.4 0.2 0.3 -2.1 5.0 0.948 4.7 | 2.7 0.1 0.2 -2.7 5.7
                    1977 0.97 0.3 0.1 -0.1 -2.2 2.6 0.907 2.4 | -0.3 0.4 0.7 -2.2 3.0
                    1978 0.93 2.7 0.1 0.7 -2.2 5.7 0.919 5.2 | 2.4 0.1 0.9 -2.3 5.8
                    1979 0.79 -1.3 0.1 -0.5 -1.8 0.1 0.913 0.1 | -1.4 0.0 -0.3 -1.8 0.1
                    1980 0.42 -1.4 -0.1 -0.3 -1.0 -0.8 0.929 -0.7 | -1.2 -0.1 -0.3 -0.8 -0.8
                    1981 0.16 -0.3 0.0 -0.3 -0.3 -0.3 0.950 -0.3 | 0.0 -0.2 0.0 -0.2 0.0
                    TOTL 12.25 23.4 0.6 -2.8 -25.0 46.6 0.951 44.3 | 24.7 1.2 3.7 -31.1 60.7
                    TXBR 11.67 25.1 0.7 -2.2 -23.7 47.7 0.950 45.3 | 25.9 1.3 4.0 -30.3 61.5
                    AVRG 1.00 1.9 0.0 -0.2 -2.0 3.8 0.951 3.6 | 2.0 0.1 0.3 -2.5 5.0

                    Sean and I clearly see Bando's offense the same way. We have a significant but not enormous disagreement on his fielding---Sean sees him as a slightly above average fielder, me as a slightly below one. (I'm really not sure what to make of this, since SFR thinks Bando was a brilliant 3B and DRA a meaningfully below average one; the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle). And we have a yawning gap on the intrinsic value of playing third base. I see 3B during Bando's prime as a dead mid-spectrum position, no different than it is today, while Sean has it as glove position, not far from where he puts modern SS. (Note that my view and Sean's converge starting in around 1977).
                    He goes on to explain why he supports Bert Campaneris for his ballot instead, who I have as a bubble candidate, but whom I don't expect anyone else to vote for:

                    Dagoberto Campaneris

                    1964 0.42 -0.6 0.2 -0.5 -1.7 0.9 0.983 0.9 | -0.4 0.0 -0.7 -0.9 -0.2
                    1965 0.94 0.5 0.3 -1.4 -3.7 3.2 0.977 3.1 | -0.3 0.2 -1.2 -1.8 0.5
                    1966 0.91 -0.3 0.9 -0.6 -3.7 3.7 0.999 3.7 | 0.4 1.0 -0.5 -2.7 3.5
                    1967 0.97 -0.9 0.7 -0.8 -4.1 3.2 0.985 3.2 | -0.5 0.3 -0.8 -2.6 1.6
                    1968 1.06 1.9 0.6 0.7 -4.5 7.6 1.003 7.6 | 1.5 0.3 1.0 -3.1 5.9
                    1969 0.86 -1.9 1.2 0.1 -4.0 3.3 0.948 3.1 | -1.3 1.0 1.1 -2.3 3.1
                    1970 0.95 1.4 0.6 1.0 -4.5 7.4 0.949 7.0 | 1.3 0.3 1.0 -3.0 5.6
                    1971 0.91 -1.7 0.7 0.3 -4.2 3.4 0.962 3.3 | -1.5 0.8 1.0 -2.6 2.9
                    1972 1.05 -1.7 1.1 1.7 -4.6 5.8 0.970 5.6 | -1.1 0.7 1.5 -3.1 4.2
                    1973 0.97 -1.4 0.4 1.8 -4.4 5.3 0.947 5.0 | -1.0 0.3 2.0 -2.9 4.2
                    1974 0.85 1.1 0.4 0.7 -3.9 6.1 0.963 5.9 | 1.6 0.4 0.7 -2.7 5.4
                    1975 0.84 -0.3 0.2 -0.2 -3.8 3.5 0.943 3.3 | -0.1 0.0 0.1 -2.6 2.6
                    1976 0.91 0.0 0.5 0.4 -4.0 5.0 0.948 4.7 | -0.1 0.3 0.9 -3.0 4.1
                    1977 0.89 -1.2 0.0 1.7 -4.1 4.6 0.907 4.2 | -1.1 -0.3 1.7 -3.0 3.3
                    1978 0.44 -2.4 0.3 -0.2 -2.0 -0.3 0.919 -0.3 | -2.5 0.2 0.0 -1.5 -0.8
                    1979 0.40 -1.6 -0.1 0.4 -1.8 0.5 0.913 0.5 | -1.1 0.1 -0.3 -1.3 0.0
                    1980 0.33 -0.6 -0.1 -0.4 -1.5 0.3 0.929 0.3 | -0.7 0.0 -0.5 -1.0 -0.2
                    1981 0.20 0.0 0.0 -0.7 -0.4 -0.2 0.950 -0.2 | -0.3 0.0 -0.3 -0.5 -0.2
                    1983 0.22 0.1 -0.4 -0.2 -0.6 0.1 0.954 0.1 | 0.3 -0.4 -0.3 -0.6 0.2
                    TOTL 14.12 -9.6 7.5 3.8 -61.5 63.4 0.962 61.0 | -6.8 5.1 6.4 -41.0 45.7
                    TXBR 13.48 -7.2 7.2 4.7 -59.1 63.9 0.962 61.5 | -2.9 4.9 7.9 -37.2 47.1
                    AVRG 1.00 -0.7 0.5 0.3 -4.4 4.5 0.962 4.3 | -0.5 0.4 0.5 -2.9 3.2

                    Once more, we have similar takes on overall value above average, with Sean slightly more kind to Campaneris. (It's worth noting here that SFR has Campaneris as an otherworldly +144 shortstop, and DRA also gives him a superb +109. With that kind of defense and baserunning value, Campaneris's case is far stronger than I make it here, where old BP FRAA and Fielding Win Shares thought he was merely good). It's that replacement level column that is night and day: Sean has SS a mere 2.5 runs per year more valuable in the 70's than it is today (which I think he himself recognizes is a fudge, due to the arbitrary +10 cap he places on positional adjustments...right, Sean? Kind of like Bill James's cap on Fielding WS). By contrast, as everyone in the HoM knows, I see 70's SS as the toughest position to fill at any point in MLB history. If you could even provide league-average offense at the position back then, you were an All-Star in my book. I have offered two potential explanations for this phenomenon: the mega-expansion of the 1960's, which hurt SS more than (say) LF/RF due to the intrinsic scarcity of the position, and the advent of turf ballparks.

                    As a reminder, I derive my positional weights by starting with Nate Silver's findings on the aggregate performance of Freely Available Talent (MLB players over age 27 earning less than twice the minimum salary), and adjusting them over time based on the performance of worst 3/8 of everyday players at each position. Sean gets his by studying the fielding of position-switchers over ten-year periods (e.g. 1970-1980).
                    Last edited by Jar of Flies; 05-07-2011, 04:38 PM.
                    Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)


                    • #11
                      More notes on high backlog candidates:

                      Jimmy Sheckard sailed into the Hall of Merit, and was ranked ahead/at the same level of Best of Baseball members among left fielders: Zack Wheat, Joe Kelley, Goose Goslin. He also placed ahead of Minnie Minoso, Joe Medwick, and Ralph Kiner. This assessment likely is concluded due to his excellent defensive value.

                      Darrell Evans was voted as similar/marginally better than John Beckwith and Stan Hack by the Hall of Merit electorate among third basemen.

                      As mentioned in previous ballot threads, I am a believer in the WAR analysis of Rick Reuschel, which is confirmed by Hall of Merit founder Joe Dimino's Pennants Added analysis.

                      Bill Freehan will be debuting near the bottom of my ballot - hopefully I am giving him enough credit for filling the catcher position.

                      Edd Roush is off ballot, as I find him to be overrated due to his success in the weak NL of the 1910s, early 20s.

                      Urban Shocker will be debuting near the end of my ballot - he is impressive by WAR and PA statistics.

                      Childs is another intriguing player worth considering, especially for peak fans.
                      Beckley is the opposite of Childs, he's worth considering particularly for career voters.
                      Grimes looks real good by WSAB, but a fair bit short by WAR.
                      Berger and Brock are borderline by WSAB, but WS is favorable to accumulation of PA (Brock) and CF receiving defensive value (Berger), and are well out by WAR.
                      Rixey looks borderline or out by both systems.
                      Aparicio and Joss miss by both analysis.

                      Players receiving votes who I am a fan of:
                      Perucho Cepeda - based on Jalbright's analysis is a high quality candidate, HOM says to be careful, but that he may be a bit short. - I fall in between.
                      Masaaki Koyama - the translated statistics and comparisons to Best of Baseball hurlers are overwhelmingly impressive for Koyama by Jalbright.
                      Dick Lundy - new evidence that the HOM uncovered in 2008 showed him to be an excellent defender, and a capable contact hitter who took walks.
                      Don Newcombe - a career potentially over the line if you give him peak Korean war credit/blocked from majors/development credit with integration era. What a hitter!
                      Cal McVey - challenging to make a WAR/WSAB analysis for players as far back as him - HOM ranks him a smidge ahead of Freehan, Bresnahan, Trouppe, and Mackey among backstops? I could be convinced he's ballot worthy.
                      Quincy Trouppe - a challenging case to analyze, just off ballot and may deserve to be on.
                      Hardy Richardson - another strong candidate close to ballot - excellent 1880s 2B who might deserve more credit for time in International Association late 1870s.
                      Last edited by Jar of Flies; 05-07-2011, 04:54 PM.
                      Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)


                      • #12
                        1998 ballot:

                        1 George Brett
                        2 Charlie Keller
                        3 Rick Reuschel
                        4 Dwight Evans
                        5 Dick Lundy
                        6 Masaaki Koyama
                        7 Darrell Evans
                        8 Jimmy Sheckard
                        9 Reggie Smith
                        10 Don Newcombe
                        11 Bill Freehan
                        12 Keith Hernandez

                        1 Johnny Pesky
                        2 Vin Scully
                        3 Vic Harris
                        4 Doug Harvey
                        5 Al Munro Elias
                        Last edited by Jar of Flies; 05-08-2011, 03:43 AM. Reason: Hat tip to jjpm74 - Brett was accidentially omitted
                        Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)


                        • #13
                          Jar of Flies--is George Brett's absence from your ballot an oversight? He should be a no brainer at this point.


                          • #14

                            1. George Brett
                            2. Addie Joss
                            3. Lou Brock
                            4. Jake Beckley
                            5. Edd Roush
                            6. Charlie Keller
                            7. Masaaki Koyama
                            8. Tony Mullane
                            9. Jimmy Sheckard
                            10. Keith Hernandez
                            11. Rick Reuschel
                            12. Ray Dandridge


                            1. Happy Chandler
                            2. Harry Caray
                            3. Vin Scully
                            4. Dick Williams
                            5. Bob Ferguson

                            I decided that Keller should have more support. I am really impressed with what he was able to accomplish in the time he played. He deserves to be in. Freehan is next on the list with Dwight Evans after him.
                            Last edited by TheMendozaLine; 05-08-2011, 06:16 PM. Reason: Two #2's!


                            • #15
                              1. George Brett
                              2. Charlie Keller
                              3. Dwight Evans
                              4. Darrell Evans
                              5. Cal McVey
                              6. Leroy Matlock
                              7. Lip Pike
                              8. Jimmy Sheckard
                              9. Keith Hernandez
                              10. Bill Freehan
                              11. Hardy Richardson
                              12. Johnny Pesky