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2002 Best of Baseball election thread

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post
    2002 Ballot:
    jjpm74 - I largely agree with your rankings, or believe your system is quite good, but maybe I am missing the boat on Lou Brock.
    What is it about his profile that makes him ballot worthy to you? He's not close by WAR's analysis, although he's pretty good by straight Win Shares, and he's alright but not overwhelming by Win Shares Above Bench. Thanks for helping me on this 3000 hit club member.
    I don't think you're missing the boat if your not voting for Lou Brock. I'm only luke warm on him myself and added him because he has enough support and is close enough for me to place him here. I have Brock on about equal footing with fellow career guys Sam Rice and Jake Beckley.

    Comment


    • #17
      01. Perucho Cepeda
      02. Lou Whitaker
      03. Masaaki Koyama
      04. Jake Beckley
      05. Burleigh Grimes
      06. Urban Shocker
      07. Wally Berger
      08. Quincy Trouppe
      09. Sal Bando
      10. Luis Aparicio
      11. Billy Pierce
      12. Bill Freehan

      01. Frank Jobe
      02. Lefty O'Doul
      03. Iso Abe
      04. George Steinbrenner
      05. Al Munro Elias

      Comment


      • #18
        1. Andre Dawson
        2. Burleigh Grimes
        3. Luis Aparicio
        4. Lefty Gomez
        5. Eppa Rixey
        6. Jake Beckley
        7. Lou Brock
        8. Masaaki Koyama
        9. Perucho Cepeda
        10. Ray Dandridge
        11. Tony Perez
        12. Jimmy Sheckard


        Contributors

        1. Billy Evans
        2. O.P. Caylor
        3. Bucky Harris
        4. Bob Ferguson
        5. Ernie Harwell
        Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
        Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
        Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
        Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
        Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

        Comment


        • #19
          Players

          1. Lou Whitaker
          2. Eppa Rixey
          3. Joe Sewell
          4. Rollie Fingers
          5. Luis Aparicio
          6. Wally Berger
          7. Bill Freehan
          8. Billy Pierce
          9. Reggie Smith
          10. Graig Nettles
          11. Quincy Trouppe
          12. Dwight Evans


          Another down year gives me room to add two newbies, so say hello to Quincy Trouppe and Dwight Evans. Lee Smith makes the queue and will likely see his name soon. Dave Steib makes the queue but likely won't; he's around names like Eddie Cicotte and Virgil Trucks. Tom Henke falls in between Dan Quisenberry and Kent Tekulve among relievers.

          Contributors

          1. Al Munro Elias
          2. Billy Martin
          3. Billy Evans
          4. Bob Howsam
          5. David Neft

          Bob Howsam finally makes my ballot, and I bumped him above Neft so that he may stay there. There are about ten other names I'm looking at for what will likely be about five spots. There are some names I'd like to vote for that I won't get to.
          http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploa...-showalter.gif

          Comment


          • #20
            We've got a quorum on the player side. However, we're one short on the contributor side, with four candidates within three points of the lead. That means another vote is required.
            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

            Comment


            • #21
              There's one voter from last election yet to vote this time: TheMendozaLine. If he hasn't voted by Monday, I'll PM him.

              Next election has Jim Kaat and Pete Palmer as the new additions to the contributor list. As for the players, they add:

              Boggs , Wade
              Gaetti , Gary
              Henderson , Dave
              Hershiser , Orel
              Hurst , Bruce
              Righetti , Dave
              Trammell , Alan
              Boggs and Trammell are strong candidates.
              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

              Comment


              • #22
                Players:

                1. Lou Brock
                2. Jake Beckley
                3. Masaaki Koyama
                4. Tony Mullane
                5. Jimmy Sheckard
                6. Rick Reuschel
                7. Ray Dandridge
                8. Lou Whitaker
                9. Quincy Trouppe
                10. Bill Freehan
                11. Dwight Evans
                12. Luis Aparicio

                Contributors:

                1. Harry Caray
                2. Bob Ferguson
                3. David Neft
                4. Bob Uecker
                5. Al Munro Elias

                Comment


                • #23
                  Now we have a quorum on both sides of the ballot and everyone who voted last election has voted in this one.
                  Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                  Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                  A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Captain Cold Nose...No Lou Whitaker on your ballot?

                    jjpm74 - Thanks for your response on Brock. Brock has received first place votes from Dogdaze, PVNICK, and TheMendozaLine...since I can't seem to find the reasoning, can you guys give me some insight as to why you find Lou to be the best player available. As I mentioned to jjpm74, maybe I'm missing the boat on Brock?
                    Last edited by Jar of Flies; 07-10-2011, 01:31 PM.
                    Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
                    http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post
                      Captain Cold Nose...No Lou Whitaker on your ballot?

                      jjpm74 - Thanks for your response on Brock. Brock has received first place votes from Dogdaze, PVNICK, and TheMendozaLine...since I can't seem to find the reasoning, can you guys give me some insight as to why you find Lou to be the best player available. As I mentioned to jjpm74, maybe I'm missing the boat on Brock?
                      Not yet. Maybe because I followed him so closely for his entire career I don't see what others seem to.
                      Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                      Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                      Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                      Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                      Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        on Brock the crop available are all the C list players at their positions. Admittedly I first put Brock up on the 3000 hits, SB thing reasoning that such "status" puts him ahead of other similarly classed players, since then I haven't gone and done a re-shufflle.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
                          Not yet. Maybe because I followed him so closely for his entire career I don't see what others seem to.
                          For me, Whitaker is #1 on my ballot but only because a) the incumbents are near the grey area and b) there are no stronger candidates available this year. He was a 2B who had a fairly long career, logged in a 116 OPS+ with a good balance between on-base and power, and as far as I know had a better-than-advertized glove. He was a member of one of the most famous double-play duos in recent history. This kind of stuff puts him at least in Billy Herman territory.
                          http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploa...-showalter.gif

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            With the list being where it is and the vast majority of the elite players already in, the "C" list players are making headway. Brock's 3000 hits and SB's as well as an almost .300 average and close to 500 doubles has him in it for me. His WAR is pretty awful for a HOF'er, admittedly, but I think he deserves to be in. I imagine he was a lot of fun to watch when he was stealing all those bases.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              PV NICK from post 26
                              on Brock the crop available are all the C list players at their positions. Admittedly I first put Brock up on the 3000 hits, SB thing reasoning that such "status" puts him ahead of other similarly classed players, since then I haven't gone and done a re-shufflle.
                              TheMendozaLine from post 28
                              With the list being where it is and the vast majority of the elite players already in, the "C" list players are making headway. Brock's 3000 hits and SB's as well as an almost .300 average and close to 500 doubles has him in it for me. His WAR is pretty awful for a HOF'er, admittedly, but I think he deserves to be in. I imagine he was a lot of fun to watch when he was stealing all those bases.
                              The arguments for all-time hits and stolen bases make sense, but he's not a dominant force on doubles
                              2B's eligible leaders:
                              Al Oliver - 529
                              Dave Parker - 526
                              Tony Perez - 505
                              Andre Dawson - 503
                              Rusty Staub - 499
                              Bill Buckner - 498
                              Sam Rice - 498...
                              Lou Brock - 486

                              If I were to use a stat compiling stat to measure a players worth, I would locate times on base before hits.

                              Eligible leaders in times on base (PA/wOBA - weight on base %): NOTE, if the schedule was at 154 or 162 games, Jake Beckley may lead or be near the top of TOB list...I am considering him for a ballot placement in 2003:

                              Rusty Staub 4050 (11229/362)
                              Dwight Evans 3890 (10569/374)
                              Darrell Evans 3863 (10737/354)
                              Lou Brock 3833 (11235/346)
                              Sam Rice 3751 (10246/374)
                              Jake Beckley 3733 (10504/371)

                              Another intriguing stat are outs made:
                              Luis Aparicio 8110 (11230/302!)
                              Lou Brock 7823 (11235/346)
                              Andre Dawson 7621 (10769/352)
                              Rusty Staub 7509 (11229/362)
                              Tony Perez 7462 (10861/356)

                              And one more counting stat: Runs Created
                              Dwight Evans 1612 (10569/374)
                              Rusty Staub 1533 (11229/362)
                              Tony Perez 1524 (10861/356)
                              Andre Dawson 1518 (10769/352)
                              Lou Brock 1512 (11235/346)
                              Darrell Evans 1499 (10737/354)
                              Jake Beckley 1465 (10504/371)

                              In the Caught Stealing era, 20 players have tabulated 500 or more thefts, Lou Brock's stolen base % of 75.3% ranks 17th out of 20. Players with >80% and <76%. SB in ()
                              Tim Raines (808) - 84.70%
                              Willie Wilson (668) - 83.29%
                              Davey Lopes (557) - 83.01%
                              Joe Morgan (689) - 80.96%
                              Vince Coleman (752) - 80.94%
                              Ty Cobb (897) - 80.88%
                              Rickey Henderson (1406) - 80.76%

                              Brett Butler (558) - 68.47%!
                              Maury Wills (586) - 73.80%
                              Juan Pierre (540) - 74.69%
                              Lou Brock (938) - 75.34%
                              Cesar Cedeno (550) - 75.44%
                              Last edited by Jar of Flies; 07-16-2011, 09:51 AM.
                              Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
                              http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                This election is closed. We had our usual 11 player ballots and 10 contributor ballots and inducted players Perucho Cepeda, Masaaki Koyama, and Lou Whitaker along with contributor Bob Ferguson. The official results follow, players first.

                                Code:
                                Players………………..	votes	pts
                                Whitaker, Lou	10	99
                                Cepeda, Perucho	7	59
                                Koyama, Masaaki	7	59
                                Brock, Lou	6	57
                                Reuschel, Rick	7	48
                                Freehan, Bill	9	41
                                Aparicio, Luis	6	39
                                Evans, Dwight	7	38
                                Dawson, Andre	7	37
                                Smith, Reggie	7	36
                                Rixey , Eppa	4	34
                                Beckley , Jake	4	32
                                Grimes , B	3	26
                                Sheckard , J	4	26
                                Trouppe, Quincy	6	26
                                Bando, Sal	4	25
                                Berger , Wally	3	20
                                Shocker, Urban	3	17
                                Childs , Cupid	2	15
                                Dandridge, Ray	3	10
                                Howard, Frank	1	10
                                Mullane , Tony	2	10
                                Sewell , Joe	1	10
                                Cepeda, Orlando	1	9
                                Fingers, Rollie	1	9
                                Gomez, Lefty	1	9
                                Lundy , Dick	1	8
                                McVey , Cal	1	8
                                Pierce, Billy	3	8
                                Evans, Darrell	1	7
                                Duffy , Hugh	2	5
                                Perez, Tony	2	5
                                Leach , Tommy	1	4
                                Nettles, Graig	1	3
                                Newcombe, Don	1	3
                                Evers, Johnny	1	2
                                Murphy, Dale	1	2
                                Stieb, Dave	1	2
                                Now the contributors:
                                Code:
                                Contributor………	votes	pts
                                Ferguson, Bob	8	24
                                Caylor , O. P.	4	18
                                Elias, Al Munro	7	18
                                Abe, Iso	5	17
                                Evans, Billy	4	14
                                Neft, David	6	13
                                Caray, Harry	1	5
                                Jobe, Frank	1	5
                                Pesky, Johnny	1	5
                                Martin, Billy	1	4
                                O'Doul, Lefty	1	4
                                Smith, Red	1	4
                                Steinbrenner, G	3	4
                                Harris , Bucky	1	3
                                Harvey, Doug	1	3
                                Howsam, Bob	1	2
                                McCarthy, Tommy	1	2
                                Mizuhara, S	1	2
                                Uecker, Bob	1	2
                                Harwell, Ernie	1	1
                                Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                                Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                                A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                                Comment

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