BBF Progressive HoF Election: 1951

[SABR Matt]

More like I'm a little frustrated that someone made a good case for a player, but you guys have seemingly ignored it and are still discussing 19th century players.

And yes, I'm "enamored" with it. I've already printed it out and framed it on my wall.

I can't speak for everyone here...but I read that post, disagreed with it on practical grounds, but opted not to comment as at the time there were other posters asking me for my opinion and/or data.

I do not recall whether I commented on Bridges directly earlier in this thread and I don't feel like sifting through those comments again...but the problem I have with Bridges is the complete and utter lack of a dominant peak. He was just pretty good in a relatively short career without any bells or whistles.

Yr	Lg	Off	Def	Pit	O-M	D-M	P-M	Wins
1933	AL	0.18	0.23	7.67	-0.2	0.2	12.2	8.08
1940	AL	-0.48	0.19	7.58	-1.4	0.2	12.5	7.29
1934	AL	-0.72	0.10	7.74	-2.2	0.0	11.8	7.12
1936	AL	-0.36	0.42	6.69	-1.5	0.6	9.3	6.75
1939	AL	-0.18	0.03	6.23	-0.9	-0.1	9.7	6.08
1943	AL	0.18	0.26	4.40	-0.1	0.4	6.2	4.84
1935	AL	0.05	0.14	4.45	-0.6	0.0	5.1	4.64
1941	AL	-0.52	0.36	4.75	-1.4	0.6	7.5	4.59
1937	AL	-0.34	0.48	4.09	-1.3	0.8	4.7	4.23
1942	AL	-1.21	0.29	4.39	-2.9	0.4	6.4	3.47
1932	AL	-0.43	0.13	3.49	-1.4	0.1	4.3	3.19
1938	AL	-0.36	0.11	2.05	-1.1	0.1	1.9	1.80
1930	AL	0.06	0.01	1.21	0.0	0.0	1.9	1.28
1931	AL	-0.37	0.16	1.23	-1.2	0.2	0.0	1.02

Compare that to Dean:

Yr	Lg	Off	Def	Pit	O-M	D-M	P-M	Wins
1934	NL	-0.29	0.14	12.12	-1.4	0.0	20.0	11.97
1933	NL	0.12	0.06	7.57	-0.5	-0.1	11.1	7.75
1932	NL	0.25	0.13	7.24	-0.2	0.0	10.5	7.62
1936	NL	-0.25	0.00	7.79	-1.3	-0.2	11.2	7.54
1935	NL	0.14	-0.02	7.27	-0.6	-0.3	10.0	7.39
1937	NL	0.03	-0.01	5.65	-0.4	-0.2	8.5	5.67
1938	NL	-0.22	0.06	4.88	-0.6	0.1	8.8	4.72
1939	NL	-0.24	0.07	2.49	-0.7	0.1	3.7	2.32
1930	NL	0.00	0.00	1.69	0.0	0.0	3.3	1.69

Yes, Dean lasted even less time, but here's another example of people abusing the ERA+ * IP as though all 2500 IP, 125 ERA+ pitchers had the same value. They don't and debates shouldn't be won or really even constructed around that kind of logic.

[Fielding Marshall]

Maybe I'm missing something, but looking at your numbers, if you take away 1934 for Dean (and one year fluctuations are fairly common; if you want the true worth of a player, you look at multiple years), an argument can be made that Bridges was the superior pitcher.

In any event, the real question is whether Bridges belongs in the Hall. Now, I'm a big hall person, but I'm also a peak person...I'm wondering, what benchmark would you use to determine a Hall-worthy peak?

[Fielding Marshall]

Yes, Dean lasted even less time, but here's another example of people abusing the ERA+ * IP as though all 2500 IP, 125 ERA+ pitchers had the same value.

Very true, but the 2500 IP, 125 ERA+ pitchers aren't altogether common...you should definitely look at individual seasons for all players, but those kind of pitchers imply a peak of sustained excellence. If you know of that kind of pitcher who isn't at worst borderline-out, please let me know.

[bambambaseball]

The one pitcher on the balott who I think we should be talking about the most if Wes Ferrell. The guy was the best hitting pitcher in the 20th century who stayed a pitcher and 116 ERA+ in 2623 IP is similar to a number of pitchers elected. Are people bothered by the fact that he had 193 games? 'cause its weird that a guy that had a 68 WARP3 as a batter and was as dominant of a pitcher as he was would have troubel getting elected!

[SABR Matt]

I agree that Bridges is, at worst, borderline out...I have him out due to lack of high-peak, but I won't throw a fuss at people voting for him.

As for Wes Ferrell, offensively, he was a very good hitting pitcher, but there have been others who lasted longer and were nearly as accomplished at the plate. Still, the trade up from a typical -20 offensive marker to Ferrell's +9.5 is not something that should be ignored. I have him on the bubble (and voted for him in this election), but he's not getting in just because he was a good hitting pitcher...he's getting in because he had a big peak:

Yr	Lg	Off	Def	Pit	O-M	D-M	P-M	Wins
1935	AL	1.95	0.44	8.07	2.8	0.6	11.7	10.46
1931	AL	1.77	0.60	7.86	2.7	0.9	11.9	10.23
1930	AL	0.78	0.24	9.14	0.7	0.3	14.2	10.16
1936	AL	0.68	0.29	6.60	0.4	0.4	9.0	7.57
1932	AL	0.00	0.50	5.88	-0.9	0.8	7.8	6.38
1929	AL	0.23	0.31	5.23	-0.2	0.4	7.1	5.77
1934	AL	0.85	0.13	4.51	1.1	0.1	6.5	5.49
1933	AL	1.44	0.75	1.52	1.9	1.2	0.3	3.71
1937	AL	0.97	0.27	1.95	1.0	0.3	0.0	3.19

Not to mention the fact that he was a very good fielder.

[bambambaseball]

Wes Ferrell was an excellent all around athlete. The HOF dropped the ball when they elected his brother and not him.

[Ace Venom]

We've elected Bill Dickey in his first year of eligibility with 94.29% of the vote and Red Ruffing in his second year of eligibility with 82.86% of the vote. The Contributor's Committee elected manager Joe McCarthy and Commissioner Kennesaw Mountain Landis. The Negro League Players VC ballot and 1952 ballot will be posted later today.