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BBF Progressive HoF Election: 1904

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  • BBF Progressive HoF Election: 1904

    PLEASE READ BEFORE VOTING!

    Format and Rules
    For the sake of simplification, convenience, and continuity, we will adopt the rules currently employed by the BBWAA and apply them throughout, with the exception of modifications made for first five elections (and perhaps longer if necessary):

    Voting Rules: For at least the first five elections, voters may vote for between 0-15 candidates (the number will be eventually be cut to 10). A "None of the Above" option is available if you believe no one is worthy and you wish to submit a blank ballot. Votes will be made public, and voters are encouraged to post their ballots in the thread and not view results before voting. PLEASE LIMIT YOUR BALLOT TO 15 VOTES AT MOST. EXCESS VOTES MAY RESULT IN YOUR BALLOT BEING DISQUALIFIED.

    Thoughtfulness and Editing Ballots: Please review and thoughtfully consider the candidates before voting, and make sure you have accurately filled out your ballot before submitting. Requests for editing ballots after the fact will generally not be honored. Exceptions might be made if a voter accidentally voted for the wrong player or accidentally went over the voting limit (but I strongly encourage you to do your best to prevent either from happening).

    Required Support: Players receiving at least 75% support in an election will be elected. For the first five elections, a player must receive at least one vote to appear on the next ballot, though extra considerations may be made for players not receiving a vote in the first election. After the first five elections, players will need at least 5% support to stay on the ballot.

    Player Eligibility: Players eligible for an election will have last played at least 5 years prior to the election year and have appeared in at least 10 major league seasons. Players will remain on the ballot for 15 years, provided they continue to receive at least 5% of the vote.
    - Early Election Modifications: To be eligible for the first election, players must have played at least 7 seasons between 1871 and 1896. The next four elections will have an 8 year rule. Players from before this period, or who do not meet the 7 year requirement, or who are no longer eligible for the current election, will be eligible for the Veterans/Pioneers Committee, provided their last appearance was no later than 20 years prior to the current election. Players eligible in the first election will be eligible for 15 years, regardless of when they retired, and provided they meet the minimum support requirements. The 5% rule is not in effect for the first five elections. During this time, players need to receive at least one vote to remain on the ballot (or at least one vote in the first two elections to make the third).

    Election Period: Elections will close exactly a week after starting. The next election might not commence for another day or two.


    1904 Guide
    There are 47 candidates on the 1903 ballot. First time eligible players last played in 1899.

    First Timers (12)
    Frank Dwyer
    John Grim
    Arlie Latham
    Ed McKEan
    Bid McPhee
    Billy Rhines
    Jake Stenzel
    Jack Stivetts
    Jack Taylor
    Mike Tiernan
    Tommy Tucker
    Farmer Vaughn

    Holdovers (35)
    Code:
    Player			Year of Eligibility	High Support	Previous Year’s Support
    Ross Barnes		4th			61.54%		61.54% (1903)
    Charlie Bennett		4th			50.00%		50.00% (1903)
    Pete Browning		4th			50.00%		50.00% (1903)
    Oyster Burns		4th			7.69%		7.69% (1903)
    Bob Caruthers		4th			50.00%		50.00% (1903)
    Charlie Comiskey	4th			11.54%		11.54% (1903)
    Larry Corcoran		4th			7.69%		7.69% (1903)
    Bob Ferguson		4th			8.33%		7.69% (1903)
    Jack Glasscock		4th			57.69%		57.69% (1903)
    George Gore		4th			57.69%		57.69% (1903)
    Mike Griffin		2nd			3.85%		3.85% (19030
    Ned Hanlon		4th			7.69%		7.69% (1903)
    Paul Hines		4th			69.23%		69.23% (1903)
    Charley Jones		4th			3.85%		5.00% (1901)
    Denny Lyons		3rd			3.85%		4.17% (1902)
    Bobby Mathews		4th			3.85%		4.17% (1902)
    Tommy McCarthy		4th			3.85%		5.00% (1901)
    Jim McCormick		4th			7.69%		7.69% (1903)
    Cal McVey		4th			26.92%		26.92% (1903) 
    Levi Meyerle		4th			3.85%		4.17% (1902)
    Tony Mullane		4th			50.00%		50.00% (1903)
    Tip O’Neill		4th			7.69%		8.33% (1902)
    Dave Orr		4th			3.85%		8.33% (1902)
    Lip Pike		4th			19.23%		19.23% (1903)
    Hardy Richardson	4th			50.00%		50.00% (1903)
    Al Spalding		4th			50.00%		50.00% (1903)
    Joe Start		4th			46.15%		46.15% (1903)
    Harry Stovey		4th			61.54%		61.54% (1903)
    Ezra Sutton		4th			46.15%		46.15% (1903)
    Sam Thompson		2nd			57.69%		57.69% (1903)
    John Ward		4th			57.69%		62.50% (1902)
    Mickey Welch		4th			26.92%		26.92% (1903)
    Deacon White		4th			69.23%		69.23% (1903)
    Will White		4th			3.85%		4.17% (1902)
    George Wright		4th			53.85%		53.85% (1903)
    Holdovers Receiving At Least 50% in the Previous Election (15)
    Code:
    Player			1903 Support
    Paul Hines		69.23%
    Deacon White		69.23%
    Ross Barnes		61.54%
    Harry Stovey		61.54%
    Jack Glasscock		57.69%
    George Gore		57.69%
    Sam Thompson		57.69%
    John Ward		57.69%
    George Wright		53.85%
    Charlie Bennett		50.00%
    Pete Browning		50.00%
    Bob Caruthers		50.00%
    Tony Mullane		50.00%
    Hardy Richardson	50.00%
    Al Spalding		50.00%
    Last Year of Eligibility (0)

    Penultimate Year of Eligibility (0)


    Hall of Famers

    Players Elected (10)
    Code:
    Player			Year Elected	Election Percentage	Years on Ballot
    Cap Anson		1902		100%			1
    Dan Brouthers		1901		90.00%			1
    John Clarkson		1901		90.00%			1
    Roger Conner		1902		79.17%			1
    Buck Ewing		1902		83.33%			1
    Pud Galvin		1903		80.77%			3
    Tim Keefe		1901		75.00%			1
    King Kelly		1902		75.00%			2
    Jim O’Rourke		1901		90.00%			1
    Charley Radbourn	1901		95.00%			1
    Players Elected by Position
    Catcher (1): Buck Ewing
    First Base (3): Cap Anson, Dan Brouthers, Roger Conner
    Second Base (0):
    Third Base (0):
    Shortstop (0):
    Left Field (1): Jim O'Rourke
    Center Field (0):
    Right Field (1): King Kelly
    Pitcher (4): John Clarkson, Pud Galvin, Tim Keefe, Charley Radbourn

    Players Elected by Year
    1901: Dan Brouthers, John Clarkson, Tim Keefe, Jim O’Rourke, Charley Radbourn
    1902: Cap Anson, Roger Conner, Buck Ewing, King Kelly
    1903: Pud Galvin

    Number of Ballots Submitted in Past Elections
    1901: 20
    1902: 24
    1903: 26

    Links to Past Elections
    1901
    1902
    1903
    304
    Ross Barnes, 2B (1871-1879) - 4th
    5.59%
    17
    Charlie Bennett, C (1878, 1880-1893) - 4th
    5.26%
    16
    Pete Browning, CF (1882-1894) - 4th
    4.28%
    13
    Oyster Burns, RF (1884-1885, 1887-1895) - 4th
    0.00%
    0
    Bob Caruthers, SP/RF (1884-1893) - 4th
    3.62%
    11
    Charlie Comiskey, 1B (1882-1894) - 4th
    0.66%
    2
    Larry Corcoran, SP (1880-1887) - 4th
    0.66%
    2
    Frank Dwyer, SP (1888-1899) - 1st
    0.33%
    1
    Bob Ferguson, 3B/2B (1871-1884) - 4th
    0.66%
    2
    Jack Glasscock, SS (1879-1895) - 4th
    3.29%
    10
    George Gore, CF (1879-1892) - 4th
    4.61%
    14
    Mike Griffin, CF (1887-1898) - 2nd
    0.33%
    1
    John Grim, C (1888, 1890-1899) - 1st
    0.00%
    0
    Ned Hanlon, CF (1880-1892) - 4th
    0.33%
    1
    Paul Hines, CF (1872-1891) - 4th
    6.25%
    19
    Charley Jones, LF (1875-1880, 1883-1888) - 4th
    0.66%
    2
    Arlie Latham, 3B (1880, 1883-1896, 1899) - 1st
    0.00%
    0
    Denny Lyons, 3B (1885-1897) - 3rd
    0.33%
    1
    Bobby Mathews, SP (1871-1879, 1881-1887) - 4th
    0.66%
    2
    Tommy McCarthy, RF (1884-1896) - 4th
    0.00%
    0
    Jim McCormick, SP (1878-1887) - 4th
    0.66%
    2
    Ed McKean, SS (1887-1899) - 1st
    0.33%
    1
    Bid McPhee, 2B (1882-1899) - 1st
    4.61%
    14
    Cal McVey, C/1B (1871-1879) - 4th
    2.63%
    8
    Levi Meyerle, 3B (1871-1877) - 4th
    0.33%
    1
    Tony Mullane, SP (1881-1884, 1886-1894) - 4th
    4.93%
    15
    Tip O'Neill, LF (1883-1892) - 4th
    0.33%
    1
    Dave Orr, 1B (1883-1890) - 4th
    0.33%
    1
    Lip Pike, CF (1871-1878, 1881, 1887) - 4th
    1.32%
    4
    Hardy Richardson, 2B/LF (1879-1892) - 4th
    4.28%
    13
    Billy Rhines, SP (1890-1893, 1895-1899) - 1st
    0.00%
    0
    Al Spalding, SP (1871-1877) - 4th
    3.95%
    12
    Joe Start, 1B (1871-1886) - 4th
    4.28%
    13
    Jake Stenzel, C (1890, 1892-1899) - 1st
    0.00%
    0
    Jack Stivetts, SP (1889-1899) - 1st
    0.00%
    0
    Harry Stovey, LF/1B (1880-1893) - 4th
    5.59%
    17
    Ezra Sutton, 3B (1871-1888) - 4th
    3.95%
    12
    Jack Taylor, SP (1891-1899) - 1st
    0.00%
    0
    Sam Thompson, RF (1885-1898) - 2nd
    5.26%
    16
    Mike Tiernan, RF (1887-1899) - 1st
    0.33%
    1
    Tommy Tucker, 1B (1887-1899) - 1st
    0.00%
    0
    Farmer Vaughn, C (1886, 1888-1899) - 1st
    0.00%
    0
    John Ward, SS/SP (1878-1894) - 4th
    4.93%
    15
    Mickey Welch, SP (1880-1892) - 4th
    3.29%
    10
    Deacon White, 3B/C (1871-1890) - 4th
    6.25%
    19
    Will White, SP (1877-1886) - 4th
    0.33%
    1
    George Wright, SS (1871-1882) - 4th
    4.61%
    14
    None of the Above (Blank Ballot)
    0.00%
    0

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by DoubleX; 05-31-2008, 08:07 AM.

  • #2
    My Ballot

    Mickey Welch
    My dream ballpark dimensions
    LF: 388 Feet...Height 37 Feet...LCF: 455 Feet...CF: 542 Feet...Height 35 Feet
    RCF: 471 Feet...RF: 400 Feet...Height 60 Feet
    Location....San Diego

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Sockeye View Post
      Mickey Welch
      Still no position players?

      What, exactly, is your standard for a position player to be worthy of your ballot?

      Comment


      • #4
        Ross Barnes
        Charlie Bennett
        Bob Caruthers
        Larry Corcoran
        Jack Glasscock
        George Gore
        Tony Mullane
        Hardy Richardson
        Joe Start
        Harry Stovey
        Ezra Sutton
        Sam Thompson
        John Ward
        Deacon White
        George Wright

        Left off Paul Hines, Lip Pike, Cal McVey this go around. I may eventually vote for Bid McPhee if he sticks in there long enough.

        Comment


        • #5
          McPhee knocks long lost brother McVey off the bottom of the ballot (but this list of 15 is in alphabetical order)

          Ross Barnes
          Charlie Bennett
          Bob Ferguson
          Jack Glasscock
          George Gore
          Mike Griffin
          Paul Hines
          Bid McPhee
          Hardy Richardson
          Al Spalding
          Joe Start
          Ezra Sutton
          John Ward
          Deacon White
          George Wright

          Comment


          • #6
            you all have your work cut out for you

            OK, George Wright has three votes (and someone owes a posted ballot).
            23 players have 1 or 2 votes out of 4. You can count most of the twos on pages #4 and #5 whose intersection is ten.
            You all have your work cut out for you.
            Good luck.
            Last edited by Paul Wendt; 05-28-2008, 09:28 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Can someone explain to me why McPhee is generally regarded as a much superior candidate to Ed McKean? Is it the whole no glove thing?

              McPhee had the longer career, but McKean did manage a pretty impressive 7600 PAs himself, has an 8 point advantage over McPhee in OPS+, played the more demanding position, SS, and put up respectable counting totals for the era and his position. Moreover, McPhee hit below the league average for his career, while McKean was a .300 hitter for his career. Further, McKean's OPS+ in his top 5 seasons is is 131, while McPhee's is 120. So McKean has a decided advantage in peak performance (heck, McPhee's best year in OPS+ doesn't even pass McKean's 131 5-year average).

              I imagine that McPhee will get decent to good support here, while McKean will likely get scant support, but I frankly don't see how they're all that different and I think an argument could be made for McKean being the better player.

              I went with:

              Charlie Bennett
              Pete Browning
              Jack Glasscock
              George Gore
              Paul Hines
              Ed McKean - Strategic Vote
              Tony Mullane
              Hardy Richardson
              Joe Start
              Harry Stovey
              Ezra Sutton
              Sam Thompson
              John Ward
              Mickey Welch
              Deacon White
              Last edited by DoubleX; 05-28-2008, 09:37 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                I went with 14 this time:

                Bennett
                Glasscock
                Gore
                Hines
                McPhee
                Mullane
                Richardson
                Start
                Stovey
                Sutton
                Thompson
                Ward
                D. White
                Wright
                Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by DoubleX View Post
                  Can someone explain to me why McPhee is generally regarded as a much superior candidate to Ed McKean?
                  The Bill James letter grades express a consensus on these two: Bid McPhee A+, Ed McKean F.

                  Many observers think McKean and Bill Joyce carried iron gloves. (Joyce's big bat reaped no votes last year.) McPhee was a legendary fielder without a glove and at last with one.
                  McPhee was a good batter. Not so good as Dunlap --who was?-- but Dunlap didn't play long. Much better than Pfeffer, the other whiz at second base.

                  A few colored ballplayers have achieved a measure of renown among the white race and it is remarkable how many of them have played the second sack. Does anyone know why? There was the pioneer Bud Fowler who must have started two leagues and a dozen clubs. Now Sol White has collected three of them together in the the infield of the Philadelphia Giants: himself, Frank Grant, and Bill Monroe.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    George Wright has 5 (and two people owe posted ballots).
                    Several players have 4 out of 7.

                    There are 71 votes. One person has bravely, overtly cast a single vote. 15+15+15+14+1 = 60.
                    The two people who owe posted ballots have cast 11 votes total.
                    This report is subject to clerical error and it is one that I shall not repeat for at least one week.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Bowning, Hines, Mullane, Spalding, Thompson, Welch, White

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        1904 Ballot: McPhee replaces Galvin

                        Barnes
                        Bennett
                        Glasscock
                        Gore
                        Hines
                        McPhee
                        McVey
                        Richardson
                        Spalding
                        Start
                        Stovey
                        Sutton
                        Ward
                        D.White
                        Wright
                        Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                        Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Pete Browning
                          Bob Caruthers
                          Charlie Comiskey
                          Ned Hanlon
                          Bid McPhee
                          Tony Mullane
                          Al Spalding
                          Sam Thompson
                          Mickey Welch
                          George Wright
                          :radio Please check out my collection of vintage baseball recordings:

                          http://www.oldtimesports.net/users/AWilliams

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            With the poll up for less than three hours, the obstructionists are already pretty much assured of carrying the election.

                            Every candidate has missed at least four ballots. Assuming the same number of ballots as last election (26), for one of those four currently at 60% to be elected they would need to be named on 14 of the next 16 ballots (87.5%).

                            Next election, 1905, also looks like a shutout. Hamilton and Rusie make the 1906 election the next election to expect any inductees.
                            Last edited by Freakshow; 05-28-2008, 10:45 AM.
                            Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                            Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Freakshow View Post
                              With the poll up for less than three hours, the obstructionists are already pretty much assured of carrying the election.
                              Hopefully that won't continue. If it does, people will lose interest in this project.

                              As it stands, it seems that about 30% of the people voting will not support anyone who isn't already in the HOF or listen to any arguments in support of anyone outside regardless of how strong a case they might have. A few also only seem to apply 2008 standard benchmarks to 19th century players completely discounting things like a shorter schedule, platooning roles in the 19th century, the fact that the home run was an anomaly, etc...

                              I'm not sure how worthwhile this project is in its current state.

                              Comment

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