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Joe Jackson's Innocence

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  • Joe Jackson's Innocence

    Kenesaw Landis banned Joe Jackson from baseball forever due to his supposed "part" in the 1919 Black Sox scandal. Now let me give you some numbers and facts to show that Jackson was CLEARLY innocent.

    In the 8 games Joe had a .375 Avg which was the highest of the series. The 2nd highest was the other innocent yet banned player Buck Weaver who batted .324. Joe also had 12 hits which is number 1 of the series. 2nd is also Weaver with 11. He also had 3 doubles which is 2nd to Weavers 4. He had 5 runs which is 2nd best in the series. weaver had 4 which was 3rd best. Jackson had 6 rbis which was 3rd best in the series. However Weaver had none in the series but that was probably because his guilty teammates didnt wanna get on base. It was also reported that Jackson received $5,000 from the scandal but he tried giving it to Charlie Comiskey however Comiskey told him to keep it. Jackson also begged to be benched the whole series but was forced to play. But again looking at the numbers Jackson had the stats to be MVP had his team won. Now I ask you try saying that is playing badly so my team loses.
    352
    I believe that Joe Jackson deliberately under-performed during the 1919 World Series.
    14.77%
    52
    I believe Joe Jackson tried his best to win the 1919 World Series.
    45.74%
    161
    I believe Joe Jackson accepted money specificly for throwing games during the 1919 World Series.
    49.43%
    174
    I believe that Jackson tried to return the money to management.
    21.88%
    77
    I support reinstating Jackson to Baseball's eligilbe list for the Hall of Fame.
    57.95%
    204
    I support banning Joe from the Hall of Fame permanently.
    24.15%
    85
    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 09-05-2008, 06:00 PM.
    "I don't like to sound egotistical, but every time I stepped up to the plate with a bat in my hands, I couldn't help but feel sorry for the pitcher."
    -Rogers Hornsby-

    "People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."
    -Rogers Hornsby-

    Just a note to all the active members of BBF, I consider all of you the smartest baseball people I have ever communicated with and love everyday I am on here. Thank you all!

  • #2
    Let me ask you a question: does being illiterate make you guilty of a crime, in which your actions clearly demonstrate that you were merely under a misunderstanding?

    If no, then Jackson was innocent.


    And he wasn't banned forever; only "lifetime". Since he is dead, he can now be inducted into the Hall of Fame.

    JACKSON FOR THE HALL!
    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 09-05-2008, 06:02 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Jackson made a confession of his role in the scandal. The confessions were ultimately stolen, and thus inadmissible at trial, but the content was published in many newspapers. We have a full record of what Jackson himself says he did.
      Last edited by Bill Burgess; 09-05-2008, 06:03 PM.
      Rooting the Reds home.

      Comment


      • #4
        Judge Landis entered with a bang. There is no doubt he was the best man for that particular job. He did it swiftly and he did it correctly. There is no second chance when it comes to game-fixing. Americans will excuse anyone for anything and love to criticize those that must take a stand and act. Jackson is as guilty as the rest. There is no degree of culpability here. He was in the meetings, he wispered like the rest, he deceived his teammates, he received his payoff and he took the field and watched Cicotte plunk the first batter as a symbol of the fix. Argue the merits of his involvement but nevertheless he was involved. I'll grant you Landis was arbitrary and basically a hinderance to the evolution of the game but this one time he got it right.
        Last edited by Bill Burgess; 09-05-2008, 06:04 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by bkmckenna
          I'll grant you Landis was arbitrary and basically a hinderance to the evolution of the game but this one time he got it right.
          I'll grant everything you said previous to that, but in doing what the owners wanted him to do, I think he got it wrong.
          Last edited by Bill Burgess; 09-05-2008, 06:05 PM.
          "I think about baseball when I wake up in the morning. I think about it all day and I dream about it at night. The only time I don't think about it is when I'm playing it."
          Carl Yastrzemski

          Comment


          • #6
            This has been gone over ad nauseum. Jackson's grand jury testimony survives, and he admits in it that he agreed to take the money. The only question is whether -- as he claims -- he took it merely to allow the conspirators to show that the gamblers that they had the ChiSox' best hitter in on the fix and he could play any way he wanted, or he in fact agreed that he would fix the series.
            Last edited by Bill Burgess; 09-05-2008, 06:06 PM.
            sigpicIt's not whether you fall -- everyone does -- but how you come out of the fall that counts.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Ursa Major
              This has been gone over ad nauseum.
              And will be until those of us who believe he should in the hall get our way.
              "I think about baseball when I wake up in the morning. I think about it all day and I dream about it at night. The only time I don't think about it is when I'm playing it."
              Carl Yastrzemski

              Comment


              • #8
                Yes, he was innocent. Totally. Confession? Not worth the paper it was printed on. Asked to sign an X on a paper he couldn't read? Told by Comiskey's attorney that if he signed, all would go back to normal?

                What a joke? But one this house has shown itself incapable of penetrating.

                Bill Burgess

                Comment


                • #9
                  I'm not doubting you, Bill, but could you point me to where there's some proof of that? Not sure if I missed a book or an earlier thread about this, but I hadn't heard that before.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    --Bill "knows" lots of things that nobody else does. I think he was hanging around in the corners at some of the Black Sox meetings.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Landis could have worked and a made a decision for baseball, but instead he chose autonomy. The culpability of the ringleaders was never in question and their banishment was justified, but Landis and the owners refused to look at the culpability of Jackson and the extenuating circumstances. What Landis did in affect was give the owners a stronger foothold on baseball.

                      You can arguably link the beginnings of sport as big business to this event. Not as just a business; I think we’ll agree that people saw a way to take advantage of the pastime to make money, which is fine because baseball probably wouldn’t have become as organized as it did without the influx of revenue, but at some point, perhaps this one, greed really started to take over. The following year the rules changed to make the game more “exciting” to people who probably wouldn’t have flocked to the gates otherwise.
                      "I think about baseball when I wake up in the morning. I think about it all day and I dream about it at night. The only time I don't think about it is when I'm playing it."
                      Carl Yastrzemski

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Mason Dixon,

                        I can't point anyone to any one source, unfortunately. I have derived my opinions after reading countless sources, over many, many years.

                        I'll just state that everyone in that courtroom was a snake. The judge, Landis, Comiskey, Comiskey's attorney Austrian, everyone. They all had their own agendas.

                        Jackson needed his own attorney badly, but was under the impression that Austrian was HIS attorney. A terribly fateful & fatal error. But he was gullible enough to believe that the White Sox management had his best interests at heart.

                        If you wonder why Commie would sell his own star downriver, and that didn't make any sense, you would be right. But Commie was played by Landis, who beguiled him into believing that if the Sox copped a plea, he go easy on them and go after the gamblers. Only slap the players on the wrist.

                        And Commie went for the bait. Swallowed it hook, line and sinker. He told Austrian to have Jackson make a false confession, so Landis would be appeased if he thought he knew the truth, spank them gently with probably a light fine, and go after the gamblers with fury.

                        By the time Commie awoke from his dream, Jackson was suckered into a fake confession, and Commie had to back-peddle into a deal with Arnold Rothstein to steal the written testimonies from the DA's office. But it was too late. Jackson was implicated, and had to give the most convoluted, contorted witness stand testimony on record.

                        Commie was just such a sucker/fool. He got what he had coming.

                        Bill Burgess

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          --Bill, you do have a terrific imagination. Kudos.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I don't know about Bill, but I derive my opinions from what I've read over the years, what I've discounted as speculation and what I've see with my own eyes. I don't just take everything in the context of baseball's influence on history. I also take a look at history's influence on baseball. I haven't read any opinions of Bills that aren't plausible.

                            I've been wrong, but I know I've been correct as well, and I don't sell anything I say as fact. They are my opinions.

                            Originally posted by MasonDixon
                            I'm not doubting you, Bill, but could you point me to where there's some proof of that?

                            The proof is in the pudding; understanding who these men were, what they were trying to achive and who they would screw to get there. You can read opinions about these men all you like, but until you look at the facts, the personalities and study human nature, and form your own opinion you'll be one of the people who don't know what to think or what to believe. I don't mean you personally, I'm speaking in general. That's why i get upset when people try to tell me I'm a moron for what I believe, when all they can do is show what others believe and nod there heads in agreement.
                            "I think about baseball when I wake up in the morning. I think about it all day and I dream about it at night. The only time I don't think about it is when I'm playing it."
                            Carl Yastrzemski

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Running Shoes, I do not dispute that Jackson now should be in the Hall, but this does not mean we should re-hash the question of his guilt or innocence. And those who think that he "signed a confession he couldn't read with an 'X'" or was ill-advised by his attorney, should read his grand jury testimony, available here. A good lawyer might have prevented him from testifying, but he did so and articulately explicates how he knowingly took money from gamblers fixing the series and didn't report it until later. You can't 'fake' a confession that detailed and forthright.
                              sigpicIt's not whether you fall -- everyone does -- but how you come out of the fall that counts.

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