RF: Clemente, Crawford, Gwynn, Jackson, or Kaline?

[DoubleX]

I think there is a general agreement, that in some order the four greatest rightfielders are: Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, and Mel Ott. Who do you think rounds at that top 5? I believe the best candidates to be Roberto Clemente, Sam Crawford, Tony Gwynn, Reggie Jackson, and Al Kaline. Who do you feel is the best of this group, or is it someone else (Paul Waner, Dave Winfield, Harry Heilmann, Willie Keeler, etc.)?

[abacab]

I'd rate Kaline first, 0.001% better than Clemente.

There's a small gap between those two and the rest of the candidates.

Then we have Crawford/Gwynn/Jackson/Winfield - I have no idea who's the best of this group.

Then Waner, then Heilmann, then a big gap before whoever comes next.

[Redondos]

I'd rate Kaline first, 0.001% better than Clemente.

I have a huge amount of respect for those two guys, but I'll pick Clemente over Kaline. He not only excelled during the regular season year after year, but perhaps there was no better hitter in the clutch. Certainly, when the chips were down in WS play, he was the man. I still think that nobody turned in a better individual performance in a WS than Clemente did in '71.

His career totals are impressive enough on the surface. But let's not forget that his career was tragically cut short by his ill-fated mission of mercy. Anyone who remembers what kind of shape he was in (and I have a video of the 1972 All-Star game, the Great One's last) knows that he easily could have had 3 more productive years ahead of him.

[MyDogSparty]

But let's not forget that his career was tragically cut short by his ill-fated mission of mercy.

I really like both players but I tend to think that Clemente's tragedy cut short the usual declining years most players exerience after 15+ seasons in the majors. Afterall, he did participate in 18 seasons. So, if he would have been able to keep playing like Kaline did for 22 seasons, his final averages (AVG, OBP, SLG) would have been less while his counting stats (hits, HR, DO, TR, etc.) would have grown.

While I think it's very close between these two players, I tend to think Kaline was a better all-around player. Like Clemente, he was a good clutch player too. One thing that hurts Kaline are his constant injuries. The media used to get on Clemente for being a bit of a hypochondriac but that may have been due to the language barrier. I think it was Kaline who was injured more and lost more time due to his injuries.

[pjf]

Double X, No reflection on your poll, you listed great some great names but it constantly amazes me how Roger Maris is so often overlooked. Two time MVP ( how many of the others can claim this ? ), Gold Glove winner, 7 All-Star Games, Seven World Series. He is probably the perfect example of why numbers don't tell you everything about a ballplayers ability. Mantle: " Roger was as good a player as any I ever played with or against." Played in both leagues and in 1967 set a Cardinals record of 7 RBI's in the World Series. Credited with saving the World Series against the Giants with a catch and throw holding Mays at third setting up McCovey's final out. Maris also played several seasons hurt after '61 playing with a wrist injury which was either misdiagnosed or kept from him by the Yankees.The result was loss of power and a shortened career. On a career basis I would go with Kaline, Clemente and Jackson but as a ballplayer Maris could hold his own with any one of them. Those who played with or against him know how good he was and his determination and hardnosed play was an asset to any team.Too bad history forgets Roger Maris the ballplayer vs the guy who hit '61 home runs.

[DoubleX]

Double X, No reflection on your poll, you listed great some great names but it constantly amazes me how Roger Maris is so often overlooked. Two time MVP ( how many of the others can claim this ? ), Gold Glove winner, 7 All-Star Games, Seven World Series. He is probably the perfect example of why numbers don't tell you everything about a ballplayers ability. Mantle: " Roger was as good a player as any I ever played with or against." Played in both leagues and in 1967 set a Cardinals record of 7 RBI's in the World Series. Credited with saving the World Series against the Giants with a catch and throw holding Mays at third setting up McCovey's final out. Maris also played several seasons hurt after '61 playing with a wrist injury which was either misdiagnosed or kept from him by the Yankees.The result was loss of power and a shortened career. On a career basis I would go with Kaline, Clemente and Jackson but as a ballplayer Maris could hold his own with any one of them. Those who played with or against him know how good he was and his determination and hardnosed play was an asset to any team.Too bad history forgets Roger Maris the ballplayer vs the guy who hit '61 home runs.

You raise some good points, but outside of 60 and 61, I'd take any of the other guys in a heartbeat over Maris. Maris had two great years, one very good year, and four pretty good years. I don't know 5-7 years of being a good player compares favorably to some of these other guys that were routinely better than Maris for close to two decades. If you want to just go on peak year performance, then Maris can definitely hold his own with these guys. But if we are to extend it beyond more than a couple of years and judge by career, Maris just doesn't measure up to these other guys.

[pjf]

You raise some good points, but outside of 60 and 61, I'd take any of the other guys in a heartbeat over Maris. Maris had two great years, one very good year, and four pretty good years. I don't know 5-7 years of being a good player compares favorably to some of these other guys that were routinely better than Maris for close to two decades. If you want to just go on peak year performance, then Maris can definitely hold his own with these guys. But if we are to extend it beyond more than a couple of years and judge by career, Maris just doesn't measure up to these other guys.

Agreed, my point was that either people forget or those that never saw Maris play don't realize how good a ballplayer he was. Injuries are not quantifiable but then again statistics can never tell the whole story. I guess that's why Maris will always be an also ran. But Kaline and Clemente are tough to go against anyway.

[DoubleX]

Some Info About The Candidates

Roberto Clemente
162 Game Triple Crown Averages: .317, 16, 87
OPS+: 130
10 Best OPS+: 170, 168, 158, 151, 149, 146, 145, 145, 138, 135
RC/27: 6.39
EqA: .300
WARP3: 122.4
Major Awards: 1 MVP (3 Top 5 Finishes), 1 WS MVP, 12 Gold Gloves
Titles: 4 BA Titles, 2 Hits Titles
Other: 3000 Hits, 240 Homeruns, 1305 RBI; Seen As A Groundbreaker For Latin Americans In Baseball; Career Ended Tragically Prematurely.

Sam Crawford
162 Game Triple Crown Averages: .309, 6, 98 – Played Entirely During Deadball Era
OPS+: 144
10 Best OPS+: 168, 163, 159, 159, 158, 158, 153, 152, 151
RC/27: 6.16
EqA: .295
WARP: 107.9
Major Awards: 0 MVP (1 Top 5 Finish) – The Award Didn’t Really Exist As We Know It During His Career, Nor Did Gold Glove Awards.
Titles: 2 Homerun Titles, 3 RBI Titles, 1 Runs Title, 2 Total Bases Titles, 6 Triples Titles, 1 Doubles Title, 1 Power/Speed Title
Other: 2961 Hits, 1525 RBI, 366 SB; All-Time Leader In Triples; Often Finished 2nd In The League In Many Categories, Including Triple Crown Categories.

Tony Gwynn
162 Game Triple Crown Averages: .338, 9, 76
OPS+: 132
10 Best OPS+: 169, 158, 156, 141, 138, 136, 135, 135, 133, 129
RC/27: 6.77
EqA: .305
WARP3: 114.0
Major Awards: 0 MVP (1 Top 5 Finish), 5 Gold Gloves
Titles: 8 BA Titles, 7 Hits Titles, 1 Runs Title, 1 OBP Title
Other: 3141 Hits, 319 SB, 543 Doubles; Highest Career BA Above League BA Since Ty Cobb.

Harry Heilmann
162 Game Triple Crown Averages: .342, 14, 116
OPS+: 148
10 Best OPS: 194, 180, 169, 167, 160, 153, 149, 149, 142, 137
RC/27: 8.28
EqA: .309
WARP3: 92.9
Major Awards: 0 MVP (4 Top 5 Finishes)
Titles: 4 BA Titles, 1 Hits Title, 1 Doubles Title
Other: 2660 Hits, 1539 RBI, 113 SB; .342 Career BA Is 11th Best All-Time; History Seems To Forget Just How Great A Hitter Heilmann Was; Over 1500 Less ABs Than The Next Fewest Here.

Reggie Jackson
162 Game Triple Crown Averages: .262, 32, 98
OPS+: 139
10 Best OPS+: 187, 172, 166, 161, 155, 150, 150, 149, 147, 144
RC/27: 6.07
EqA: .304
WARP3: 118.7
Major Awards: 1 MVP (5 Top 5 Finishes), 2 WS MVPs
Titles: 4 Homerun Titles; 1 RBI Title, 2 OPS Titles, 4 OPS+ Titles, 3 Slg. Titles, 3 Power/Speed Titles
Other: 563 Homeruns, 1702 RBI, 2584 Hits; Came Up Huge In 5 World Series.

Al Kaline
162 Game Triple Crown Averages: .297, 23, 90
OPS+: 134
10 Best OPS+: 176, 162, 162, 152, 152, 149, 146, 145, 144, 143
RC/27: 6.53
EqA: .298
WARP3: 118.4
Major Awards: 0 MVP (4 Top 5 Finishes), 10 Gold Gloves
Titles: 1 BA Title, 1 Hits Title, 1 Total Bases Title, 1 OPS Title, 1 OPS+ Title, 1 Slg. Title, 1 Doubles Title
Other: 3007 Hits, 399 Homeruns, 1583 RBI, 137 SB; About As Consistently Good In All Aspects Of The Game As A Player Can Be For A Long Period Of Time.

Paul Waner
162 Game Triple Crown Averages: .333, 7, 83
OPS+: 134
10 Best OPS+: 157, 155, 155, 154, 147, 144, 135, 134, 132, 132
RC/27: 7.42
EqA: .305
WARP3: 113.4
Major Awards: 1 MVP (4 Top 5 Finishes)
Titles: 3 BA Titles, 1 RBI Title, 2 Hits Titles, 2 Runs Titles, 1 Total Bases Title, 2 Doubles Titles, 2 Triples Titles
Other: 3152 Hits; Not Sure What Else To Say About Waner.

Dave Winfield
162 Game Triple Crown Averages: .283, 25, 100
OPS+: 129
10 Best OPS+: 165, 159, 154, 149, 142, 138, 138, 137, 135, 133
RC/27: 5.95
EqA: .299
WARP3: 128.3
Major Awards: 0 MVP (3 Top 5 Finishes), 7 Gold Gloves
Titles: 1 RBI Title, 1 Total Bases Title, 1 OPS+ Title
Other: 3110 Hits, 465 Homeruns, 1833 RBI, 223 SB, 540 Doubles; Excelled In All Facets Of The Game; One Of Only Eight Players With 3000+ Hits And 400+ Homeruns; One Of Only Seven Players with 3000+ Hits, 400+ Homeruns, and 1800+ RBI.

[BigStellyPADRES4LIFE]

Batting average relative to the league is an important way of measuring skill for me, so the obvious choice is Gwynn. His arm was very good, not quite like Clemente or Kaline, but he could make throws that were well above average, his glove well he had 5 gold gloves in his career. Speed well early in his career he stole alot of bases and was ALWAYS one of the smartest baserunners around. His bat well he didnt have the same Pop alot of players did but i personally believe power is the least important of the 5 player tools in fact I really only look at 4 tools, hitting, glove, arm, and speed. If a player is a really good power hitter then he qualifies as a good hitter. Homeruns are often rally killers, they clear the bases and its always tougher for a pitcher to throw with runners on.
Gwynn has the clear edge over Reggie Jackson(with the premise that strikeouts are worse than other outs), Kaline and Clemente are very close but like i said ill give it to Gwynn based on the superior offensive numbers.
The only edge Clemente has is power and even thats not that great... Gwynn has a better OPS no matter how you cut the cake. He also struck out a third as often as Clemente. Kaline has a BA 40 pts lower than Gwynn.

[pjf]

Batting average relative to the league is an important way of measuring skill for me, so the obvious choice is Gwynn. His arm was very good, not quite like Clemente or Kaline, but he could make throws that were well above average, his glove well he had 5 gold gloves in his career. Speed well early in his career he stole alot of bases and was ALWAYS one of the smartest baserunners around. His bat well he didnt have the same Pop alot of players did but i personally believe power is the least important of the 5 player tools in fact I really only look at 4 tools, hitting, glove, arm, and speed. If a player is a really good power hitter then he qualifies as a good hitter. Homeruns are often rally killers, they clear the bases and its always tougher for a pitcher to throw with runners on.
Gwynn has the clear edge over Reggie Jackson(with the premise that strikeouts are worse than other outs), Kaline and Clemente are very close but like i said ill give it to Gwynn based on the superior offensive numbers.
The only edge Clemente has is power and even thats not that great... Gwynn has a better OPS no matter how you cut the cake. He also struck out a third as often as Clemente. Kaline has a BA 40 pts lower than Gwynn.

You made some very good points about Tony Gwynn. This (along with the posts above) give some specific reasons which can be accepted rejected or debated. Also, it gives some younger members who never saw these guys (Maris,for example) an idea of what they were like. Only one part of your post puzzles me. Your comment about home runs. If our team has guys on first and third a single usually scores one, a home run three. There is no guarantee that a rally, any rally will continue. A run (bird) in the hand is worth... As Ralph Kiner said Home Run hitters drive Cadilacs.

[BillyF29]

Of the five mentioned, I'd be inclined to take Reggie, who countless clutch performances made him the superstar of his era. I know sabermetrics aren't kind to Reggie, but as I do more research, the more flaws I find in things like Win Shares and such. Give me the guy who can just get it done when it matters.

1. Reggie
2. Clemente
3. Kaline
4. Crawford
5. Gwynn (Great at hitting for average, but didn't generate runs as well as the others, much like Ichiro today)

[sschirmer]

I think Clemente's arm and defense would put him over the top here.

[iPod]

Double X, No reflection on your poll, you listed great some great names but it constantly amazes me how Roger Maris is so often overlooked. Two time MVP ( how many of the others can claim this ? ), Gold Glove winner, 7 All-Star Games, Seven World Series. He is probably the perfect example of why numbers don't tell you everything about a ballplayers ability. Mantle: " Roger was as good a player as any I ever played with or against." Played in both leagues and in 1967 set a Cardinals record of 7 RBI's in the World Series. Credited with saving the World Series against the Giants with a catch and throw holding Mays at third setting up McCovey's final out. Maris also played several seasons hurt after '61 playing with a wrist injury which was either misdiagnosed or kept from him by the Yankees.The result was loss of power and a shortened career. On a career basis I would go with Kaline, Clemente and Jackson but as a ballplayer Maris could hold his own with any one of them. Those who played with or against him know how good he was and his determination and hardnosed play was an asset to any team.Too bad history forgets Roger Maris the ballplayer vs the guy who hit '61 home runs.

Mays was on second. Matty Alou was the one who held up at third.

[538280]

Reggie, and it's not even that close. Reggie far surpasses Kaline and Clemente as hitters, and even though both were significantly better fielders, we have to remember that hitting is much, much, much more important than fielding when comparing corner OFers. The only one who I could see a legitimate argument for is Gwynn. If you are one of those people who favors contact over power, feel free to take Gwynn. I firmly disagree that contact is more valuable than power, but that's one of those things that everyone's set it their ways about, and I"m not convincing anyone, so I understand it if you take Gwynn. However you're thinking with your heart and not your head if you take Kaline or Clemente, even though I much prefer Reggie, as a person and as a player.

[Naliamegod]

Ugh... this insanely hard and I'm probably end up going to jump back between players here since it just seems to go down to personal tastes of what you prefer.

I guess Tony Gwynn *will probably change opinions in a week*