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2005 Best of Baseball election thread

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  • 2005 Best of Baseball election thread

    This is our seventieth election in this project. The entire rules follow.

    This election will end at 11:59:59 PM EDT on August 26, 2011

    The prior election, and the ballots of the 2003 voters, are in this thread
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  • #2

    1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance. Should there be unannounced multiple votes from the same IP, I will investigate the circumstances, and all user names involved may be barred from this project as a result, and all but one of the multiple usernames permanently banned from the site. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.

    2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to elect a full complement of candidates for the ballot in question in two of any four consecutive elections, the portion(s) of the project failing to meet the election requirement will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.

    3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.

    4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.

    5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.

    6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the voting is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.

    7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.

    8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.

    9) Each election will run for approximately two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.

    10) No one is excluded from being a candidate, regardless of the league they played in, except those elected in either the contributor or player ballots. At that point, they are removed from further consideration. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project.

    11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. I realize voters will sometimes have idiosyncratic choices, and I try to allow for that. However, a clear flouting of a consensus is apt to be met with a request that the ballot be justified pursuant to this rule. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.

    12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.

    13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration. For players, any request for a multiple time all-star in the all-star era will be approved. Players of that quality will generally be approved without much ado. However, when a player lacks that kind of qualification, I will likely ask for you to get a second from among our voters via a post in the current election thread. When in doubt, I will also require a second for suggested contributors. If a second is forthcoming, the player will be added. If not, the request will be rejected. I want to limit requests and seconds to players or contributors you actually might vote for.

    14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.

    15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.

    16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.

    17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.

    18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 2-1-0 or whatever is appropriate for the number of players tied system. If a voter does not list a candidate, he receives zero points in the tiebreaker procedure. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, the candidate with the most votes received wins. If it is still tied after that, those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.

    19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.

    20) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.

    21) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


    • #3
      The players who become eligible in 2005 are:
      Browning , Tom
      Carter , Joe
      Darling , Ron
      Davis , Chili
      Davis , Mark
      Deshaies , Jim 
      Gwynn , Tony
      Hrbek , Kent
      Pendleton , Terry
      Puckett , Kirby
      Ripken, Jr. , Cal
      Samuel , Juan
      Sax , Steve
      Valenzuela , Fernando
      Viola , Frank
      The contributors who becomes eligible in 2005 are:
      Doucet , Jacques
      Schuerholtz , John
      Last edited by jalbright; 08-13-2011, 08:43 AM.
      Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
      Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
      A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


      • #4
        The 2004 player candidates who were not elected had these results in that election:
        player………………….	votes	pts
        Freehan, Bill	10	46
        Evans, Dwight	6	39
        Dawson, Andre	7	35
        Smith, Reggie	7	35
        Brock, Lou	6	34
        Aparicio, Luis	6	32
        Rixey , Eppa	4	28
        Trouppe, Quincy	6	28
        Bando, Sal	4	24
        Beckley , Jake	4	22
        Sheckard , J	4	20
        Berger , Wally	3	18
        Shocker, Urban	4	18
        Childs , Cupid	5	16
        Grimes , B	2	13
        Mullane , Tony	2	9
        Pierce, Billy	3	9
        Howard, Frank	1	8
        Lundy , Dick	1	8
        Sewell , Joe	1	8
        Cepeda, Orlando	1	7
        Dandridge, Ray	2	7
        Evans, Darrell	1	7
        Fingers, Rollie	1	7
        Gomez, Lefty	1	6
        Duffy , Hugh	1	3
        Leach , Tommy	1	2
        Nettles, Graig	2	2
        Newcombe, Don	1	2
        Perez, Tony	2	2

        The 2004 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in that election:
        Contributor…….	votes	pts
        Neft, David	8	22
        Caylor , O. P.	4	19
        Evans, Billy	6	19
        Steinbrenner, G	4	9
        Mizuhara, S	4	8
        Harvey, Doug	3	7
        Caray, Harry	1	5
        Jobe, Frank	1	5
        Martin, Billy	1	5
        Pesky, Johnny	1	5
        O'Doul, Lefty	1	4
        Harris , Bucky	1	3
        Howsam, Bob	1	3
        Uecker, Bob	1	3
        Harwell, Ernie	1	2
        McCarthy, Tommy	1	2
        Pompez, Alex	2	2
        Busch, Augie	1	1
        Smith, Red	1	1
        Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
        Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
        A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


        • #5
          Members of the Best of Baseball Hall. Last election's inductees are in red.
          Hank Aaron
          Pete Alexander
          Dick Allen
          Cap Anson
          Luke Appling
          Richie Ashburn
          Earl Averill
          Frank Baker
          Ernie Banks
          Ross Barnes
          John Beckwith
          Cool Papa Bell
          Johnny Bench
          Charlie Bennett
          Yogi Berra
          Akira Bessho
          Bert Blyleven
          Wade Boggs
          Lou Boudreau
          Ken Boyer
          Roger Bresnahan
          George Brett
          Dan Brouthers
          Mordecai Brown
          Ray Brown
          Willard Brown
          Jim Bunning
          Jesse Burkett
          Roy Campanella
          Rod Carew
          Max Carey
          Gary Carter
          Steve Carlton
          Bob Caruthers
          Perucho Cepeda
          Oscar Charleston
          Fred Clarke
          John Clarkson
          Roberto Clemente
          Ty Cobb
          Mickey Cochrane
          Eddie Collins
          Jimmy Collins
          Roger Connor
          Stan Coveleski
          Sam Crawford
          Joe Cronin
          Bill Dahlen
          George Davis
          Dizzy Dean
          Ed Delahanty
          Bill Dickey
          Martin Dihigo
          Joe DiMaggio
          Larry Doby
          Bobby Doerr
          Don Drysdale
          Dennis Eckersley
          Buck Ewing
          Red Faber
          Bob Feller
          Wes Ferrell
          Carlton Fisk
          Elmer Flick
          Whitey Ford
          Willie Foster
          Nellie Fox
          Jimmie Foxx
          Frankie Frisch
          Pud Galvin
          Lou Gehrig
          Charlie Gehringer
          Bob Gibson
          Josh Gibson
          Jack Glasscock
          Joe Gordon
          George Gore
          Goose Goslin
          Goose Gossage
          Frank Grant
          Hank Greenberg
          Bobby Grich
          Heinie Groh
          Lefty Grove
          Stan Hack
          Billy Hamilton
          Isao Harimoto
          Gabby Hartnett
          Harry Heilmann
          Rickey Henderson
          Billy Herman
          Keith Hernandez
          Pete Hill
          Paul Hines
          Rogers Hornsby
          Carl Hubbell
          Kazuhisa Inao
          Monte Irvin
          Joe Jackson
          Reggie Jackson
          Ferguson Jenkins
          Hughie Jennings
          Grant "Home Run"Johnson
          Walter Johnson
          Addie Joss
          Al Kaline
          Masaichi Kaneda
          Tim Keefe
          Willie Keeler
          Charlie Keller
          Joe Kelley
          King Kelly
          Harmon Killebrew
          Ralph Kiner
          Sandy Koufax
          Masaaki Koyama
          Nap LaJoie
          Bob Lemon
          Buck Leonard
          Pop Lloyd
          Ted Lyons
          Biz Mackey
          Sherry Magee
          Mickey Mantle
          Juan Marichal
          Eddie Mathews
          Christy Mathewson
          Willie Mays
          Willie McCovey
          Joe McGinnity
          Bid McPhee
          Joe Medwick
          Jose Mendez
          Minnie Minoso
          Johnny Mize
          Paul Molitor
          Dobie Moore
          Joe Morgan
          Eddie Murray
          Stan Musial
          Shigeo Nagashima
          Hal Newhouser
          Kid Nichols
          Phil Niekro
          Katsuya Nomura
          Hiromitsu Ochiai
          Sadaharu Oh
          Alejandro Oms
          Jim O'Rourke
          Mel Ott
          Satchel Paige
          Jim Palmer
          Gaylord Perry
          Eddie Plank
          Charlie Radbourn
          Tim Raines
          Pee Wee Reese
          Rick Reuschel
          Robin Roberts
          Brooks Robinson
          Frank Robinson
          Jackie Robinson
          Bullet Joe Rogan
          Pete Rose
          Edd Roush
          Red Ruffing
          Amos Rusie
          Babe Ruth
          Nolan Ryan
          Ryne Sandberg
          Ron Santo
          Louis Santop
          Mike Schmidt
          Tom Seaver
          Al Simmons
          Ted Simmons
          George Sisler
          Enos Slaughter
          Hilton Smith
          Ozzie Smith
          Duke Snider
          Warren Spahn
          Tris Speaker
          Victor Starffin
          Willie Stargell
          Joe Start
          Turkey Stearnes
          Harry Stovey
          Mule Suttles
          Don Sutton
          Ezra Sutton
          Bill Terry
          Sam Thompson
          Luis Tiant
          Joe Torre
          Cristobal Torriente
          Alan Trammell
          Pie Traynor
          Dazzy Vance
          Arky Vaughan
          Rube Waddell
          Honus Wagner
          Bobby Wallace
          Ed Walsh
          Paul Waner
          John M. Ward
          Willie Wells
          Zack Wheat
          Lou Whitaker
          Deacon White
          Hoyt Wilhelm
          Billy Williams
          Smoky Joe Williams
          Ted Williams
          Jud Wilson
          Dave Winfield
          George Wright
          Early Wynn
          Jimmy Wynn
          Carl Yastrzemski
          Cy Young
          Robin Yount
          Iso Abe
          Doc Adams
          Mel Allen
          Walter Alston
          Sparky Anderson
          Red Barber
          Ed Barrow
          Buzzue Bavasi
          Ed Bolden
          Alexander Cartwright
          Henry Chadwick
          Frank Chance
          Charlie Commiskey
          Charles Conlon
          Tom Connolly
          Jim Creighton
          Jack Dunn
          Leo Durocher
          Al Munro Elias
          Bob Ferguson
          Rube Foster
          Ford Frick
          Gus Greenlee
          Clark Griffith
          Ned Hanlon
          Vic Harris
          Whitey Herzog
          William Hulbert
          Miller Huggins
          Ban Johnson
          Tetsuharu Kawakami
          Bill Klem
          Kenesaw Landis
          Tommy Lasorda
          Al Lopez
          Connie Mack
          Larry MacPhail
          Joe McCarthy
          John McGraw
          Bill McKechnie
          Marvin Miller
          Walter O'Malley
          Buck O'Neill
          Dickey Pearce
          Cum Posey
          A. J. Reach
          Francis Richter
          Branch Rickey
          Phil Rizzuto
          Jacob Ruppert
          Vin Scully
          Frank Selee
          Ben Shibe
          Matsutaro Shoriki
          Billy Southworth
          Al Spalding
          Alfred Spink
          J. G. T. Spink
          Casey Stengel
          C. I. Taylor
          Kazuto Tsuruoka
          Bill Veeck
          Earl Weaver
          George Weiss
          Sol White
          J. L. Wilkinson
          Dick Williams
          Harry Wright
          Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
          Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
          A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


          • #6
            The complete list of eligible players:
            Adams , Babe
            Adams , Bobby
            Adams , Sparky
            Allen , Johnny
            Alou , Jesus
            Alou , Matty
            Alou, Felipe
            Altrock , Nick
            Aparicio, Luis
            Archer , Jimmy
            Arlett , Buzz
            Austin , Jimmy
            Avila, Bobby
            Bailey , Bob 
            Baines , Harold
            Baker , Dusty
            Bancroft , Dave
            Bando , Sal
            Barry , Jack
            Bartell , Dick
            Battin , Joe
            Bauer , Hank
            Baylor , Don
            Beaumont , Ginger
            Beckert, Glenn
            Beckley , Jake
            Bedrosian , Steve
            Belanger , Mark
            Bell , Buddy
            Bell , George
            Bender , Chief
            Benton , Larry
            Berg , Moe
            Bergen , Marty
            Berger , Wally
            Berry , Charlie
            Bibby , Jim 
            Bigbee , Carson
            Billingham , Jack
            Bishop , Max
            Blackwell , Ewell
            Blades , Ray
            Blair , Paul
            Blass , Steve
            Blue , Lu
            Blue , Vida
            Bluege , Ossie
            Bodie , Ping
            Boley , Joe
            Bond , Tommy
            Bonds , Bobby
            Boone, Bob
            Bottomley , Jim
            Bowa , Larry
            Boyer , Clete
            Bradley , Bill
            Brecheen , Harry
            Breitenstein , Ted
            Brewer , Jim 
            Bridges , Tommy
            Brock, Lou
            Browning , Pete
            Browning , Tom
            Bruton, Bill
            Buckner , Bill
            Burdette , Lew
            Burgess , Smoky  
            Burns , George J.
            Burroughs , Jeff
            Bush  , Joe
            Bush , Donie
            Bush , Guy
            Butler , Brett
            Cadore , Leon
            Camilli , Dolph
            Camnitz , Howie
            Campaneris , Bert
            Campbell , Bill
            Candelaria , John
            Candiotti , Tom
            Cardenal , Jose
            Cardenas , Leo 
            Carrasquel. Chico 
            Carrigan , Bill
            Carroll, Clay
            Carter , Joe
            Case , George
            Cash , Dave
            Cash, Norm
            Cavaretta , Phil
            Cedeno , Cesar
            Cepeda , Orlando
            Cey , Ron
            Chandler , Spud
            Chapman , Ben
            Chapman , Ray
            Chapman , Sam
            Chase , Hal
            Chesbro , Jack
            Childs , Cupid
            Cicotte , Eddie
            Cissell , Bill
            Clark , Jack
            Clark , Watty
            Clarkson , Bus
            Clift, Harlond
            Coakley , Andy
            Colavito, Rocky
            Collins , Shano
            Combs , Earle
            Concepcion , Dave
            Conroy , Wid
            Coombs , Jack
            Cooper , Andy
            Cooper , Mort
            Cooper , Walker
            Cooper , Wilbur
            Courtney , Clint
            Cox , Billy
            Crandall , Doc
            Crandall, Del
            Cravath , Gavvy
            Criger , Lou
            Critz , Hughie
            Cross , Lave
            Crowder , Al 
            Cruise , Walt
            Cruz , Jose
            Cuccinello , Tony
            Cummings , Candy
            Cuyler , Kiki
            Dandridge , Ray
            Danning , Harry
            Dark , Alvin
            Darling , Ron
            Daubert , Jake
            Davis , Chili
            Davis , Curt
            Davis , Harry
            Davis , Mark
            Davis , Spud
            Dawson , Andre
            Day , Leon
            DeCinces, Doug
            Dempsey , Rick
            Denny , John
            Dent , Bucky
            Derringer , Paul
            Deshaies , Jim 
            DiMaggio , Dom
            Dinneen , Bill
            Doak , Bill
            Donaldson, John
            Donlin , Mike
            Donovan , Bill
            Dooin , Red
            Downing, Bryan
            Doyle , Jack 
            Doyle , Larry
            Dropo , Walt
            Duffy , Hugh
            Dugan , Joe
            Dunlap , Fred
            Dykes , Jimmy
            Earnshaw , George
            Easter, Luke
            Edwards , Hank
            Ehmke , Howard
            Eisenreich , Jim 
            Elberfeld , Kid
            Elliott , Bob
            Elliott , Jumbo
            Ellis , Dock
            Enatsu , Yutaka
            Ennis, Del
            Ens , Jewel
            Erskine , Carl
            Evans , Darrell
            Evans , Dwight
            Evers , Johnny
            Face, Roy
            Fairly , Ron
            Falkenberg , Cy
            Ferrell , Rick
            Fingers , Rollie
            Fitzsimmons , Freddie
            Flanagan , Mike
            Fletcher , Art
            Flood , Curt
            Fonseca , Lew
            Forsch, Bob
            Foster , Eddie
            Foster , George
            Fraser , Chick
            Freehan, Bill
            Fregosi , Jim
            Furillo , Carl
            Gaetti , Gary
            Galan , Augie
            Garner , Phil
            Garver, Ned
            Garvey , Steve
            Gelbert , Charlie
            Gibson , Kirk
            Gleason , Kid
            Gomez , Lefty
            Gonzalez , Mike
            Gowdy , Hank
            Grant , Eddie
            Grantham , George
            Griffey, Sr, Ken
            Grimes , Burleigh
            Grimm , Charlie
            Grissom , Marv
            Groat, Dick
            Gromek , Steve
            Grove , Orval
            Guerrero , Pedro
            Guidry, Ron
            Gullickson , Bill
            Gustine , Frank
            Gwynn , Tony
            Haas , Mule
            Haddix, Harvey
            Hafey , Chick
            Hahn , Noodles
            Haines , Jesse
            Hallahan , Bill
            Harder , Mel
            Hargrave , Bubbles
            Hargrove , Mike
            Harrah , Toby
            Harrelson , Bud
            Harris , Bucky
            Harris , Vic
            Hatton , Grady
            Hearn , Jim 
            Hebner , Richie
            Hegan , Jim
            Helms, Tommy
            Hemus , Solly
            Henderson , Dave
            Henke , Tom
            Henrich , Tommy
            Herman , Babe
            Hernandez , Willie
            Hershiser , Orel
            Herzog , Buck 
            Hickman , Jim
            Higgins , Mike
            Hiller , John
            Hinchman , Bill
            Hodges, Gil
            Holmes , Tommy
            Holtzman , Ken
            Honeycutt , Rick
            Hooper , Harry
            Hooton, Burt
            Horton , Willie
            Hough, Charlie
            Houtteman , Art
            Howard , Frank
            Howard, Elston
            Hoy , Dummy
            Hoyt , Waite
            Hrabosky , Al
            Hrbek , Kent
            Huggins , Miller
            Hunter , Catfish
            Hurst , Bruce
            Hutchinson , Fred
            Irwin , Charlie
            Jackman , Will
            Jackson , Sonny
            Jensen , Jackie
            John , Tommy
            Johnson , Bob
            Johnson , Davey
            Johnson , Judy
            Jones , Charley
            Jones , Doug
            Jones , Fielder
            Jones , Sam P.
            Jordan , Tim
            Jorgenson , Mike
            Judge , Joe
            Jurges , Billy
            Kaat, Jim
            Kamm , Willie
            Kawakami , Tetsuharu
            Kell , George
            Keltner , Ken
            Kennedy , Terry
            Kerr , Dickie
            Kessinger , Don
            Kile , Darryl
            Killefer , Bill
            Kilroy , Matt
            Kinder , Ellis
            Kingman , Dave
            Klein , Chuck
            Kling , Johnny
            Kluszewski, Ted
            Knabe , Otto
            Knight , Ray
            Koosman , Jerry
            Kremer , Ray
            Kress , Red
            Krukow , Mike
            Kuenn, Harvey
            Kuhel , Joe
            Kuzava , Bob
            Lange , Bill
            Lanier , Hal
            Lansford , Carney
            Larkin , Henry
            Larsen, Don
            Latham , Arlie
            Lavagetto , Cookie
            Law, Vern
            Lazzeri , Tony
            Leach , Freddy
            Leach , Tommy
            Lee , Bill
            Lee , Bill (Spaceman)
            Leever , Sam
            Lemon , Chet
            Leonard , Dennis
            Leonard , Emil (Dutch)
            Lewis , Duffy
            Lewis, Buddy
            Lindstrom , Freddie
            Lobert , Hans
            Lockman , Whitey
            Lolich, Mickey
            Lollar, Sherm
            Lombardi , Ernie
            Lonborg , Jim
            Long , Herman
            Lopat , Ed
            Lopes , Davey
            Lopez , Al
            Lowe , Bobby
            Lowenstein , John
            Lucas , Red
            Lundy , Dick
            Luque , Dolf
            Luzinski, Greg
            Lyle , Sparky
            Lynn , Fred 
            Lyons , Denny
            Madlock , Bill
            Maglie , Sal
            Maloney, Jim
            Mancuso , Gus
            Manush , Heinie
            Maranville , Rabbit
            Marberry , Firpo
            Marion , Marty
            Maris, Roger
            Marquard , Rube
            Marshall , Mike G.
            Martin , Morrie
            Martin , Pepper
            Martinez , Dennis
            Mathews , Bobby
            May , Lee
            Mays , Carl
            Mazeroski , Bill
            McAleer , Jimmy
            McCarthy , Tommy
            McCarver , Tim
            McCormick , Frank
            McCormick , Jim
            McDaniel , Lindy
            McDougald, Gil
            McGowan , Bill
            McGraw , Tug
            McInnis , Stuffy
            McLain , Denny
            McLean , Larry
            McMahon, Don
            McManus , Marty
            McMillan, Roy
            McNally , Dave
            McVey , Cal
            Meadows , Lee
            Messersmith , Andy
            Meusel , Bob
            Miksis , Eddie
            Milan , Clyde
            Millan , Felix
            Miller , Bing
            Miller , Dots
            Miller , Hack
            Monday , Rick
            Money , Don
            Monroe , Bill
            Moon, Wally
            Moore , Jo-Jo
            Moore , Terry
            Moran , Pat
            Morris , Jack
            Mostil , Johnny
            Mota, Manny
            Mulcahy , Hugh
            Mullane , Tony
            Mungo , Van
            Munson , Thurman
            Murcer , Bobby
            Murphy , Dale
            Murphy , Danny
            Murray , Red
            Myer , Buddy
            Nehf , Art
            Nettles , Graig
            Newcombe , Don
            Newsom , Bobo
            Nicholson , Bill
            Niekro , Joe
            Northey , Ron
            O'Doul , Lefty
            Oeschger , Joe
            O'Farrell , Bob
            O'Leary , Charlie
            Oliva, Tony
            Oliver , Al
            O'Neill , Steve
            O'Neill , Tip
            Orr , Dave
            Pabor , Charlie
            Pafko , Andy
            Parker , Dave
            Parrish , Lance
            Parrish , Larry
            Pascual, Camilo
            Paskert , Dode
            Pearson , Monte
            Peckinpaugh , Roger
            Peitz , Heinie
            Pena , Tony
            Pendleton , Terry
            Pennock , Herb
            Perdue , Hub
            Perez , Tony
            Perkins , Cy
            Perranoski , Ron
            Perry , Jim
            Pesky , Johnny
            Petrocelli, Rico
            Phillippe , Deacon 
            Phillips , Tony
            Pierce , Billy
            Pike , Lip
            Piniella, Lou
            Pinson, Vada
            Pipp , Wally
            Podres, Johnny
            Poles , Spotswood
            Porterfield , Bob
            Powell , Boog
            Power , Vic
            Pruett , Hub
            Puckett , Kirby
            Puhl , Terry
            Quinn , Jack
            Quisenberry , Dan
            Randolph , Willie
            Raschi , Vic
            Raymond , Bugs
            Reardon , Jeff
            Redding , Dick
            Reiser , Pete
            Remsen , Jack
            Remy , Jerry
            Reynolds , Allie
            Rice , Del
            Rice , Jim 
            Rice , Sam
            Richard, J R
            Richardson , Bobby
            Richardson , Hardy
            Righetti , Dave
            Ring , Jimmy
            Ripken, Jr. , Cal
            Ritchey , Claude
            Rivers , Mickey
            Rixey , Eppa
            Robertson , Dave
            Roe , Preacher
            Rolfe , Red
            Rommel , Eddie
            Root , Charlie
            Rosen, Al
            Rucker , Nap
            Rudolph , Dick
            Ruel , Muddy
            Russell , Bill
            Ryan  , Jimmy
            Sain , Johnny
            Samuel , Juan
            Sanguillen , Manny
            Sauer , Hank
            Sax , Steve
            Schacht , Al
            Schaefer , Germany
            Schalk , Ray
            Schang , Wally
            Schoendienst , Red
            Schreckengost , Ossie
            Schulte , Frank
            Scott , Everett
            Scott , George
            Scott , Jack
            Scott , Mike
            Selkirk , George
            Severeid , Hank
            Sewell , Joe
            Sewell , Luke
            Sewell , Rip
            Seymour , Cy
            Shantz, Bobby
            Sheckard , Jimmy
            Sherdel , Bill
            Shocker , Urban
            Short , Chris
            Siebert , Sonny
            Sievers , Roy
            Simmons, Curt
            Singleton , Ken
            Sisti , Sibby
            Smalley , Roy
            Smith , Earl
            Smith , Lee
            Smith , Lonnie
            Smith , Reggie
            Smith , Sherry
            Sparks , Tully
            Speier, Chris
            Stahl , Jake
            Stanky , Eddie
            Stanley , Mickey
            Staub , Rusty
            Steinfeldt , Harry
            Stephens , Vern
            Stephenson , Riggs
            Stewart , Dave
            Stieb , Dave
            Stottlemyre , Mel
            Street , Gabby
            Suhr , Gus
            Sukeforth , Clyde
            Sundberg , Jim
            Sutcliffe , Rick
            Sutter , Bruce
            Sweeney , Bill
            Tannehill , Jesse
            Taylor , Ben
            Tebbetts , Birdie
            Tekulve, Kent
            Templeton , Garry
            Tenace , Gene
            Tenney , Fred
            Thevenow , Tommy
            Thomas , Ira
            Thomson , Bobby
            Thornton , Andre
            Tiernan , Mike
            Tinker , Joe
            Tobin , Jim
            Toney , Fred
            Torgeson, Earl
            Torrez , Mike
            Travis, Cecil
            Trouppe , Quincy
            Trout , Dizzy
            Trucks , Virgil
            Tudor , John 
            Turner , Terry
            Uhle , George
            Valentine , Ellis
            Valenzuela , Fernando
            Valo , Elmer
            Van Haltren , George
            Vander Meer , Johnny
            Veach , Bobby
            Vernon , Mickey
            Viola , Frank
            Walberg , Rube
            Walker , Harry
            Wallach , Tim
            Walters , Bucky
            Wambsganss , Bill
            Waner , Lloyd
            Warfield , Frank
            Warneke , Lon
            Watson , Bob 
            Welch , Bob
            Welch , Mickey
            Werber , Billy
            Wertz, Vic
            West , Sam
            Westrum , Wes
            White , Sol
            White , Will 
            White, Frank
            Whitehill , Earl
            Williams , Cy
            Williams , Ken
            Williamson , Ned
            Willis , Vic
            Wills, Maury
            Wilson , Hack
            Wilson , Jim
            Wilson , Jimmie
            Wilson , Willie
            Witt , Whitey
            Wood , Joe
            Wood , Wilbur
            Wright , Glenn
            Wyatt , Whit 
            Yamamoto , Koji
            Yeager , Steve
            Yerkes , Steve
            York , Rudy
            Young , Pep
            Youngs , Ross
            Zachary , Tom
            Zimmer , Chief
            The complete list of eligible contributors:
            Alou , Felipe
            Ashford, Emmet
            Autry, Gene
            Bancroft , Frank
            Barlick, Al
            Berger , Sy
            Bouton , Jim
            Brickhouse , Jack
            Buck , Jack 
            Bulkely , Morgan
            Busch , Augie
            Cambria , Joe
            Campbell , Jim
            Canel, Buck
            Caray , Skip
            Caray, Harry
            Carrigan, Bill
            Caylor , O. P.
            Chandler, Happy
            Chylak , Nestor
            Conlan , Jocko
            Cooper , Andy
            Cummings , Candy
            Dark , Alvin
            Davids , Bob 
            Dinneen , Bill
            Doubleday , Abner
            Doucet , Jacques
            Dreyfuss , Barney
            Dyer , Eddie
            Dykes , Jimmy
            Evans, Billy
            Feller, Sherm
            Fetzer, John
            Flood , Curt
            Foster , John B.
            Fowler, Bud
            Fullerton , Hugh
            Giles , Warren
            Gillick , Pat
            Gleason , Kid
            Gonzalez , Mike
            Gowdy , Curt
            Grimm, Charlie
            Haak , Howie
            Haney , Fred
            Harridge, Willie
            Harris , Bucky
            Harvey, Doug
            Harwell, Ernie
            Hemond , Roland
            Heydler, John
            Hillerich , John
            Hodges, Gil
            Hodges, Russ
            Houk , Ralph
            Howsam, Bob
            Hubbard , Cal
            Hutchinson , Fred
            Jobe , Frank
            Kaat , Jim
            Krichell, Paul
            Kuenn , Harvey
            Kuhn , Bowie
            Lanigan, Ernest
            Lardner , Ring
            Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W.
            Luque , Dolf
            MacPhail, Lee
            Manley , Effa
            Martin  , Billy
            Mauch , Gene
            McCarthy , Tommy
            McGowan, Bill
            Mills , A. G.
            Mizuhara, Shigeru
            Moran , Pat
            Murnane, Tim
            Murtaugh, Danny
            Mutrie , Jim
            Navin , Frank
            Neft , David
            Nelson , Lindsey
            Norworth, Jack
            O'Day, Hank
            O'Doul, Lefty
            O'Neill, Steve
            Osborn , Frank
            Palmer , Pete
            Pasquel, Jorge
            Patkin, Max
            Pesky , Johnny
            Pompez , Alex 
            Pulliam, Harry
            Ramirez, Felo
            Reese , Jimmie
            Rice, Grantland
            Richards, Paul
            Ritter , Lawrence
            Robinson , Wilbert
            Schoendienst, Red
            Schuerholtz , John
            Selig , Bud
            Sewell , Luke
            Sheppard, Bob
            Smith, Red
            Stallings , George
            Steinbrenner, George
            Street, Gabby
            Tanner , Chuck
            Thayer , Ernest
            Tyson, Ty
            Uecker , Bob
            van der Ahe, Chris
            Virdon, Bill
            Warfield , Frank
            Weyer , Lee
            Wilson , Horace
            Wrigley, Phil
            Yawkey, Tom
            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


            • #7
              My ballot
              1. Cal Ripken, Jr.
              2. Tony Gwynn
              3. Cupid Childs
              4. Sal Bando
              5. Quincy Trouppe
              6. Bill Freehan
              7. Reggie Smith
              8. Andre Dawson
              9. Hugh Duffy
              10. Tony Mullane
              11. Graig Nettles
              12. Bobby Bonds

              1. David Neft
              2. George Steinbrenner
              3. Shigeru Mizuhara
              4. Alex Pompez
              5. Bucky Harris

              Cal Ripken Jr and Tony Gwynn take over the top two spots and Bobby Bonds the #12 slot. On the contributor side, I've added Bucky Harris
              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


              • #8
                Ballot 2005:
                1 Cal Ripken Jr.
                2 Tony Gwynn
                3 Dwight Evans
                4 Dick Lundy
                5 Darrell Evans
                6 Bill Freehan
                7 Reggie Smith
                8 Jimmy Sheckard
                9 Andre Dawson
                10 Quincy Trouppe - bump for catching
                11 Urban Shocker
                12 Jake Beckley - favorite remaining 19th century candidate.

                1 Johnny Pesky
                2 John Schierholtz
                3 Shigeru Mizuhara
                4 Doug Harvey
                5 Alex Pompez

                Jalbright - Does John Schierholtz make your queue?

                Outfielders receiving the most votes in the current backlog, plus a new candidate that will receive votes:

                Sean Smith's WAR, zeroing out seasons below zero WAR, adjusting for shortened schedules.

                10.2 6.3 5.0 4.9 4.6 4.5 4.3 3.4 3.2 3.2 3.0 2.9 65.2 Dwight Evans
                11.0 6.8 6.7 6.6 4.2 4.2 3.3 3.2 2.7 2.5 2.4 2.2 63.7 Andre Dawson
                6.30 6.0 5.6 5.5 4.8 4.8 4.6 4.5 4.4 4.2 3.4 2.8 65.4 Reggie Smith
                5.10 5.1 5.1 4.2 3.9 3.3 2.4 2.3 2.3 1.8 1.7 1.7 41.7 Lou Brock
                7.90 7.0 5.9 4.3 4.1 3.5 3.3 3.0 3.0 2.9 2.7 2.4 54.5 Jimmy Sheckard
                7.20 6.7 5.0 4.9 4.4 4.3 3.7 2.8 2.6 2.3 2.1 0.5 46.5 Kirby Puckett

                Tough call on who is the best in this group, although Evans, Dawson, and Smith all have strengths. Sheckard is a clear #4, with Puckett at #5, and Brock at #6.

                Using Baseball Gauge Win Shares Above Bench if that is more your flavor:

                25.5 18.0 16.7 13.3 11.4 10.2 9.80 8.60 7.80 7.10 6.50 6.0 166.0 Dwight Evans
                23.9 16.0 12.8 12.4 12.3 10.3 9.90 7.80 6.70 6.40 6.00 5.5 146.9 Andre Dawson
                18.4 15.5 15.0 14.3 14.0 13.8 12.4 11.4 11.3 10.7 10.4 9.0 174.0 Reggie Smith
                18.0 17.5 16.9 13.6 10.8 9.40 9.30 9.10 8.50 7.90 6.20 3.5 146.3 Lou Brock
                23.1 22.7 18.1 14.7 12.2 11.9 11.7 11.1 11.0 9.40 8.90 8.0 174.1 Jimmy Sheckard
                17.6 16.3 15.9 13.5 12.7 12.5 10.3 9.20 8.90 6.90 4.50 3.7 132.0 Kirby Puckett

                Jimmy Sheckard looks awesome, a nudge ahead of Reggie Smith, with Dwight Evans a clear #3.

                A close matchup between Andre Dawson and Lou Brock. I'd take Dawson here, as I don't fully agree with Bill James methods on valuing defense play - Dawson was a ton better in this department and the figures shown might not reflect this. While his peak prime is comparable/better than Dawson and Brock, the lack of career/quality seasons leaves Puckett in 6th place.

                I understand the vote for Lou Brock - 3000 Hits, former SB champ, excellent post season resume - I just think his deficiencies outweigh these positives (Average or worse power for a corner outfielder, below average defense for a corner outfielder, and poor stolen base percentages).

                I don't think I can see the reasoning for a Puckett vote, unless you don't trust WAR/WS etc. It seems his defense is rated as merely ok in by PBP metrics, rather than excellent - I'm thinking of Torii Hunter as comparable - good to excellent in the first 3-5 seasons, then tapers off considerably as his offense begins to increase.

                For fans of Luis Aparicio - long career defensive whiz, above average running value, limited hitting value - I urge you to view Dave Bancroft's career too.

                Sean Smith's WAR:
                8.3 6.7 6.1 4.9 4.2 3.9 3.9 3.3 2.9 2.3 1.1 1.1 49.3 Bancroft
                5.6 5.2 4.9 4.0 3.9 3.7 3.5 3.2 2.7 2.7 2.6 2.3 50.8 Aparicio

                Comparable careers, but Bancroft moves ahead on the big 4 seasons.

                Baseball Gauge's WSAB:
                15.3 11.1 10.7 10.3 9.5 8.5 7.9 6.0 6.0 3.8 2.0 1.5 92.7 Bancroft
                7.50 6.60 5.40 4.90 4.6 4.1 4.0 3.5 3.1 2.4 1.8 1.6 51.4 Aparicio

                A Bancroft slaughtering.

                Attesting to Bancroft's defense, Michael Humphrey's DRA shows his value as either excellent or an all-time great - his 145 defensive runs are the most of anyone from the post dead ball, pre korean war time frame. I unfortunately don't have access to much of Humphrey's analysis.
                Last edited by Jar of Flies; 08-14-2011, 12:27 PM.
                Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post
                  Jalbright - Does John Schierholtz make your queue?
                  I haven't been convinced he belongs, but I'll certainly listen to anyone who tries to make the case. Two questions I have are: 1) how much did he build the teams (as opposed to the teams progressing from previously acquired talent), and 2) how much responsibility did he bear for the decline of the Royals in his later years with that franchise?
                  Last edited by jalbright; 08-13-2011, 03:51 PM.
                  Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                  Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                  A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


                  • #10
                    01. Cal Ripken, Jr.
                    02. Tony Gwynn
                    03. Jake Beckley
                    04. Urban Shocker
                    05. Wally Berger
                    06. Quincy Trouppe
                    07. Sal Bando
                    08. Billy Pierce
                    09. Bill Freehan
                    10. Cupid Childs
                    11. Reggie Smith
                    12. Tony Mullane

                    01. Frank Jobe
                    02. Lefty O'Doul
                    03. George Steinbrenner
                    04. David Neft
                    05. O.P. Caylor


                    • #11

                      1. Tony Gwynn
                      2 Cal Ripken Jr.
                      3. Lou Brock
                      4. Jake Beckley
                      5. Tony Mullane
                      6. Jimmy Sheckard
                      7. Ray Dandridge
                      8. Quincy Trouppe
                      9. Bill Freehan
                      10. Dwight Evans
                      11. Luis Aparicio
                      12. Andre Dawson


                      1. Harry Caray
                      2. David Neft
                      3. John Schuerholz
                      4. Bob Uecker
                      5. Billy Evans


                      • #12

                        1. Cal Ripken, Jr.
                        2. Tony Gwynn
                        3. Lou Brock
                        4. Luis Aparicio
                        5. Dwight Evans
                        6. Wally Berger
                        7. Eppa Rixey
                        8. Reggie Smith
                        9. Bill Freehan
                        10. Andre Dawson
                        11. Quincy Trouppe
                        12. Sal Bando


                        1. Billy Evans
                        2. David Neft
                        3. Shigeru Mizuhara
                        4. Alex Pompez
                        5. O.P. Caylor


                        • #13

                          1. Cal Ripken
                          2. Tony Gwynn
                          3. Reggie Smith
                          4. Jimmy Sheckard
                          5. Sal Bando
                          6. Dwight Evans
                          7. Kirby Puckett
                          8. Urban Shocker
                          9. Cupid Childs
                          10. Quincy Trouppe
                          11. Thurman Munson
                          12. Bill Freehan


                          1. O.P. Caylor
                          2. David Neft
                          3. George Steinbrenner
                          4. Billy Evans
                          5. Alex Pompez

                          1 and 2 go to Ripken and Gywnn. Puckett comes in at #7. Lou Brock falls off the ballot for now and Thurman Munson enters at #12. jalbright's excellent write up on Pompez last round sold him over the holdovers on the contributor's side.

                          Contributor queue: Pat Gillick, Billy Martin, Shigeru Mizuhara, Jocko Conlan, Cal Hubbard, Lefty O'Doul

                          Player queue: Hugh Duffy, Dale Murphy, Wally Schang, Hardy Richardson, Charley Jones, Jake Beckley, Lip Pike, Bruce Sutter


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post
                            I don't think I can see the reasoning for a Puckett vote, unless you don't trust WAR/WS etc. It seems his defense is rated as merely ok in by PBP metrics, rather than excellent - I'm thinking of Torii Hunter as comparable - good to excellent in the first 3-5 seasons, then tapers off considerably as his offense begins to increase.
                            There is more to Puckett than WAR. On paper, he is not much better than Don Mattingly from the same era, but he gets some credit for:

                            --All Star in 10 of his 12 seasons
                            --6 Gold Gloves (I know, I know)
                            --6 Silver Sluggers
                            --2.56 career MVP shares (49th all time despite a short career)
                            --1991 ALCS MVP
                            --22 Black ink in a short career
                            --122 gray ink in a short career

                            It's sometimes tough to get a handle on short career, high impact players like Puckett. Hack Wilson, Ralph Kiner, and a few other position players have short careers and a high impact and make my HOF despite this and I'm willing to give Puckett the benefit of the doubt here since he retired prematurely because of a debilitating disease and still at the top of his game.


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by jalbright View Post
                              I haven't been convinced he belongs, but I'll certainly listen to anyone who tries to make the case. Two questions I have are: 1) how much did he build the teams (as opposed to the teams progressing from previously acquired talent), and 2) how much responsibility did he bear for the decline of the Royals in his later years with that franchise?
                              After starting his career with two years in the Orioles' system, Schuerholz joined the Royals in 1970 as Assistant Farm Director and quickly made his way up through the ranks, to Assistant of Player Development, Farm Director, and Director of Scouting & Player Development throughout the decade. Schuerholz was a part of the brain trust that ran the Royals Baseball Academy and was a key member of the front offices that drafted or signed homegrown talent as Fred White, George Brett, Willie Wilson and Dan Quisenberry. By 1979 he was a team Vice President and in 1981, he was Assistant General Manager in charge of Player Personnel. That October, he took over full GM duties for the organization. Notable additions Schuerholz brought to the organization include David Cone, Bret Saberhagen, Cecil Fielder, Lonnie Smith, Danny Jackson, Kevin Seitzer, Jim Sundberg, Mike McFarlane, Bo Jackson, Tom "Flash" Gordon, Kevin Appier, Danny Tartabull, Jeff Conine, Jeff Montgomery and Kurt Stillwell. Schuerholz also drafted Will Clark, Frank Viola, Deion Sanders earlier in their careers though ultimately they opted not to sign. By the time he left, after the 1990 season, Schuerholz had developed the talent that led an expansion franchise to five post-season appearances in a six year span (1976-81) and had orchestrated a World Championship and ALCS appearance through his own wheeling and dealing. By the time Schuerholz left Kansas City, the stars of the team's glory days were either gone or washed up, though he left the team with a solid nucleus of young players around which to build. The Royals were a .500 club for Schuerholz's last couple seasons and several immediately after he left. The didn't fall off the table until owner Ewing Kauffman died and David Glass took over and instituted a cost-cutting approach to player acquisition and development. Schuerholz can't be blamed for the franchise's subsequent disappearance into the Abyss.

                              On October 10, 1990, he was hired as Executive VP and GM of the Atlanta Braves and remained in that capacity until his promotion to Team President on October 11, 2007, a position he retains. Schuerholz acquired plarrys like Terry Pendleton, Otis Nixon, Greg Maddux, etc. to start the dynasty and continued it through saavy drafting and signing of such future cogs as Chipper Jones, Andruw Jones, Rafael Furcal. All told, Schuerholz built the teams that won one World Championship, five NL pennants and reached the playoffs fourteen consecutive times. Since he relinquished his GM duties, the team has only reached the playoffs once.

                              To address your questions, Bill. While Schuerholz took over the reigns of a solid Royals team, his winners were as much the result of his improving the club through drafts, trades and signings (Sundberg, Smith, Saberhagen, Jackson, Mark Gubicza, Steve Balboni, etc.) as the leftovers from the 1977-81 run; a dynasty in which Schuerholz had a key part in helping to put together in the first place. When he took over the Braves, a last-place team, they had Tom Glavine, John Smoltz, David Justice and Ron Gant already, but would not have been playoff caliber without the immediate additions Schuerholz made, much less seen that winning continue in subsequent years as he turned them into a dynasty.

                              As for when Schuerholz left the Royals, the team had a sufficient core of young players around which to build, but subsequent ownership elected not to take advantage of it. In the intervening seasons (1991-92), the team was middle-of-the-pack. I don't see how any share of the blame for the Royals subsequent misfortunes can be laid at Schuerholz's feet.
                              "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                              "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                              "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                              "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe


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