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BBF Progressive HoF Election: 1903

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  • BBF Progressive HoF Election: 1903

    PLEASE READ BEFORE VOTING!

    Format and Rules
    For the sake of simplification, convenience, and continuity, we will adopt the rules currently employed by the BBWAA and apply them throughout, with the exception of modifications made for first five elections (and perhaps longer if necessary):

    Voting Rules: For at least the first five elections, voters may vote for between 0-15 candidates (the number will be eventually be cut to 10). A "None of the Above" option is available if you believe no one is worthy and you wish to submit a blank ballot. Votes will be made public, and voters are encouraged to post their ballots in the thread and not view results before voting. PLEASE LIMIT YOUR BALLOT TO 15 VOTES AT MOST. EXCESS VOTES MAY RESULT IN YOUR BALLOT BEING DISQUALIFIED.

    Thoughtfulness and Editing Ballots: Please review and thoughtfully consider the candidates before voting, and make sure you have accurately filled out your ballot before submitting. Requests for editing ballots after the fact will generally not be honored. Exceptions might be made if a voter accidentally voted for the wrong player or accidentally went over the voting limit (but I strongly encourage you to do your best to prevent either from happening).

    Required Support: Players receiving at least 75% support in an election will be elected. For the first five elections, a player must receive at least one vote to appear on the next ballot, though extra considerations may be made for players not receiving a vote in the first election. After the first five elections, players will need at least 5% support to stay on the ballot.

    Player Eligibility: Players eligible for an election will have last played at least 5 years prior to the election year and have appeared in at least 10 major league seasons. Players will remain on the ballot for 15 years, provided they continue to receive at least 5% of the vote.
    - Early Election Modifications: To be eligible for the first election, players must have played at least 7 seasons between 1871 and 1896. The next four elections will have an 8 year rule. Players from before this period, or who do not meet the 7 year requirement, or who are no longer eligible for the current election, will be eligible for the Veterans/Pioneers Committee, provided their last appearance was no later than 1883. Players eligible in the first election will be eligible for 15 years, regardless of when they retired, and provided they meet the minimum support requirements. The 5% rule is not in effect for the first five elections. During this time, players need to receive at least one vote to remain on the ballot (or at least one vote in the first two elections to make the third).

    Election Period: Elections will close exactly a week after starting. The next election might not commence for another day or two.


    1903 Guide
    There are 48 candidates on the 1903 ballot. First time eligible players last played in 1898.

    First Timers (14)
    Lou Bierbauer
    Jack Boyle
    Tom Brown
    Red Ehret
    Mike Griffin
    Bug Holliday
    Bill Joyce
    Matt Kilroy
    Billy Nash
    Billy Shindle
    Germany Smith
    Ed Stein
    Sam Thompson
    Walt Wilmot

    Holdovers (34)
    Code:
    Player			Year of Eligibility	High Support	Previous Year’s Support
    Ross Barnes		3rd			58.33%		58.33%
    Charlie Bennett		3rd			45.00%		33.33%
    Pete Browning		3rd			40.00%		37.50%
    Oyster Burns		3rd			4.17%		4.17%
    Bob Caruthers		3rd			30.00%		29.17%
    Charlie Comiskey	3rd			5.00%		4.17%
    Larry Corcoran		3rd			5.00%		4.17%
    Bob Ferguson		3rd			8.33%		8.33%
    Pud Galvin		3rd			70.83%		70.83%
    Jack Glasscock		3rd			25.00%		20.83%
    George Gore		3rd			45.00%		37.50%
    Ned Hanlon		3rd			5.00%		4.17%
    Paul Hines		3rd			65.00%		54.17%
    Charley Jones		3rd			4.17%		4.17%
    Denny Lyons		3rd			4.17%		4.17%
    Bobby Mathews		3rd			5.00%		4.17%
    Tommy McCarthy*		3rd			5.00%		0.00%
    Jim McCormick		3rd			5.00%		4.17%
    Cal McVey		3rd			20.00%		12.50%
    Levi Meyerle		3rd			4.17%		4.17%
    Tony Mullane		3rd			45.00%		33.33%
    Tip O’Neill		3rd			8.33%		8.33%
    Dave Orr		3rd			8.33%		8.33%
    Lip Pike		3rd			12.50%		12.50%
    Hardy Richardson	3rd			20.83%		20.83%
    Al Spalding		3rd			37.50%		37.50%
    Joe Start		3rd			35.00%		33.00%
    Harry Stovey		3rd			50.00%		45.83%
    Ezra Sutton		3rd			37.50%		37.50%
    John Ward		3rd			62.50%		62.50%
    Mickey Welch		3rd			25.00%		20.83%
    Deacon White		3rd			62.50%		62.50%
    Will White		3rd			4.17%		4.17%
    George Wright		3rd			45.00%		41.67%
    
    * = Player on ballot due to receiving a vote in 1901
    Holdovers Receiving At Least 50% in the Previous Election (5)
    Code:
    Player			1902 Support
    Pud Galvin		70.83%
    John Ward		62.50%
    Deacon White		62.50%
    Ross Barnes		58.33%
    Paul Hines		54.17%
    Last Year of Eligibility (0)

    Penultimate Year of Eligibility (0)


    Hall of Famers

    Players Elected (9)
    Code:
    Player			Year Elected	Election Percentage	Years on Ballot
    Cap Anson		1902		100%			1
    Dan Brouthers		1901		90.00%			1
    John Clarkson		1901		90.00%			1
    Roger Conner		1902		79.17%			1
    Buck Ewing		1902		83.33%			1
    Tim Keefe		1901		75.00%			1
    King Kelly		1902		75.00%			2
    Jim O’Rourke		1901		90.00%			1
    Charley Radbourn	1901		95.00%			1
    Players Elected by Position
    Catcher (1): Buck Ewing
    First Base (3): Cap Anson, Dan Brouthers, Roger Conner
    Second Base (0):
    Third Base (0):
    Shortstop (0):
    Left Field (1): Jim O'Rourke
    Center Field (0):
    Right Field (1): King Kelly
    Pitcher (3): John Clarkson, Tim Keefe, Charley Radbourn

    Players Elected by Year
    Code:
    Year		Player
    1901		Dan  Brouthers
    		John Clarkson
    		Tim Keefe
    		Jim O’Rourke
    		Charley Radbourn
    1902		Cap Anson
    Roger Conner
    Buck Ewing
    King Kelly
    Number of Ballots Submitted in Past Elections
    1901: 20
    1902: 24

    Links to Past Elections
    1901
    1902
    307
    Ross Barnes, 2B (1871-1879) - 3rd
    5.21%
    16
    Charlie Bennett, C (1878, 1880-1893) - 3rd
    4.23%
    13
    Lou Bierbauer, 2B (1896-1898) - 1st
    0.00%
    0
    Jack Boyle, C/1B (1896-1898) - 1st
    0.00%
    0
    Tom Brown, CF (1882-1898) - 1st
    0.00%
    0
    Pete Browning, CF (1882-1894) - 3rd
    4.23%
    13
    Oyster Burns, RF (1884-1885, 1887-1895) - 3rd
    0.65%
    2
    Bob Caruthers, SP/RF (1884-1893) - 3rd
    4.23%
    13
    Charlie Comiskey, 1B (1882-1894) - 3rd
    0.98%
    3
    Larry Corcoran, SP (1880-1887) - 3rd
    0.65%
    2
    Red Ehret, SP (1888-1898) - 1st
    0.00%
    0
    Bob Ferguson, 3B/2B (1871-1884) - 3rd
    0.65%
    2
    Pud Galvin, SP (1879-1892) - 3rd
    6.84%
    21
    Jack Glasscock, SS (1879-1895) - 3rd
    4.89%
    15
    George Gore, CF (1879-1892) - 3rd
    4.89%
    15
    Mike Griffin, CF (1887-1898) - 1st
    0.33%
    1
    Ned Hanlon, CF (1880-1892) - 3rd
    0.65%
    2
    Paul Hines, CF (1872-1891) - 3rd
    5.86%
    18
    Bug Holliday, CF (1889-1898) - 1st
    0.00%
    0
    Charley Jones, LF (1875-1880, 1883-1888) - 3rd
    0.33%
    1
    Bill Joyce, 3B (1890-1892, 1894-1898) - 1st
    0.00%
    0
    Matt Kilroy, SP (1886-1894, 1898) - 1st
    0.00%
    0
    Denny Lyons, 3B (1885-1897) - 2nd
    0.33%
    1
    Bobby Mathews, SP (1871-1879, 1881-1887) - 3rd
    0.33%
    1
    Tommy McCarthy, RF (1884-1896) - 3rd
    0.33%
    1
    Jim McCormick, SP (1878-1887) - 3rd
    0.65%
    2
    Cal McVey, C/1B (1871-1879) - 3rd
    2.28%
    7
    Levi Meyerle, 3B (1871-1877) - 3rd
    0.33%
    1
    Tony Mullane, SP (1881-1884, 1886-1894) - 3rd
    4.23%
    13
    Billy Nash, 3B (1884-1898) - 1st
    0.00%
    0
    Tip O'Neill, LF (1883-1892) - 3rd
    0.65%
    2
    Dave Orr, 1B (1883-1890) - 3rd
    0.33%
    1
    Lip Pike, CF (1871-1878, 1881, 1887) - 3rd
    1.63%
    5
    Hardy Richardson, 2B/LF (1879-1892) - 3rd
    4.23%
    13
    Billy Shindle, 3B (1896-1898) - 1st
    0.00%
    0
    Germany Smith, SS (1884-1898) - 1st
    0.00%
    0
    Al Spalding, SP (1871-1877) - 3rd
    4.23%
    13
    Joe Start, 1B (1871-1886) - 3rd
    3.91%
    12
    Ed Stein, SP (1890-1896, 1898) - 1st
    0.00%
    0
    Harry Stovey, LF/1B (1880-1893) - 3rd
    5.21%
    16
    Ezra Sutton, 3B (1871-1888) - 3rd
    3.91%
    12
    Sam Thompson, RF (1885-1898) - 1st
    4.89%
    15
    John Ward, SS/SP (1878-1894) - 3rd
    4.89%
    15
    Mickey Welch, SP (1880-1892) - 3rd
    2.28%
    7
    Deacon White, 3B/C (1871-1890) - 3rd
    5.86%
    18
    Will White, SP (1877-1886) - 3rd
    0.33%
    1
    Walt Wilmot, LF (1888-1895, 1897-1898) - 1st
    0.00%
    0
    George Wright, SS (1871-1882) - 3rd
    4.56%
    14
    None of the Above (Blank Ballot)
    0.00%
    0

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by DoubleX; 05-20-2008, 04:48 PM.

  • #2
    I made a slight modification to the rules, in that I kept Tommy McCarthy on the ballot even though he did not receive a vote in the last election, but because he received a vote in the first election. I figured anyone who received a vote in 1901 but not 1902, deserved an extra year, and McCarthy was the only one. If he doesn't get a vote this year, he'll be gone, same with anyone who doesn't get a vote this year.

    My Ballot:

    Charlie Bennett
    Pete Browning
    Pud Galvin
    Jack Glasscock
    George Gore
    Paul Hines
    Hardy Richardson
    Tony Mullane
    Joe Start
    Harry Stovey
    Ezra Sutton
    Sam Thompson
    John Ward
    Mickey Welch
    Deacon White

    Bob Caruthers just missed.
    Last edited by DoubleX; 05-20-2008, 04:34 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Bob Caruthers
      Pud Galvin
      Jack Glasscock
      George Gore
      Paul Hines
      Charley Jones
      Cal McVey
      Tony Mullane
      Lip Pike
      Hardy Richardson
      Joe Start
      Harry Stovey
      Ezra Sutton
      John Ward
      Deacon White
      "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
      "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
      "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
      "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

      Comment


      • #4
        My ballot

        Pud Galvin
        Mickey Welch
        My dream ballpark dimensions
        LF: 388 Feet...Height 37 Feet...LCF: 455 Feet...CF: 542 Feet...Height 35 Feet
        RCF: 471 Feet...RF: 400 Feet...Height 60 Feet
        Location....San Diego

        Comment


        • #5
          My Ballot:

          Browning
          Caruthers
          Galvin
          Spalding
          Thompson
          Ward
          Welch
          “There can be no higher law in journalism than to tell the truth and to shame the devil.” Walter Lippmann

          "Fill in any figure you want for that boy (Mantle). Whatever the figure, it's a deal." - Branch Rickey

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Sockeye View Post
            Pud Galvin
            Mickey Welch
            --Garry, I am having a hard time deciding whether you really don't get what constituted a Hall of Fame caliber player in the 19th century or if you are just being obstructionist here. Do you really believe that it is reasonable to induct only 1 position player (I believe you've only voted for Anson) from the first 25 years of major league baseball? I don't understand that position and all and would really like you to explain why you believe that. I don't mean that in a hostile way. I truely don't understand your reasoning here and would appreciate a little more info on how yu reached this conclusion.
            Thanks, Mark

            Comment


            • #7
              Barnes - best 19th century 2B and best player of the NA
              Bennett - best full time catcher of the 19th century
              Caruthers - outstanding pitcher and very good hitter
              Galvin - all time wins leader
              Gore - 3rd best 19th century CFer and probably top 5 OFer
              Hines - best CFer of the 70s/80s, best player a few years
              McVey - big bat who could play most anywhere
              Mullane - best pitcher of the AA
              Spaudlng - best pitcher of the 1870s and a good hitter
              Start -best player of the 60s, good player for VERY long time
              Stovey - amoung the top half dozen sluggers of 19th century
              Sutton - best 19th century 3B
              Ward - good pitcher, good SS, major contributor
              White (Deacon) - best catcher of 70s and oneof best 19th century careers
              Wright - best SS of the 70s and one of leading figures of that decade

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Sockeye View Post
                Pud Galvin
                Mickey Welch
                No position players?

                Jim O'Rourke was in the inaugural class in 1901. Paul Hines is a fairly good match for him. O'Rourke edges Hines in OPS+, 133 to 131, but O'Rourke was a corner outfielder, while Hines was a top-notch defensive CF during his prime. O'Rourke has a bit more career value than Hines, but Hines played twenty years in the NA and the NL, so he did have longevity as well.

                Also, Hines led major league position players in win shares in 1878 and 1879, and was tied for the lead in win shares among non-UA position players in 1884. (With the exception of St. Louis, the UA was on a par with the Northwest League in 1884.)

                ---

                Note that OPS+ tends to underrate players of the 1870s and 1880s, and especially those with long careers. Since the length of the season increased as time went by, a late season can have twice the weight as an earlier season. This means that a player's late seasons and decline phase have a greater impact than a player's prime seasons, and hence, by giving more weight to those later seasons, the OPS+ understates a players' general performance. Since season lengths since 1888 have hovered between 132 games and 154 games per year, this isn't as much of a problem with players of the 1890s.

                ---

                Also - and this is the third year I've asked this - what is your standard for position players, Sockeye? So far, you've said that Anson is the only position player you consider worthy of the hall. You've noted that other players weren't as good as Anson, but, except for that statement, you've never made an argument that they were unworthy of your vote. However, Mickey Welch wasn't as good as John Clarkson, but that hasn't stopped you from voting for Mickey Welch. So why is it different for position players?

                Comment


                • #9
                  My ballot (14 players):

                  Bennett
                  Galvin
                  Glasscock
                  Gore
                  Hines
                  Mullane
                  Richardson
                  Start
                  Stovey
                  Sutton
                  Thompson
                  Ward
                  D. White
                  G. Wright
                  Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                  Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                  A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by leecemark View Post
                    --Garry, I am having a hard time deciding whether you really don't get what constituted a Hall of Fame caliber player in the 19th century or if you are just being obstructionist here. Do you really believe that it is reasonable to induct only 1 position player (I believe you've only voted for Anson) from the first 25 years of major league baseball? I don't understand that position and all and would really like you to explain why you believe that. I don't mean that in a hostile way. I truely don't understand your reasoning here and would appreciate a little more info on how yu reached this conclusion.
                    Thanks, Mark
                    Mark,

                    Lets just say I'm playing the role of the stingiest of sportswriters. Believing that election on the first few times on the ballot should be reserved for only the best players. Garry
                    My dream ballpark dimensions
                    LF: 388 Feet...Height 37 Feet...LCF: 455 Feet...CF: 542 Feet...Height 35 Feet
                    RCF: 471 Feet...RF: 400 Feet...Height 60 Feet
                    Location....San Diego

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      My Ballot:

                      Ross Barnes
                      Charlie Bennett
                      Bob Caruthers
                      Jack Glasscock
                      George Gore
                      Paul Hines
                      Tony Mullane
                      Lip Pike
                      Hardy Richardson
                      Joe Start
                      Harry Stovey
                      Ezra Sutton
                      Sam Thompson
                      John Ward
                      Deacon White

                      Pud Galvin, Cal McVey, Al Spalding, George Wright are all guys I'll add when there's room if any of them don't get elected this time around.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sockeye View Post
                        Mark,

                        Lets just say I'm playing the role of the stingiest of sportswriters. Believing that election on the first few times on the ballot should be reserved for only the best players. Garry
                        If you're going to be stingy, at least pick 2 strong candidates.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sockeye View Post
                          Mark,

                          Lets just say I'm playing the role of the stingiest of sportswriters. Believing that election on the first few times on the ballot should be reserved for only the best players. Garry
                          That's woefully inconsistent with your ballots.
                          "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                          "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                          "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                          "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sockeye View Post
                            Mark,

                            Lets just say I'm playing the role of the stingiest of sportswriters. Believing that election on the first few times on the ballot should be reserved for only the best players. Garry
                            So what you're saying is that Dan Brouthers, who held the records for best career OPS+ and the best career slugging average when he first appeared on the ballot in 1901, is not among the best players in base ball history. You're also saying that Roger Connor, who holds the career records for both triples and home runs, is not among the best players in base ball history.

                            However, Mickey Welch, whose only league leadership in anything important was in W-L % in 1885 (saves are not important when you can lead the league with just two of them), is, according to you, one of the best players in the game's history AND better than either Brouthers or Connor.

                            Could you explain why this is so? I'm curious.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by leecemark View Post
                              --Garry, I am having a hard time deciding whether you really don't get what constituted a Hall of Fame caliber player in the 19th century or if you are just being obstructionist here.
                              OOC - The thought that Sockeye is just being obstructionist has never crossed my mind. My impression has always been that Sockeye's knowledge of 19th-century base ball is extremely limited. As he has been interpreting the available statistics according the standards of 21st-century baseball, his conclusions leave something to be desired.


                              Responses to Sockeye include:

                              Originally posted by jjpm74
                              If you're going to be stingy, at least pick 2 strong candidates.
                              Originally posted by Classic
                              That's woefully inconsistent with your ballots.
                              I think Sockeye actually believes that Galvin and Welch are the two best candidates available. I don't want to be mean to him. I'm asking him questions to discover what his impressions of 19th-century baseball are in order to find out what misconceptions he has about the game, and, as best I can, correct them. Unfortunately, my phrasing has not been ideal.

                              Can anyone recommend some good books on 19th-century baseball to him? The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract and the Hall of Merit archives at baseballthinkfactory could help him, but I'm trying to think of something more specific than the abstract and more introductory than the HOM discussion.
                              Last edited by AG2004; 05-20-2008, 07:41 PM.

                              Comment

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