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2009 Best of Baseball election thread

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  • 2009 Best of Baseball election thread

    This is our seventy-third election in this project. The entire rules follow.

    This election will end at 11:59:59 PM EDT on October 21, 2011

    The prior election, and the ballots of the 2008 voters, are in this thread
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  • #2

    1) BBF users in good standing may participate, provided they have not been banned from multiple projects in this forum. Anyone who has been told his or her votes will not count in more than one project in this forum will not have his or her vote counted unless he or she applies to the project manager for the right to vote and gets that request granted. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance. Should there be unannounced multiple votes from the same IP, I will investigate the circumstances, and all user names involved may be barred from this project as a result, and all but one of the multiple usernames permanently banned from the site. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.

    2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to elect a full complement of candidates for the ballot in question in two of any four consecutive elections, the portion(s) of the project failing to meet the election requirement will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.

    3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.

    4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.

    5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.

    6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the voting is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.

    7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.

    8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.

    9) Each election will run for approximately two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.

    10) No one is excluded from being a candidate, regardless of the league they played in, except those elected in either the contributor or player ballots. At that point, they are removed from further consideration. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project.

    11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. I realize voters will sometimes have idiosyncratic choices, and I try to allow for that. However, a clear flouting of a consensus is apt to be met with a request that the ballot be justified pursuant to this rule. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.

    12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.

    13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration. For players, any request for a multiple time all-star in the all-star era will be approved. Players of that quality will generally be approved without much ado. However, when a player lacks that kind of qualification, I will likely ask for you to get a second from among our voters via a post in the current election thread. When in doubt, I will also require a second for suggested contributors. If a second is forthcoming, the player will be added. If not, the request will be rejected. I want to limit requests and seconds to players or contributors you actually might vote for.

    14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.

    15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.

    16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.

    17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.

    18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 2-1-0 or whatever is appropriate for the number of players tied system. If a voter does not list a candidate, he receives zero points in the tiebreaker procedure. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, the candidate with the most votes received wins. If it is still tied after that, those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.

    19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.

    20) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


    • #3
      The players who become eligible in 2009 are:
      Beck , Rod
      Bonds , Barry
      Buhner , Jay
      Canseco , Jose
      Clark , Will
      Gooden , Dwight
      Grace , Mark
      Guillen , Ozzie
      Larkin , Barry
      Palmeiro , Rafael
      Saberhagen , Bret
      The contributors who become eligible in 2009 are:
      Gaston , Cito
      LaRussa , Tony
      Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
      Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
      A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


      • #4
        01. Barry Bonds
        02. Barry Larkin
        03. Jake Beckley
        04. Urban Shocker
        05. Wally Berger
        06. Sal Bando
        07. Billy Pierce
        08. Will Clark
        09. Willie Randolph
        10. Tony Mullane
        11. Chino Smith
        12. Eppa Rixey

        01. Frank Jobe
        02. Lefty O'Doul
        03. George Steinbrenner
        04. Pat Gillick
        05. Shigeru Mizuhara


        • #5
          The 2008 player candidates who were not elected had these results in that election:
          Brock, Lou	5	40
          Bando, Sal	5	38
          Rixey, Eppa	5	35
          Aparicio, Luis	5	34
          McGriff, Fred	3	27
          Puckett, Kirby	5	27
          Shocker, Urban	4	26
          Beckley , Jake	4	23
          Mullane , Tony	4	22
          Berger , Wally	3	20
          Pierce, Billy	5	17
          Duffy , Hugh	3	14
          Dandridge, Ray	4	13
          Nettles, Graig	3	13
          Evans, Darrell	3	11
          Sutter, Bruce	3	11
          Lundy , Dick	1	10
          Randolph, W	3	9
          Sewell , Joe	1	9
          Fingers, Rollie	1	8
          Grimes , B	2	8
          Leach , Tommy	1	8
          Quisenberry, D	2	7
          Howard, Frank	1	6
          Munson, Thurman	1	6
          Newcombe, Don	1	6
          Bonds, Bobby	1	5
          Cepeda, Orlando	1	5
          Gomez, Lefty	1	5
          Smith, Chino	3	5
          Campaneris, B	1	4
          Murphy, Dale	1	4
          Perez, Tony	1	4
          Evers, Johnny	1	3
          Jones, Charley	1	3
          Rice, Sam	1	2
          Pike, Lip	1	1
          Richardson , H	1	1
          The leaders of the failed 2008 contributor ballot were:
          19 David Neft
          17 George Steinbrenner
          15 Pat Gillick

          I strongly suggest that you pay attention to these lists, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.
          Last edited by jalbright; 10-13-2011, 01:08 PM.
          Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
          Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
          A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


          • #6
            Members of the Best of Baseball Hall. Last election's inductees are in red.

            Hank Aaron
            Pete Alexander
            Dick Allen
            Cap Anson
            Luke Appling
            Richie Ashburn
            Earl Averill
            Frank Baker
            Ernie Banks
            Ross Barnes
            John Beckwith
            Cool Papa Bell
            Johnny Bench
            Charlie Bennett
            Yogi Berra
            Akira Bessho
            Bert Blyleven
            Wade Boggs
            Lou Boudreau
            Ken Boyer
            Roger Bresnahan
            George Brett
            Dan Brouthers
            Mordecai Brown
            Ray Brown
            Willard Brown
            Jim Bunning
            Jesse Burkett
            Roy Campanella
            Rod Carew
            Max Carey
            Gary Carter
            Steve Carlton
            Bob Caruthers
            Perucho Cepeda
            Oscar Charleston
            Cupid Childs
            Fred Clarke
            John Clarkson
            Roberto Clemente
            Ty Cobb
            Mickey Cochrane
            Eddie Collins
            Jimmy Collins
            Roger Connor
            Stan Coveleski
            Sam Crawford
            Joe Cronin
            Bill Dahlen
            George Davis
            Andre Dawson
            Dizzy Dean
            Ed Delahanty
            Bill Dickey
            Martin Dihigo
            Joe DiMaggio
            Larry Doby
            Bobby Doerr
            Don Drysdale
            Dennis Eckersley
            Dwight Evans
            Buck Ewing
            Red Faber
            Bob Feller
            Wes Ferrell
            Carlton Fisk
            Elmer Flick
            Whitey Ford
            Willie Foster
            Nellie Fox
            Jimmie Foxx
            Bill Freehan
            Frankie Frisch
            Pud Galvin
            Lou Gehrig
            Charlie Gehringer
            Bob Gibson
            Josh Gibson
            Jack Glasscock
            Joe Gordon
            George Gore
            Goose Goslin
            Goose Gossage
            Frank Grant
            Hank Greenberg
            Bobby Grich
            Heinie Groh
            Lefty Grove
            Tony Gwynn
            Stan Hack
            Billy Hamilton
            Isao Harimoto
            Gabby Hartnett
            Harry Heilmann
            Rickey Henderson
            Billy Herman
            Keith Hernandez
            Pete Hill
            Paul Hines
            Rogers Hornsby
            Carl Hubbell
            Kazuhisa Inao
            Monte Irvin
            Joe Jackson
            Reggie Jackson
            Ferguson Jenkins
            Hughie Jennings
            Grant "Home Run"Johnson
            Walter Johnson
            Addie Joss
            Al Kaline
            Masaichi Kaneda
            Tim Keefe
            Willie Keeler
            Charlie Keller
            Joe Kelley
            King Kelly
            Harmon Killebrew
            Ralph Kiner
            Sandy Koufax
            Masaaki Koyama
            Nap LaJoie
            Bob Lemon
            Buck Leonard
            Pop Lloyd
            Ted Lyons
            Biz Mackey
            Sherry Magee
            Mickey Mantle
            Juan Marichal
            Eddie Mathews
            Christy Mathewson
            Willie Mays
            Willie McCovey
            Joe McGinnity
            Bid McPhee
            Joe Medwick
            Jose Mendez
            Minnie Minoso
            Johnny Mize
            Paul Molitor
            Dobie Moore
            Joe Morgan
            Eddie Murray
            Stan Musial
            Shigeo Nagashima
            Hal Newhouser
            Kid Nichols
            Phil Niekro
            Katsuya Nomura
            Hiromitsu Ochiai
            Sadaharu Oh
            Alejandro Oms
            Jim O'Rourke
            Mel Ott
            Satchel Paige
            Jim Palmer
            Gaylord Perry
            Eddie Plank
            Charlie Radbourn
            Tim Raines
            Pee Wee Reese
            Rick Reuschel
            Cal Ripken, Jr. 
            Robin Roberts
            Brooks Robinson
            Frank Robinson
            Jackie Robinson
            Bullet Joe Rogan
            Pete Rose
            Edd Roush
            Red Ruffing
            Amos Rusie
            Babe Ruth
            Nolan Ryan
            Ryne Sandberg
            Ron Santo
            Louis Santop
            Mike Schmidt
            Tom Seaver
            Jimmy Sheckard
            Al Simmons
            Ted Simmons
            George Sisler
            Enos Slaughter
            Hilton Smith
            Ozzie Smith
            Reggie Smith
            Duke Snider
            Warren Spahn
            Tris Speaker
            Victor Starffin
            Willie Stargell
            Joe Start
            Turkey Stearnes
            Harry Stovey
            Mule Suttles
            Don Sutton
            Ezra Sutton
            Bill Terry
            Sam Thompson
            Luis Tiant
            Joe Torre
            Cristobal Torriente
            Alan Trammell
            Pie Traynor
            Quincy Trouppe
            Dazzy Vance
            Arky Vaughan
            Rube Waddell
            Honus Wagner
            Bobby Wallace
            Ed Walsh
            Paul Waner
            John M. Ward
            Willie Wells
            Zack Wheat
            Lou Whitaker
            Deacon White
            Hoyt Wilhelm
            Billy Williams
            Smoky Joe Williams
            Ted Williams
            Jud Wilson
            Dave Winfield
            George Wright
            Early Wynn
            Jimmy Wynn
            Carl Yastrzemski
            Cy Young
            Robin Yount
            Iso Abe
            Doc Adams
            Mel Allen
            Walter Alston
            Sparky Anderson
            Red Barber
            Ed Barrow
            Buzzue Bavasi
            Ed Bolden
            Alexander Cartwright
            O. P. Caylor
            Henry Chadwick
            Frank Chance
            Charlie Commiskey
            Charles Conlon
            Tom Connolly
            Bobby Cox
            Jim Creighton
            Jack Dunn
            Leo Durocher
            Al Munro Elias
            Billy Evans
            Bob Ferguson
            Rube Foster
            Ford Frick
            Gus Greenlee
            Clark Griffith
            Ned Hanlon
            Vic Harris
            Whitey Herzog
            William Hulbert
            Miller Huggins
            Ban Johnson
            Tetsuharu Kawakami
            Bill Klem
            Kenesaw Landis
            Tommy Lasorda
            Al Lopez
            Connie Mack
            Larry MacPhail
            Joe McCarthy
            John McGraw
            Bill McKechnie
            Marvin Miller
            Walter O'Malley
            Buck O'Neill
            Dickey Pearce
            Cum Posey
            A. J. Reach
            Francis Richter
            Branch Rickey
            Phil Rizzuto
            Jacob Ruppert
            Vin Scully
            Frank Selee
            Ben Shibe
            Matsutaro Shoriki
            Billy Southworth
            Al Spalding
            Alfred Spink
            J. G. T. Spink
            Casey Stengel
            C. I. Taylor
            Kazuto Tsuruoka
            Bill Veeck
            Earl Weaver
            George Weiss
            Sol White
            J. L. Wilkinson
            Dick Williams
            Harry Wright
            Last edited by jalbright; 10-22-2011, 09:52 AM.
            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


            • #7
              The complete list of eligible players:
              Adams , Babe
              Adams , Bobby
              Adams , Sparky
              Aguilera , Rick
              Allen , Johnny
              Alou , Jesus
              Alou , Matty
              Alou, Felipe
              Altrock , Nick
              Aparicio, Luis
              Archer , Jimmy
              Arlett , Buzz
              Austin , Jimmy
              Avila, Bobby
              Bailey , Bob 
              Baines , Harold
              Baker , Dusty
              Bancroft , Dave
              Bando, Sal
              Barry , Jack
              Bartell , Dick
              Battin , Joe
              Bauer , Hank
              Baylor , Don
              Beaumont , Ginger
              Beck , Rod
              Beckert, Glenn
              Beckley , Jake
              Bedrosian , Steve
              Belanger , Mark
              Bell , Buddy
              Bell , George
              Bender , Chief
              Benton , Larry
              Berg , Moe
              Bergen , Marty
              Berger , Wally
              Berry , Charlie
              Bibby , Jim 
              Bichette , Dante
              Bigbee , Carson
              Billingham , Jack
              Bishop , Max
              Blackwell , Ewell
              Blades , Ray
              Blair , Paul
              Blass , Steve
              Blue , Lu
              Blue , Vida
              Bluege , Ossie
              Bodie , Ping
              Boley , Joe
              Bond , Tommy
              Bonds , Barry
              Bonds , Bobby
              Bonilla , Bobby
              Boone, Bob
              Bottomley , Jim
              Bowa , Larry
              Boyer , Clete
              Bradley , Bill
              Brecheen , Harry
              Breitenstein , Ted
              Brewer , Jim 
              Bridges , Tommy
              Brock, Lou
              Browning , Pete
              Browning , Tom
              Bruton, Bill
              Buckner , Bill
              Buhner , Jay
              Burdette , Lew
              Burgess , Smoky  
              Burns , George J.
              Burroughs , Jeff
              Bush  , Joe
              Bush , Donie
              Bush , Guy
              Butler , Brett
              Cadore , Leon
              Camilli , Dolph
              Caminiti , Ken
              Camnitz , Howie
              Campaneris , Bert
              Campbell , Bill
              Candelaria , John
              Candiotti , Tom
              Canseco , Jose
              Cardenal , Jose
              Cardenas , Leo 
              Carrasquel. Chico 
              Carrigan , Bill
              Carroll, Clay
              Carter , Joe
              Case , George
              Cash , Dave
              Cash, Norm
              Cavaretta , Phil
              Cedeno , Cesar
              Cepeda , Orlando
              Cey , Ron
              Chandler , Spud
              Chapman , Ben
              Chapman , Ray
              Chapman , Sam
              Chase , Hal
              Chesbro , Jack
              Cicotte , Eddie
              Cissell , Bill
              Clark , Jack
              Clark , Watty
              Clark , Will
              Clarkson , Bus
              Clemens, Roger
              Clift, Harlond
              Coakley , Andy
              Colavito, Rocky
              Coleman , Vince
              Collins , Shano
              Combs , Earle
              Concepcion , Dave
              Conroy , Wid
              Coombs , Jack
              Cooper , Andy
              Cooper , Mort
              Cooper , Walker
              Cooper , Wilbur
              Courtney , Clint
              Cox , Billy
              Crandall , Doc
              Crandall, Del
              Cravath , Gavvy
              Criger , Lou
              Critz , Hughie
              Cross , Lave
              Crowder , Al 
              Cruise , Walt
              Cruz , Jose
              Cuccinello , Tony
              Cummings , Candy
              Cuyler , Kiki
              Dandridge , Ray
              Danning , Harry
              Dark , Alvin
              Darling , Ron
              Daubert , Jake
              Daulton , Darren
              Davis , Chili
              Davis , Curt
              Davis , Eric
              Davis , Harry
              Davis , Mark
              Davis , Spud
              Day , Leon
              DeCinces, Doug
              Dempsey , Rick
              Denny , John
              Dent , Bucky
              Derringer , Paul
              Deshaies , Jim 
              DiMaggio , Dom
              Dinneen , Bill
              Doak , Bill
              Donaldson, John
              Donlin , Mike
              Donovan , Bill
              Dooin , Red
              Downing, Bryan
              Doyle , Jack 
              Doyle , Larry
              Drabek , Doug
              Dropo , Walt
              Duffy , Hugh
              Dugan , Joe
              Dunlap , Fred
              Dunston , Shawon
              Dykes , Jimmy
              Dykstra , Lenny
              Earnshaw , George
              Easter, Luke
              Edwards , Hank
              Ehmke , Howard
              Eisenreich , Jim 
              Elberfeld , Kid
              Elliott , Bob
              Elliott , Jumbo
              Ellis , Dock
              Enatsu , Yutaka
              Ennis, Del
              Ens , Jewel
              Erskine , Carl
              Evans , Darrell
              Evers , Johnny
              Face, Roy
              Fairly , Ron
              Falkenberg , Cy
              Fernandez , Sid
              Fernandez , Tony
              Ferrell , Rick
              Fielder , Cecil
              Fingers , Rollie
              Finley , Chuck
              Fitzsimmons , Freddie
              Flanagan , Mike
              Fletcher , Art
              Flood , Curt
              Fonseca , Lew
              Forsch, Bob
              Foster , Eddie
              Foster , George
              Franco , John
              Fraser , Chick
              Fregosi , Jim
              Furillo , Carl
              Gaetti , Gary
              Galan , Augie
              Galarraga , Andres
              Garner , Phil
              Garver, Ned
              Garvey , Steve
              Gelbert , Charlie
              Gibson , Kirk
              Gleason , Kid
              Gomez , Lefty
              Gonzalez , Mike
              Gooden , Dwight
              Gowdy , Hank
              Grace , Mark
              Grant , Eddie
              Grantham , George
              Greenwell , Mike
              Griffey, Sr, Ken
              Grimes , Burleigh
              Grimm , Charlie
              Grissom , Marv
              Groat, Dick
              Gromek , Steve
              Grove , Orval
              Guerrero , Pedro
              Guidry, Ron
              Guillen , Ozzie
              Gullickson , Bill
              Gustine , Frank
              Haas , Mule
              Haddix, Harvey
              Hafey , Chick
              Hahn , Noodles
              Haines , Jesse
              Hallahan , Bill
              Harder , Mel
              Hargrave , Bubbles
              Hargrove , Mike
              Harrah , Toby
              Harrelson , Bud
              Harris , Bucky
              Harris , Vic
              Hatton , Grady
              Hearn , Jim 
              Hebner , Richie
              Hegan , Jim
              Helms, Tommy
              Hemus , Solly
              Henderson , Dave
              Henke , Tom
              Henrich , Tommy
              Herman , Babe
              Hernandez , Willie
              Hershiser , Orel
              Herzog , Buck 
              Hickman , Jim
              Higgins , Mike
              Hiller , John
              Hinchman , Bill
              Hodges, Gil
              Holmes , Tommy
              Holtzman , Ken
              Honeycutt , Rick
              Hooper , Harry
              Hooton, Burt
              Horton , Willie
              Hough, Charlie
              Houtteman , Art
              Howard , Frank
              Howard, Elston
              Hoy , Dummy
              Hoyt , Waite
              Hrabosky , Al
              Hrbek , Kent
              Huggins , Miller
              Hunter , Catfish
              Hurst , Bruce
              Hutchinson , Fred
              Irwin , Charlie
              Jackman , Will
              Jackson , Sonny
              Jensen , Jackie
              John , Tommy
              Johnson , Bob
              Johnson , Davey
              Johnson , Judy
              Jones , Charley
              Jones , Doug
              Jones , Fielder
              Jones , Sam P.
              Jordan , Tim
              Jorgenson , Mike
              Judge , Joe
              Jurges , Billy
              Kaat, Jim
              Kamm , Willie
              Kawakami , Tetsuharu
              Kell , George
              Keltner , Ken
              Kennedy , Terry
              Kerr , Dickie
              Kessinger , Don
              Key , Jimmy
              Kile , Darryl
              Killefer , Bill
              Kilroy , Matt
              Kinder , Ellis
              Kingman , Dave
              Klein , Chuck
              Kling , Johnny
              Kluszewski, Ted
              Knabe , Otto
              Knight , Ray
              Koosman , Jerry
              Kremer , Ray
              Kress , Red
              Kruk , John
              Krukow , Mike
              Kuenn, Harvey
              Kuhel , Joe
              Kuzava , Bob
              Lange , Bill
              Lanier , Hal
              Lansford , Carney
              Larkin , Barry
              Larkin , Henry
              Larsen, Don
              Latham , Arlie
              Lavagetto , Cookie
              Law, Vern
              Lazzeri , Tony
              Leach , Freddy
              Leach , Tommy
              Lee , Bill
              Lee , Bill (Spaceman)
              Leever , Sam
              Lemon , Chet
              Leonard , Dennis
              Leonard , Emil (Dutch)
              Lewis , Duffy
              Lewis, Buddy
              Lindstrom , Freddie
              Lobert , Hans
              Lockman , Whitey
              Lolich, Mickey
              Lollar, Sherm
              Lombardi , Ernie
              Lonborg , Jim
              Long , Herman
              Lopat , Ed
              Lopes , Davey
              Lopez , Al
              Lowe , Bobby
              Lowenstein , John
              Lucas , Red
              Lundy , Dick
              Luque , Dolf
              Luzinski, Greg
              Lyle , Sparky
              Lynn , Fred 
              Lyons , Denny
              Madlock , Bill
              Maglie , Sal
              Maloney, Jim
              Mancuso , Gus
              Manush , Heinie
              Maranville , Rabbit
              Marberry , Firpo
              Marion , Marty
              Maris, Roger
              Marquard , Rube
              Marshall , Mike G.
              Martin , Morrie
              Martin , Pepper
              Martinez , Dennis
              Martinez, Edgar
              Mathews , Bobby
              Mattingly , Don
              May , Lee
              Mays , Carl
              Mazeroski , Bill
              McAleer , Jimmy
              McCarthy , Tommy
              McCarver , Tim
              McCormick , Frank
              McCormick , Jim
              McDaniel , Lindy
              McDougald, Gil
              McGowan , Bill
              McGraw , Tug
              McGriff, Fred
              McGwire, Mark
              McInnis , Stuffy
              McLain , Denny
              McLean , Larry
              McMahon, Don
              McManus , Marty
              McMillan, Roy
              McNally , Dave
              McVey , Cal
              Meadows , Lee
              Messersmith , Andy
              Meusel , Bob
              Miksis , Eddie
              Milan , Clyde
              Millan , Felix
              Miller , Bing
              Miller , Dots
              Miller , Hack
              Mitchell , Kevin
              Monday , Rick
              Money , Don
              Monroe , Bill
              Montgomery , Jeff
              Moon, Wally
              Moore , Jo-Jo
              Moore , Terry
              Moran , Pat
              Morris , Jack
              Mostil , Johnny
              Mota, Manny
              Mulcahy , Hugh
              Mullane , Tony
              Mungo , Van
              Munson , Thurman
              Murcer , Bobby
              Murphy , Dale
              Murphy , Danny
              Murray , Red
              Myer , Buddy
              Myers , Randy
              Nehf , Art
              Nettles , Graig
              Newcombe , Don
              Newsom , Bobo
              Nicholson , Bill
              Niekro , Joe
              Northey , Ron
              O'Doul , Lefty
              Oeschger , Joe
              O'Farrell , Bob
              O'Leary , Charlie
              Oliva, Tony
              Oliver , Al
              O'Neill , Paul
              O'Neill , Steve
              O'Neill , Tip
              Orr , Dave
              Pabor , Charlie
              Pafko , Andy
              Palmeiro , Rafael
              Parker , Dave
              Parrish , Lance
              Parrish , Larry
              Pascual, Camilo
              Paskert , Dode
              Pearson , Monte
              Peckinpaugh , Roger
              Peitz , Heinie
              Pena , Tony
              Pendleton , Terry
              Pennock , Herb
              Perdue , Hub
              Perez , Tony
              Perkins , Cy
              Perranoski , Ron
              Perry , Jim
              Pesky , Johnny
              Petrocelli, Rico
              Phillippe , Deacon 
              Phillips , Tony
              Pierce , Billy
              Pike , Lip
              Piniella, Lou
              Pinson, Vada
              Pipp , Wally
              Podres, Johnny
              Poles , Spotswood
              Porterfield , Bob
              Powell , Boog
              Power , Vic
              Pruett , Hub
              Puckett , Kirby
              Puhl , Terry
              Quinn , Jack
              Quisenberry , Dan
              Randolph , Willie
              Raschi , Vic
              Raymond , Bugs
              Reardon , Jeff
              Redding , Dick
              Reiser , Pete
              Remsen , Jack
              Remy , Jerry
              Reynolds , Allie
              Rice , Del
              Rice , Jim 
              Rice , Sam
              Richard, J R
              Richardson , Bobby
              Richardson , Hardy
              Righetti , Dave
              Ring , Jimmy
              Ritchey , Claude
              Rivers , Mickey
              Rixey , Eppa
              Robertson , Dave
              Roe , Preacher
              Rolfe , Red
              Rommel , Eddie
              Root , Charlie
              Rosen, Al
              Rucker , Nap
              Rudolph , Dick
              Ruel , Muddy
              Russell , Bill
              Ryan  , Jimmy
              Saberhagen , Bret
              Sain , Johnny
              Samuel , Juan
              Sanguillen , Manny
              Sauer , Hank
              Sax , Steve
              Schacht , Al
              Schaefer , Germany
              Schalk , Ray
              Schang , Wally
              Schoendienst , Red
              Schreckengost , Ossie
              Schulte , Frank
              Scott , Everett
              Scott , George
              Scott , Jack
              Scott , Mike
              Selkirk , George
              Severeid , Hank
              Sewell , Joe
              Sewell , Luke
              Sewell , Rip
              Seymour , Cy
              Shantz, Bobby
              Sherdel , Bill
              Shocker , Urban
              Short , Chris
              Siebert , Sonny
              Sievers , Roy
              Simmons, Curt
              Singleton , Ken
              Sisti , Sibby
              Smalley , Roy
              Smith , Earl
              Smith , Lee
              Smith , Lonnie
              Smith , Sherry
              Sparks , Tully
              Speier, Chris
              Stahl , Jake
              Stanky , Eddie
              Stanley , Mickey
              Staub , Rusty
              Steinbach , Terry
              Steinfeldt , Harry
              Stephens , Vern
              Stephenson , Riggs
              Stewart , Dave
              Stieb , Dave
              Stottlemyre , Mel
              Strawberry , Darryl
              Street , Gabby
              Suhr , Gus
              Sukeforth , Clyde
              Sundberg , Jim
              Sutcliffe , Rick
              Sutter , Bruce
              Sweeney , Bill
              Tannehill , Jesse
              Tartabull , Danny
              Taylor , Ben
              Tebbetts , Birdie
              Tekulve, Kent
              Templeton , Garry
              Tenace , Gene
              Tenney , Fred
              Thevenow , Tommy
              Thomas , Ira
              Thomson , Bobby
              Thornton , Andre
              Tiernan , Mike
              Tinker , Joe
              Tobin , Jim
              Toney , Fred
              Torgeson, Earl
              Torrez , Mike
              Travis, Cecil
              Trout , Dizzy
              Trucks , Virgil
              Tudor , John 
              Turner , Terry
              Uhle , George
              Valentine , Ellis
              Valenzuela , Fernando
              Valo , Elmer
              Van Haltren , George
              Vander Meer , Johnny
              Veach , Bobby
              Vernon , Mickey
              Viola , Frank
              Walberg , Rube
              Walker , Harry
              Wallach , Tim
              Walters , Bucky
              Wambsganss , Bill
              Waner , Lloyd
              Warfield , Frank
              Warneke , Lon
              Watson , Bob 
              Weiss , Walt
              Welch , Bob
              Welch , Mickey
              Wells , David
              Werber , Billy
              Wertz, Vic
              West , Sam
              Westrum , Wes
              White , Sol
              White , Will 
              White, Frank
              Whitehill , Earl
              Williams , Cy
              Williams , Ken
              Williamson , Ned
              Willis , Vic
              Wills, Maury
              Wilson , Hack
              Wilson , Jim
              Wilson , Jimmie
              Wilson , Willie
              Witt , Whitey
              Wood , Joe
              Wood , Wilbur
              Wright , Glenn
              Wyatt , Whit 
              Yamamoto , Koji
              Yeager , Steve
              Yerkes , Steve
              York , Rudy
              Young , Pep
              Youngs , Ross
              Zachary , Tom
              Zimmer , Chief
              The complete list of eligible contributors:
              Alou , Felipe
              Ashford, Emmet
              Autry, Gene
              Bancroft , Frank
              Barlick, Al
              Berger , Sy
              Bouton , Jim
              Brickhouse , Jack
              Buck , Jack 
              Bulkely , Morgan
              Busch , Augie
              Cambria , Joe
              Campbell , Jim
              Canel, Buck
              Caray , Skip
              Caray, Harry
              Carrigan, Bill
              Chandler, Happy
              Chylak , Nestor
              Conlan , Jocko
              Cooper , Andy
              Cummings , Candy
              Dark , Alvin
              Davids , Bob 
              Dinneen , Bill
              Doubleday , Abner
              Doucet , Jacques
              Dreyfuss , Barney
              Dyer , Eddie
              Dykes , Jimmy
              Feller, Sherm
              Fetzer, John
              Flood , Curt
              Foster , John B.
              Fowler, Bud
              Fregosi , Jim
              Fullerton , Hugh
              Gaston , Cito
              Giles , Warren
              Gillick , Pat
              Gleason , Kid
              Gonzalez , Mike
              Gowdy , Curt
              Grimm, Charlie
              Haak , Howie
              Haney , Fred
              Harridge, Willie
              Harris , Bucky
              Harvey, Doug
              Harwell, Ernie
              Hemond , Roland
              Heydler, John
              Hillerich , John
              Hodges, Gil
              Hodges, Russ
              Houk , Ralph
              Howsam, Bob
              Hubbard , Cal
              Hutchinson , Fred
              Jobe , Frank
              Johnson, Davey
              Kaat , Jim
              Krichell, Paul
              Kuenn , Harvey
              Kuhn , Bowie
              Lanier , Hal
              Lanigan, Ernest
              Lardner , Ring
              LaRussa , Tony
              Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W.
              Luque , Dolf
              MacPhail, Lee
              Manley , Effa
              Martin  , Billy
              Mauch , Gene
              McCarthy , Tommy
              McCarver, Tim
              McGowan, Bill
              Mills , A. G.
              Mizuhara, Shigeru
              Moran , Pat
              Murnane, Tim
              Murtaugh, Danny
              Mutrie , Jim
              Navin , Frank
              Neft , David
              Nelson , Lindsey
              Norworth, Jack
              O'Day, Hank
              O'Doul, Lefty
              O'Neill, Steve
              Osborn , Frank
              Palmer , Pete
              Pasquel, Jorge
              Patkin, Max
              Pesky , Johnny
              Piniella, Lou
              Pompez , Alex 
              Pulliam, Harry
              Ramirez, Felo
              Reese , Jimmie
              Rice, Grantland
              Richards, Paul
              Ritter , Lawrence
              Robinson , Wilbert
              Schoendienst, Red
              Schuerholtz , John
              Selig , Bud
              Sewell , Luke
              Sheppard, Bob
              Smith, Red
              Stallings , George
              Steinbrenner, George
              Street, Gabby
              Tanner , Chuck
              Thayer , Ernest
              Tyson, Ty
              Uecker , Bob
              van der Ahe, Chris
              Virdon, Bill
              Warfield , Frank
              Weyer , Lee
              Wilson , Horace
              Wrigley, Phil
              Yawkey, Tom
              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


              • #8
                My ballot
                1. Barry Bonds
                2. Barry Larkin
                3. Sal Bando
                4. Will Clark
                5. Hugh Duffy
                6. Tony Mullane
                7. Graig Nettles
                8. Bobby Bonds
                9. Willie Randolph
                10. Bruce Sutter
                11. Dan Quisenberry
                12. Chino Smith

                1. Tony LaRussa
                2. David Neft
                3. Pat Gillick
                4. George Steinbrenner
                5. Shigeru Mizuhara

                On the contributor side, Alex Pompez goes off the ballot to make room for Tony LaRussa. He goes in at the top. There are three new player candidates, in spots 1, 2 and 4: Barry Bonds, Barry Larkin and Will Clark.

                My queue:
                Players: Darrell Evans, Yutaka Enatsu and Bus Clarkson
                Contributors: John Scheurholtz, Bucky Harris, and Alex Pompez
                Last edited by jalbright; 10-10-2011, 03:33 AM.
                Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


                • #9

                  1. Barry Bonds
                  2. Barry Larkin
                  3. Sal Bando
                  4. Kirby Puckett
                  5. Urban Shocker
                  6. Thurman Munson
                  7. Will Clark
                  8. Hugh Duffy
                  9. Dale Murphy
                  10. Charley Jones
                  11. Bruce Sutter
                  12. Lip Pike


                  1. David Neft
                  2. George Steinbrenner
                  3. Alex Pompez
                  4. Pat Gillick
                  5. Billy Martin

                  Contributor queue: Tony LaRussa, Shigeru Mizuhara, Jocko Conlan, Cal Hubbard, Lefty O'Doul

                  Player queue: Wally Schang, Jake Beckley, Hardy Richardson, Chino Smith


                  • #10

                    1. Barry Bonds
                    2. Barry Larkin
                    3. Lou Brock
                    4. Jake Beckley
                    5. Tony Mullane
                    6. Will Clark
                    7. Ray Dandridge
                    8. Luis Aparicio
                    9. Eppa Rixey
                    10. Billy Pierce
                    11. Rafael Palmeiro
                    12. Sam Rice


                    1. Harry Caray
                    2. Tony LaRussa
                    3. David Neft
                    4. John Schuerholz
                    5. Bob Uecker


                    • #11
                      Ballot 2009:
                      1 Barry Bonds
                      2 Barry Larkin
                      3 Bret Saberhagen
                      4 Dick Lundy
                      5 Darrell Evans
                      6 Urban Shocker
                      7 Rafael Palmeiro
                      8 Will Clark
                      9 Don Newcombe
                      10 Graig Nettles
                      11 Bert Campaneris
                      12 Billy Pierce

                      1 Tony LaRussa
                      2 Johnny Pesky
                      3 Pat Gillick
                      4 John Schierholtz
                      5 Shigeru Mizuhara
                      Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)


                      • #12
                        1. Barry Bonds
                        2. Barry Larkin
                        3. Fred McGriff
                        4. Rafael Palmeiro - I find it hard to believe McGwire skated in and this 500/3000 man is on so few ballots as of yet (unless of course those ballots also bypassed McGwire)
                        5. Tommy Leach
                        6. Lou Brock
                        7. Will Clark
                        8. Frank Howard
                        9. Orlando Cepeda
                        10. Tony Perez
                        11. Johnny Evers
                        12. Ray Dandridge

                        of this year: Darrell Evans

                        back soon: Sal Bando, Vada Pinson

                        in the wings: Dave bancroft, Maranville, Puckett, Larry Doyle, Bob Elliott, Dale Murphy, Oliva, Shocker, Willis and Tommy John to name a few or make that a bunch.

                        1. Red Smith
                        2. Tommy McCarthy
                        3. Doug Harvey
                        4. Shigeru Mizuhara
                        5. Pat Gillick


                        • #13
                          1. Barry Bonds
                          2. Barry Larkin
                          3. Kirby Puckett
                          4. Fred McGriff
                          5. Burleigh Grimes
                          6. Luis Aparicio
                          7. Lefty Gomez
                          8. Eppa Rixey
                          9. Jake Beckley
                          10. Lou Brock
                          11. Ray Dandridge
                          12. Tony Perez

                          1. Bucky Harris
                          2. Ernie Harwell
                          3. Doug Harvey
                          4. George Steinbrenner
                          5. Red Smith
                          Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                          Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                          Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                          Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                          Robin Bill Ernie JEDI


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
                            4. Rafael Palmeiro - I find it hard to believe McGwire skated in and this 500/3000 man is on so few ballots as of yet (unless of course those ballots also bypassed McGwire)
                            It may not satisfy you, but since my approach is based on Wins Above Average rather than WAR, the fact McGwire had 240 of his 635 runs above replacement falling between average and replacement while Palmiero had 391 of his 665 runs in those categories is a reason for distinuguishing between the two.
                            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by jalbright View Post
                              It may not satisfy you, but since my approach is based on Wins Above Average rather than WAR, the fact McGwire had 240 of his 635 runs above replacement falling between average and replacement while Palmiero had 391 of his 665 runs in those categories is a reason for distinuguishing between the two.
                              That's fair enough. I have McGwire 8 and Palmeiro 19 all time at 1B (Clark is 20 FWIW).


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