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2010 Best of Baseball election thread

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  • #16
    Shouldn't David Cone be eligible?

    Born in 1963, but I don't see him amongst the listed eligibles, and he hasn't been mentioned in the top newbies.

    Thanks.
    Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
    http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post
      Shouldn't David Cone be eligible?

      Born in 1963, but I don't see him amongst the listed eligibles, and he hasn't been mentioned in the top newbies.

      Thanks.
      You're right, and he now is going to be so listed.
      Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
      Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
      A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

      Comment


      • #18
        Ballot 2010:
        1 Randy Johnson
        2 Kevin Brown
        3 Craig Biggio
        4 Bret Saberhagen
        5 Dick Lundy
        6 Darrell Evans
        7 Rafael Palmeiro
        8 David Cone
        9 Don Newcombe
        10 Urban Shocker
        11 Graig Nettles
        12 Billy Pierce

        Contributors:
        1 Tony LaRussa
        2 Johnny Pesky
        3 Pat Gillick
        4 John Schierholtz
        5 Shigeru Mizuhara

        After doing a detailed analysis of starting pitchers, I came to one conclusion: Kevin Brown had an outstanding under the radar career.

        By the numbers, I can't help but put Kevin Brown #2 on my ballot. By WAR, Baseball Prospectus/Joe Dimino/my adjusted
        WARP/PA figures, and Fangraphs -FIP make Brown toast of the town compared to the current eligibles.
        Main argument against is the depth of 1990s starting pitchers. Plenty of 1970s hurlers were elected, including Rick Reuschel,
        Jim Palmer, and Don Sutton who are lower on my totem pole. PLEASE PLEASE CONSIDER BROWN! THANKS!

        Factoring all three measures, I show Saberhagen as moving a notch ahead of the remaining competition. Was dominate
        in the 1980s and was a quality hurler in the early 90s. Career value similar to remaining eligibles, but peak separates him for me.
        Please take a close look at his candidacy.

        Posting of top 15 seasons by leading candidates from the backlog:

        WAR seasons of 1 or greater.
        67.3 8.4 7.5 6.5 6.4 5.8 5.4 4.6 4.4 3.3 3.2 2.9 2.5 2.5 2.1 1.8 Brown
        57.2 8.6 7.3 7.0 6.7 5.0 3.5 3.4 3.3 2.8 2.6 2.3 1.8 1.5 1.4 0.0 Saberhagen
        58.1 8.5 6.7 6.6 5.8 4.6 4.2 3.7 3.7 3.3 2.8 2.6 1.8 1.6 1.2 1.0 Cone
        57.9 7.3 6.1 5.2 5.0 4.9 4.4 4.1 4.1 4.1 4.0 3.5 3.1 2.1 0.0 0.0 Newcombe
        55.9 7.6 7.0 5.6 5.4 5.4 5.3 4.7 4.4 4.1 3.2 1.6 1.6 0.0 0.0 0.0 Shocker
        52.4 6.9 6.9 6.2 5.4 5.2 5.0 3.5 3.2 2.5 2.3 1.9 1.2 1.2 1.1 0.0 Pierce
        55.0 8.4 7.6 6.2 6.2 5.3 4.7 4.7 3.4 3.3 2.7 1.5 1.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 Appier
        56.1 7.7 6.8 6.5 6.4 6.3 5.6 4.9 3.9 2.9 2.1 1.6 1.4 0.0 0.0 0.0 Stieb
        56.2 7.5 6.6 6.3 4.6 4.6 4.4 4.4 4.2 2.9 2.8 2.4 2.3 2.0 1.2 0.0 Finley
        51.8 8.1 7.7 7.3 7.0 5.4 4.9 3.6 3.5 3.1 1.2 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 Willis
        54 10.6 10.2 6.8 6.6 5.6 5.1 5.0 2.7 1.8 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 McCormick (54.5)
        50. 10.1 8.5 5.8 4.8 3.5 3.0 2.9 2.8 2.8 2.4 1.9 1.8 0.0 0.0 0.0 Cicotte (50.1)
        50.6 6.0 5.3 4.7 4.0 4.0 3.8 3.8 3.3 2.9 2.8 2.2 2.1 2.0 2.0 1.9 Rixey
        48. 11.7 5.4 4.4 3.8 3.7 3.3 3.1 2.9 2.7 2.6 2.2 1.6 1.2 0.0 0.0 Gooden (48.6)
        59.3 8.0 7.8 6.7 5.9 5.6 5.3 4.5 4.0 3.6 3.2 2.8 2.1 0.0 0.0 0.0 Mullane
        55.3 7.3 6.9 6.7 5.8 4.0 3.5 3.2 3.0 3.0 2.3 2.3 2.3 2.0 1.9 1.1 Hershiser
        53.0 8.8 7.0 6.4 4.7 3.9 3.8 3.7 3.5 3.5 2.3 2.1 1.6 1.6 0.0 0.0 Adams
        Newcombe estimated with negro league and war credit - reasonable approximation.
        McCormick and Mullane estimated with discounts to AA/UL play - quite tough to nail down.
        Rixey moves to 54.7 career WAR

        Interpretation of Joe Dimino's PA updated for revised Baseball Prospectus DERA figures.
        0.944 0.129 0.110 0.098 0.092 0.086 0.085 0.075 0.056 0.038 0.037 0.036 0.031 0.026 0.024 0.023 Brown
        0.841 0.141 0.107 0.100 0.096 0.082 0.050 0.049 0.041 0.040 0.035 0.035 0.024 0.024 0.017 0.000 Saberhagen
        0.929 0.122 0.098 0.095 0.093 0.083 0.080 0.075 0.075 0.056 0.051 0.035 0.032 0.021 0.013 0.000 Cone
        0.778 0.097 0.096 0.092 0.084 0.064 0.061 0.059 0.056 0.052 0.041 0.022 0.021 0.019 0.015 0.000 Newcombe
        0.767 0.110 0.098 0.085 0.076 0.072 0.071 0.059 0.058 0.057 0.040 0.023 0.017 0.001 0.000 0.000 Shocker
        0.769 0.108 0.087 0.085 0.078 0.074 0.061 0.051 0.043 0.043 0.036 0.031 0.025 0.019 0.018 0.010 Pierce
        0.828 0.125 0.103 0.096 0.089 0.081 0.076 0.066 0.062 0.051 0.034 0.023 0.021 0.000 0.000 0.000 Appier
        0.748 0.115 0.094 0.092 0.091 0.070 0.069 0.057 0.054 0.052 0.025 0.014 0.010 0.002 0.000 0.000 Stieb
        0.823 0.137 0.084 0.080 0.078 0.068 0.067 0.049 0.047 0.042 0.039 0.035 0.032 0.028 0.025 0.011 Finley
        0.665 0.094 0.087 0.085 0.078 0.073 0.058 0.046 0.037 0.036 0.025 0.022 0.012 0.010 0.000 0.000 Willis
        0.494 0.096 0.066 0.064 0.057 0.050 0.048 0.047 0.026 0.024 0.015 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 McCormick
        0.712 0.143 0.142 0.075 0.066 0.043 0.042 0.041 0.037 0.030 0.027 0.026 0.019 0.016 0.003 0.000 Cicotte
        0.782 0.093 0.078 0.072 0.066 0.054 0.053 0.050 0.047 0.042 0.041 0.039 0.039 0.038 0.036 0.033 Rixey
        0.747 0.182 0.086 0.059 0.057 0.054 0.053 0.053 0.049 0.040 0.039 0.034 0.023 0.006 0.006 0.006 Gooden
        0.412 0.084 0.079 0.050 0.048 0.043 0.035 0.023 0.018 0.016 0.014 0.002 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 Mullane
        0.744 0.110 0.109 0.096 0.085 0.059 0.045 0.037 0.036 0.030 0.028 0.028 0.026 0.025 0.016 0.015 Hershiser
        0.731 0.109 0.092 0.086 0.062 0.056 0.054 0.050 0.047 0.044 0.042 0.029 0.023 0.023 0.011 0.005 Adams
        Notes - Rixey vaults to .895 career

        Interpretation of Fangraphs -FIP.
        43.5 6.1 4.7 4.1 4.1 4.1 3.9 3.4 3.0 2.4 2.3 1.8 1.5 1.0 0.9 0.2 Brown
        34.1 5.5 4.5 3.8 2.9 2.9 2.7 2.5 1.8 1.7 1.7 1.5 1.1 0.9 0.6 0.0 Saberhagen
        32.9 3.7 3.7 3.5 3.2 3.0 2.9 2.7 2.7 2.4 1.9 1.4 1.1 0.6 0.0 0.0 Cone
        28.3 4.0 3.6 3.1 3.1 3.0 2.6 2.6 2.4 1.8 1.2 1.0 0.1 0.0 0.0 0.0 Newcombe
        22.8 4.4 3.3 2.4 2.3 2.3 1.7 1.7 1.4 1.4 0.8 0.8 0.2 0.0 0.0 0.0 Shocker
        30.9 4.3 3.8 3.7 3.6 3.4 3.3 1.7 1.7 1.5 1.3 1.1 0.7 0.4 0.3 0.3 Pierce
        30.4 4.9 3.9 3.5 3.5 3.3 3.0 2.8 2.2 1.5 1.0 0.5 0.2 0.0 0.0 0.0 Appier
        23.3 3.4 3.0 2.9 2.7 2.4 2.2 2.1 1.7 1.0 1.0 0.5 0.4 0.0 0.0 0.0 Stieb
        28.9 3.0 3.0 2.7 2.7 2.6 2.4 2.3 2.3 2.3 2.1 1.3 0.8 0.5 0.5 0.4 Finley
        23.2 4.0 3.2 3.2 2.6 2.2 1.9 1.7 1.4 1.3 1.2 0.3 0.2 0.0 0.0 0.0 Willis
        15.6 4.7 2.5 2.4 1.8 1.3 1.2 0.7 0.7 0.1 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 McCormick
        28.3 5.5 4.4 3.6 3.0 2.6 2.2 1.9 1.8 1.5 0.8 0.7 0.6 0.0 0.0 0.0 Cicotte
        32.3 3.5 3.1 2.8 2.8 2.7 2.6 2.4 2.2 2.1 2.0 1.5 1.2 1.2 1.1 1.0 Rixey
        30.0 6.4 5.3 3.4 3.0 2.6 2.5 1.8 1.7 1.2 1.0 0.8 0.4 0.0 0.0 0.0 Gooden
        24.0 4.4 4.3 3.7 2.6 2.2 1.7 1.5 1.4 1.2 0.7 0.2 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 Mullane
        22.4 3.8 3.7 3.1 2.7 2.4 1.9 1.3 1.2 1.0 0.9 0.3 0.2 0.0 0.0 0.0 Hershiser
        30.4 4.3 4.0 3.4 3.4 2.8 2.3 2.3 2.2 1.8 1.2 0.8 0.7 0.7 0.4 0.1 Adams
        Rixey jumps to 34.8

        WPA
        33.8 Brown
        28.9 Saberhagen
        25.6 Cone
        Newcombe
        Shocker
        51.8 Pierce
        26.9 Appier
        22.3 Stieb
        18.9 Finley
        Willis
        McCormick
        Cicotte
        Rixey
        21.1 Gooden
        Mullane
        17.6 Hershiser
        Adams

        Players post 1950 are analyzed by baseball-reference WPA, estimates made for previous seasons

        After Brown and Saberhagen, things become much cloudier, with personal methods of value causing large, but reasonable disagreement
        within the backlog. My personal rankings show Cone, Newcombe, Shocker, and Pierce as ballot worthy.

        Cone appears a nudge ahead of the remaining competition in WAR, PA, FIP, but it's quite close, and a tweak in system
        or the emphasis of Win Shares could keep Coney lost in the shuffle.

        I have spoken at length about Don Newcombe previous - a lot of assumptions place him on the ballot, understandable
        if no else likes him as well - glad jjpm74 thinks he's worthy, just not at this juncture.

        Shocker could easily be flipped with Pierce, deserves WWI credit, solid candidate, and groundswell of existing support by
        the electorate only enhances his placement, along with Pierce - whose WPA puts him above the remaining candidates.

        While the raw numbers show Kevin Appier as worthy of being included on my ballot and Chuck Finley to a lesser extent, I have
        subjectively bumped them down a few notches with the high volume of greater candidates from the 1990s.

        Glut of 1880s candidates Jim McCormick, Tony Mullane, Jim Whitney, and Charlie Buffinton all have virtues - difficult to
        assess whether they belong above the crop eligible - were the 1880s as impressive as the 1970s or 1990s, or is it a challenge
        of trying to approximate value in a game very different than today - John Clarkson, Tim Keefe, and Old Hoss Radbourn
        were no brainers for the project, and Bob Caruthers and Pud Galvin were also selected. Bobby Mathews longevity
        and Mickey Welch 300 victories earn them a nod of recognition, I just don't see them as quite as worthy.

        Dave Stieb, Vic Willis, Eddie Cicotte, Eppa Rixey, Doc Gooden, Orel Hershiser, and Babe Adams are all within the
        consideration set, but the standards for the Best of Baseball are tough, leaving them in the dust.

        Rixey's career is quite impressive, a notch ahead of underrated Jack Quinn, but his peak makes him fall short for me.
        Stieb's place among 1980s hurlers is elite - he may be overrlooked and due for a spot on ballot.

        Among the relief crowd, Bruce Sutter, Lee Smith, and Rollie Fingers are of interest, and Trevor Hoffman will be in the mix
        A convincing argument could move one of these guys into the near ballot queue.
        A couple fans of Dan Quisenberry - I'm just not seeing it, but loved his windup and delivery.
        Last edited by Jar of Flies; 10-25-2011, 04:44 PM.
        Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
        http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

        Comment


        • #19
          We've reached the 10 vote mark on both ballots, so we've reached the quorum mark. Here are the players which we'll add in 2011.
          Code:
          Belle , Albert
          Glavine , Tom
          Justice , David
          McDowell , Jack
          Maddux, Greg
          Moyer, Jamie
          Schilling, Curt
          Walker , Larry
          Wetteland , John
          I'll be adding Glavine, Maddux, Schilling and Walker to my ballot.

          On the contributor side, we'll add Bob Watson.
          Last edited by jalbright; 10-25-2011, 04:44 PM.
          Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
          Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
          A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post
            After doing a detailed analysis of starting pitchers, I came to one conclusion: Kevin Brown had an outstanding under the radar career.
            On paper, Kevin Brown is a clear HOFer. The problem is, he is also linked to PEDs and unlike someone like Clemens, the question, "is Kevin Brown still a HOFer without the use of PEDs" is much harder to answer which is what is keeping him off most ballots and also why I have him below rather than above Shocker.


            Dave Stieb, Vic Willis, Eddie Cicotte, Eppa Rixey, Doc Gooden, Orel Hershiser, and Babe Adams are all within the
            consideration set, but the standards for the Best of Baseball are tough, leaving them in the dust.
            Regarding Stieb, AG2004 did an excellent Keltner on him. Stieb is a tougher one to tie down given the brevity of his career. One other pitcher from that era that doesn't get enough attention is Frank Viola (even though he isn't a HOFer, IMO):

            Originally posted by AG2004 View Post
            I decided to do a Keltner List for Dave Stieb.

            Leading AL starters in win shares each year for four consecutive years (1982-85) is an impressive feat. True, Stieb's career wasn't that long. However, I didn't really see any long careers among pitchers of Stieb's time. That was certainly strange.

            During the middle 1970s, teams were changing from a four-man rotation to a five-man rotation. This would have created a great demand for new starters, and young pitchers would have been rushed into the rotation before their arms were ready. This would result in shorter careers and early peaks.

            So I checked to see if their peaks were early. Here's what I found.

            *Ron Guidry. Peak from 1977-81, his first five years as a regular.
            *Dave Stieb. Peak from 1981-1985. He started in June 1979, so these are full seasons 2-6.
            *Bret Saberhagen. Peak from 1985-1989, seasons 2-6.
            *Orel Hershiser. Peak from 1985-1989, seasons 2-6.
            *Frank Tanana. Peak from 1974-1978, his first five full seasons.
            *Fernando Valenzuela. Peak from 1981-1985, his first five full seasons.
            *Frank Viola. Peak from 1984-1988, his first five full seasons.
            *Dwight Gooden. Peak from 1984-88, his first five years in the bigs.
            *Jack Morris. Peak from 1983 to 1987. He's the exception, as these are years 5 to 9 as a full-time starter.

            Top pitchers who came along in the first decade after the change tended to have short careers and early peaks. However, top pitchers who came along in the late 80s and early 90s had longer careers, and their peaks tended to come in the middle of their career. They didn't have to be rushed in to the rotation, and their careers were more normal.

            When I made the list, I thought of Clemens as a later pitcher, but he made his debut in 1984. His five year-peak was 1986-1990, and those were his first five seasons as a full-time pitcher.

            The earliest that Clemens is claimed to have used steroids was 1996. He had 11 win shares in 1993, and 10 win shares in the 144-game 1995 season. After the game on August 1, 1996, Clemens was 4-11 with a 4.36 ERA. For the remainder of the season, he was 6-2 with a 2.09 ERA. In 1997, Clemens had 32 win shares, his best mark ever.

            Discount his post-August 1, 1996 performance, and Clemens ends up with about 237 win shares, with a five-year peak of 125, and a total of 85 in his three best seasons. He's another short-career pitcher with an early peak. Stieb's strike-adjusted 210-121-74 isn't quite that good, but his five-year peak and number of All-Star-type seasons easily separates him from the Saberhagen-Hershiser-Morris-Tanana group.

            Case to Consider: STIEB, Dave

            1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

            No. He received some first-place votes in Cy Young Voting in 1982, but he finished fourth. His contemporaries didn't rate him as the game's best pitcher - but few knew the value of sabermetrics.

            2. Was he the best player on his team?

            He led his team’s pitchers in win shares each year from 1981 through 1985, as well as in 1988 and 1990.

            3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

            He led all starting pitchers in the AL in win shares in 1982, 1983, 1984, and 1985, and all major league pitchers in 1982 and 1984. He was among the top five starters in the majors in win shares each season from 1981 to 1985.

            4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

            He was the best pitcher on the team when Toronto won the division by 2 games in 1985.

            5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?

            Yes, but not for very long; his last season as a full-time starter came at the age of 32.

            6. Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

            He is not the best player outside the BBFHOF.

            7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?

            By similarity scores: Virgil Trucks, Ken Holtzman, Bob Buhl, Rick Sutcliffe, Tommy Bridges, Kevin Appier, Fernando Valenzuela, Dave Stewart, Frank Viola, and Orel Hershiser. None are in the BBFHOF. However, Stieb’s career ERA+ of 122 is second among these eleven players; Bridges is first at 125.

            By career win shares, contemporary SP: Dennis Martinez 233, Jack Morris 225, STIEB 210, Orel Hershiser 210, Bret Saberhagen 193, Frank Viola 187. This isn’t BBFHOF territory, but we really don’t have any starting pitchers from Stieb’s generation in the Hall.

            Here, we’re adjusting peak totals to take the 1981 strike season into account. This causes his five-year peak to rise from 113 to 121 win shares.

            Best three seasons: Bret Saberhagen 75, STIEB 74, Ron Guidry 72, Frank Viola 71, Orel Hershiser 69, Frank Tanana 69, Fernando Valenzuela 68, Jack Morris 65. Stieb is the second best starter of his generation here.

            Best five consecutive seasons: STIEB 121, Orel Hershiser 102, Ron Guidry 101, Frank Viola 100, Bret Saberhagen 98, Frank Tanana 98, Fernando Valenzuela 97, Jack Morris 94. Stieb has, by far, the best peak of any starter in his generation.

            8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

            Stieb has a black ink total of 17 (119th), a gray ink total of 142 (108th), and a HOF Standards score of 27.0 (172nd). None of these are good.

            While Stieb is not in Cooperstown, he is a member of the Hall of Merit.

            9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

            Toronto’s Exhibition Stadium was a hitter’s park. Also, during his peak, the Blue Jays did not give him much run support, and that lowered his winning percentage.

            10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?

            No. Don Newcombe and Bucky Walters would be better pitchers outside the BBFHOF, but Stieb is close.

            11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

            He finished fourth in the 1984 Cy Young voting, but that was the only time he received at least 2% of the total possible vote. He led all AL pitchers in win shares in 1982 and 1984, and was tied with Bret Saberhagen, 24.43 win shares to 24.43 win shares, in 1985. He was second among AL pitchers in 1983, and third in 1981. That makes five Cy Young Award-type seasons in all.

            TSN did name him their AL pitcher of the year in 1982. He finished fourth in the Cy Young vote that year, which was the only time he received at least 2% of the total vote.

            12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

            He was an All-Star seven times, which is good for a pitcher. He was among the AL’s top five pitchers in six different seasons, which is also a good sign.

            13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

            A pitcher like Stieb at his peak could lead his team into the pennant race on a regular basis. The Blue Jays didn’t start contending until 1983, but they were one of the two expansion clubs of 1977, and it took them a while to be able to get the necessary support.

            14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

            Stieb was the first Blue Jay to pitch a no-hitter. He had some bad luck, as he’s also known for losing two no-hit bids at the end of the 1988 season with two outs in the ninth inning.

            15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

            As far as I can tell.

            CONCLUSION: Stieb is an interesting case. He was the best starting pitcher to debut between 1975 and 1983 (he came up in 1979), but his generation was probably the worst in major league history for producing starters. He might not have done well in Cy Young voting, but he made up for it in All-Star appearances.

            We have only two starters in the BBFHOF with fewer than 230 career win shares: Koufax and Dean. Both of them had exceptional peaks. While Stieb easily had the best peak of his generation, the next generation had three pitchers with better peaks: Roger Clemens, Greg Maddux, and Randy Johnson.

            I don’t know why starters of Stieb’s time had such low career win share totals; Frank Tanana, who came up in 1973, would top the list at 241. The middle 1970s was the period when the four-man rotation gave way to the five-man rotation, and this would have caused an increase demand for starters. We would get more young pitchers with high IP totals, and this would cause many of them to flame out early. If this line of reasoning is correct, it should show up in statistics: the majority of top starters from this era would peak early.

            Guess what? Most of the top pitchers of the late 1970s and 1980s had their five-year win share peaks very early in their careers. This was the case with Guidry, Stieb, Saberhagen, Hershiser, Tanana, Valenzuela, Viola, and Gooden. Jack Morris was the only one with a mid-career peak. Well, Dennis Martinez peaked later on, but he never had a season with 20 win shares. The top pitchers of the 1990s tended to have their peaks in mid-career, or at least they didn’t start their peaks until several years as a regular starter: Maddux, Johnson, Glavine, Smoltz, Martinez, and Schilling are all examples. Clemens is the exception here, as his peak came rather early.

            This indicates that pitchers of the Guidry-Stieb generation were worked too hard too early in their career. The switch from a four-man to five-man rotation led to reduced career win share totals for starting pitchers of Stieb’s era, and we need to take that into account.

            Since Stieb’s peak is easily the best among starters of his generation, and he’s also among the leaders in career value among that generation, Stieb is deserving of a spot in the BBFHOF.

            Comment


            • #21
              just bumping thread in hopes of getting more votes.
              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

              Comment


              • #22
                We stayed at 10 votes in both ballots, and elected Craig Biggio, Lou Brock and Randy Johnson among the players and Tony LaRussa among the contributors. We'll give the official player results first:

                Code:
                Player………………	votes	pts
                Johnson, Randy	10	120
                Biggio, Craig	10	106
                Brock, Lou	5	41
                Bando, Sal	5	40
                Rixey, Eppa	6	37
                Aparicio, Luis	5	34
                Brown, Kevin	4	31
                McGriff, Fred	3	28
                Palmiero, R	4	28
                Puckett, Kirby	5	26
                Beckley , Jake	4	25
                Shocker, Urban	4	24
                Mullane , Tony	3	20
                Berger , Wally	3	19
                Pierce, Billy	5	17
                Duffy , Hugh	3	15
                Dandridge, Ray	4	12
                Munson, Thurman	2	12
                Sutter, Bruce	3	11
                Nettles, Graig	3	10
                Randolph, W	2	10
                Grimes , B	2	9
                Saberhagen, B	1	9
                Evans, Darrell	2	8
                Leach , Tommy	1	8
                Lundy , Dick	1	8
                Quisenberry, D	2	7
                Sewell , Joe	1	7
                Bonds, Bobby	1	6
                Fingers, Rollie	1	6
                Gomez, Lefty	1	6
                Smith, Chino	3	6
                Cone, David	1	5
                Howard, Frank	1	5
                Cepeda, Orlando	1	4
                Murphy, Dale	1	4
                Newcombe, Don	1	4
                Perez, Tony	2	4
                Jones, Charley	1	3
                Evers, Johnny	1	2
                Rice, Sam	1	2
                Pike, Lip	1	1
                Now the contributor results:
                Code:
                Contributor…..	votes	pts
                LaRussa, Tony	8	28
                Neft, David	5	22
                Gillick, Pat	7	20
                Mizuhara, S	5	11
                Schuerhotlz, J	5	11
                Smith, Red	3	7
                Harvey, Doug	3	6
                Martin, Billy	3	6
                Pompez, Alex	2	6
                Caray, Harry	1	5
                Jobe, Frank	1	5
                Harris , Bucky	1	4
                McCarthy, Tommy	1	4
                O'Doul, Lefty	1	4
                Pesky, Johnny	1	4
                Harwell, Ernie	1	3
                Johnson, Davey	1	3
                Uecker, Bob	1	1
                Last edited by jalbright; 11-05-2011, 11:52 AM.
                Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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