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2009 Best of Baseball election thread

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  • #16
    Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
    4. Rafael Palmeiro - I find it hard to believe McGwire skated in and this 500/3000 man is on so few ballots as of yet (unless of course those ballots also bypassed McGwire)
    Why him but not Jake Beckley or Sam Rice? All three were consistent, durable hitters who put up big career numbers but were never great. Both Beckley and Rice when translated to 162 game schedules had well over 3000 hits and both were so close to 3000 when they retired that they would have gotten over 3000 hits if it had been important at the time.

    I see you also have Lou Brock on your ballot, so I assume milestone numbers factor in to a degree for you.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
      Why him but not Jake Beckley or Sam Rice? All three were consistent, durable hitters who put up big career numbers but were never great. Both Beckley and Rice when translated to 162 game schedules had well over 3000 hits and both were so close to 3000 when they retired that they would have gotten over 3000 hits if it had been important at the time.

      I see you also have Lou Brock on your ballot, so I assume milestone numbers factor in to a degree for you.
      I guess they would be somewhere in the mix. I think Palmeiro is comfortably above either of them. Beckley I have @ 31 among 1B. Rice might be my # 40 RF IIRC. Some of my balloting is a knee jerk placement where a lot of the players left are the NLers, short career, long career limited peak guys so you see a Brock SB records etc or 500/3000 and put them on. Typically I don't think round numbers matter or are a litmus test after all I do have McGriff up there.

      Comment


      • #18
        1 Lou Brock
        2 Barry Bonds
        3 Barry Larkin
        4 Fred McGriff
        5 Eppa Rixey
        6 Will Clark
        7 Luis Aparicio
        8 Sal Bando
        9 Tony Mullane
        10 Urban Schocker
        11 Billy Pierce
        12 Burleigh Grimes

        Comment


        • #19
          So far, we have the votes of all but two who voted in last election: JW and dogdaze. If either or both have not voted by Monday, I will PM them. We would elect two player candidates without any further participation, given the enormous lead they hold over the rest of the field. It is possible we could elect three players with a mere nine voters. However, the contributor ballot is in serious jeopardy at this point: we're still at seven voters, and it looks quite possible no one can be elected with less than 10 votes. If that happens, I'm shutting down that part of the ballot on the grounds of insufficient interest. Fortunately, 2010 only offers Larry Bowa and Andy Messersmith as scheduled to become newcomers to the ballot, while 2011 offers Bob Watson in that position. Really, we're probably only losing shots at electing guys currently on the ballot if we do have a shutdown of the contributors elections.

          On a brighter note, there are new players scheduled to join the ballot. They are:
          Biggio , Craig
          Brown , Kevin
          Johnson , Randy
          Morris , Hal
          Rijo , Jose
          Stottlemyre , Todd
          I see two names who will be at the top of my ballot, and that one of the guys I dropped from the ballot in the past few elections will be able to come back.
          Last edited by jalbright; 10-14-2011, 12:29 PM.
          Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
          Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
          A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

          Comment


          • #20
            Kevin Brown is an intriguing candidate ... both in terms of how well he fares in WAR and how polarizing his candidacy is within this community. I won't go too in-depth here, as this isn't the proper venue, but I feel that he'll reach my ballot sooner rather than later, but I'm unsure as to how high he'll place.

            As for the contributors, I shall once more stump for Frank Jobe.

            While I am sure many or most feel that I am far too aggressive with placing him atop my ballot, I think the number of players who were 'saved' by Jobe's groundbreaking surgery speaks volumes on his contribution to the game. The list includes several players that have or will garner serious consideration (and perhaps induction) in this very project - John Franco, Tim Hudson, Tommy John, Paul Molitor, John Smoltz, and Billy Wagner come to mind. Countless players have had the surgery in high school or college, allowing them a shot to reach professional baseball that they otherwise would not have enjoyed.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Domenic View Post
              Kevin Brown is an intriguing candidate ... both in terms of how well he fares in WAR and how polarizing his candidacy is within this community. I won't go too in-depth here, as this isn't the proper venue, but I feel that he'll reach my ballot sooner rather than later, but I'm unsure as to how high he'll place.

              As for the contributors, I shall once more stump for Frank Jobe.

              While I am sure many or most feel that I am far too aggressive with placing him atop my ballot, I think the number of players who were 'saved' by Jobe's groundbreaking surgery speaks volumes on his contribution to the game. The list includes several players that have or will garner serious consideration (and perhaps induction) in this very project - John Franco, Tim Hudson, Tommy John, Paul Molitor, John Smoltz, and Billy Wagner come to mind. Countless players have had the surgery in high school or college, allowing them a shot to reach professional baseball that they otherwise would not have enjoyed.
              Countless fans enjoy Jack Norworth's Take Me Out to the Ballgame every 7th inning of every game. Why should Jobe get a nod over him? One can argue Norworth's influence is much more far reaching than Jobe.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
                Countless fans enjoy Jack Norworth's Take Me Out to the Ballgame every 7th inning of every game. Why should Jobe get a nod over him? One can argue Norworth's influence is much more far reaching than Jobe.
                Somewhere between one-hundred and fifty and three-hundred Major Leaguers have had Tommy John Surgery and were able to re-start their careers, to varying degrees of success. Without Jobe's medical advancements, most of these players would never have been able to play in the Majors again. As per Baseball Prospectus, between 2002 and 2003 a tick over 10% of pitchers to appear in a game had had the procedure. That's a fairly significant portion of players.

                Beyond the Majors, it's sort of a foggy area to see how many players are having the procedure. However, James Andrews estimates that he performed over one-thousand procedures on amateur players over the past decade, and that a sizable majority of those players are currently playing professionally. That may not be a significant percentage of all minor leaguers, but it's worth considering.

                To me, when 10% of all Major League pitchers required Tommy John Surgery, Jobe's impact on the product on the field has been considerable. This is growing more and more true over time, as more and more players are having the procedure. And, again, these players may have never had a shot at the Majors, let alone the ability to return to the Majors.

                As for the Norworth-Jobe comparison, I feel that we're comparing two very different contributions. Norworth may put more butts in the seats (or maybe keep more butts in the seats over a long game), but Jobe is keeping players on the field.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Players:

                  1. Barry Larkin
                  2. Lou Brock
                  3. Luis Aparicio
                  4. Eppa Rixey
                  5. Wally Berger
                  6. Sal Bando
                  7. Bruce Sutter
                  8. Dan Quisenberry
                  9. Will Clark
                  10. Kirby Puckett
                  11. Ray Dandridge
                  12. Chino Smith

                  Contributors:

                  1. David Neft
                  2. Shigeru Mizuhara
                  3. Tony LaRussa
                  4. Alex Pompez
                  5. Doug Harvey

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    If we have no changes in ballots, we will require 10 contributor ballots to elect anyone. With 8 ballots, the top two are tied, which means the ninth vote cannot push one candidate far enough ahead to ensure election with a mythical 10th vote.
                    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Bummer. Maybe Brad will come out of the woodwork and post another vote. He seems to disappear around this time of the year.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I've sent a PM to JW, the only voter from last election yet to vote this time. Hopefully, we'll get his vote and meet the player quorum, at least. Also, his vote is critical to having a chance at saving the contributor ballot, IMHO.
                        Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                        Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                        A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Players

                          1. Barry Bonds
                          2. Barry Larkin
                          3. Rafael Palmeiro

                          4. Eppa Rixey
                          5. Will Clark
                          6. Joe Sewell
                          7. Rollie Fingers
                          8. Luis Aparicio
                          9. Wally Berger
                          10. Billy Pierce
                          11. Kirby Puckett
                          12. Graig Nettles

                          Darrell Evans joins Lee Smith and Dale Murphy on the backlog as we get into the thick of the steroid era candidates.

                          Contributors

                          1. John Schuerholz
                          2. George Steinbrenner
                          3. Davey Johnson
                          4. Billy Martin
                          5. Pat Gillick

                          No change. It would be a small travesty if we get this far into the Contributor Ballot only to abandon it three "years" before we go annual. I nominate we continue forward and get it up to date.
                          http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploa...-showalter.gif

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by J W View Post
                            It would be a small travesty if we get this far into the Contributor Ballot only to abandon it three "years" before we go annual. I nominate we continue forward and get it up to date.
                            Well, we wouldn't be electing anyone for four years. I'm not changing the rules we've worked under (would be able to be elected with at least 10 votes), and I don't like wasting my time or the time of others. If the interest isn't there, it's not there. That's a shame, I agree, but that's the way it is. If you want to do something about it, find us a tenth voter for the contributor ballot. BTW, that statement applies to anyone else who wants to see the contributor ballot continue until we go annual.

                            I didn't envision having this many contributor elections (I was originally going to have 1 every three years after 1985). I altered that plan. I also made it so that if mythical voter(s) who brought us up to 10 votes in an election wouldn't change the outcome, the outcome would stand and I wouldn't count such an election toward ending the ballot. We also scrambled through one election prior to the 2000's where the contributor ballot was on the chopping block. I've always tried to remind voters to vote, both in the thread and by PM. I've done my share to try and keep this ballot alive, but if there aren't enough voters to sustain it, I daresay I've earned the right to end it as well, and with no apologies.
                            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Didn't mean it as a dig at you Jim. You're the one doing the vast majority of the work and it's your call.

                              If anyone out there who's been reading these threads hasn't voted for contributors yet, please do!
                              http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploa...-showalter.gif

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by J W View Post
                                Didn't mean it as a dig at you Jim. You're the one doing the vast majority of the work and it's your call.

                                If anyone out there who's been reading these threads hasn't voted for contributors yet, please do!
                                Thanks. I'm sorry, but when somebody says I can't do something like shut down that part of the ballot under these circumstances, well, I tend, rightly or not, to take it a bit personally and react accordingly. I really hate to shut it down, but in truth, I hate to waste my time even more.
                                Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                                Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                                A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                                Comment

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