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  • Originally posted by Ursa Major View Post
    Peter Angelo of the Orioles. His only saving grace is that he ran the best baseball announcer this side of Vin Scully out of town, and the Giants got him.

    Finley is a tough call. He was a drunken, bullying tightwad who chased his best players from the team. But, he was an innovator in the Bill Veeck mode who really broke through the stuffiness of the game -- designated hitters and runners, colored balls, wild uniforms, facial hair on players, ballgirls in hotpants, and Billyball (i.e., wild baserunning that launched Rickey Henderson's career).
    I agree with you on Angelos.

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    • Originally posted by Solair Wright View Post
      Well, not exactly. He has had some issues, and those have all but been fixed. I reiterate that he's far from a bad owner, but still not one of the best. I'm still content with Walter O'Malley as the worst owner in baseball.
      I was referring to O'Malley, not Loria. What I asked is not really applicable to Loria. I'm no fan of O'Malley, but outside of the Brooklyn perspective, he didn't seem to do that badly. So how does that make him the worst owner if you're coming from an unbiased approach?
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      • Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
        Going to an untapped market and winning makes one a bad owner?

        I know you mean something else, but that is what you said.
        Walter O'Malley was less interested in an untapped market than he was in a whole lot of free prime real estate. When the citizens of Los Angeles flinched at giving him Chavez Ravine, he was ready to bolt Los Angeles.

        Here's a link which contains a scan of an article from May 24th 1958 in which O'Malley threatens to leave for Toronto, among other places, if the people of Los Angeles don't cave in to his demands:

        http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/thed...ronto-dod.html

        Walter was the kind of guy where: if at any time some little green men stepped out of a spaceship and offered him more land and more incentives, he'd have moved the team to Mars.

        Walter O'Malley's fan base was fanatical enough to have made his team the number one money maker in the league; this is indisputable. O'Malley was the first guy in sports history to tell such a fan base that this didn't matter because he believed he could make more money elsewhere. Walter told everybody loyalty and support counted for nothing, and that the fans really didn't matter. In this sense, he was a pioneer.

        Walter O'Malley was responsible for demolishing the perception/reality of bonds of loyalty linking team, player, fan and community. The fact that it's all very obviously about the money and nothing else is the biggest problem with baseball today. Players are largely mercenary and teams want to bleed every last cent out of everybody. The best seats at ballparks these days are unaffordable and mostly bought by corporate entities who often don't use them. Real fans, at least places like New York, are relegated to the nosebleeds, which run $20 to $50. Ballparks are shrunken to maximize season ticket sales; if you can't afford some sort of season plan - you no longer matter.

        Sure, it was always about the money at the end of the day, but O'Malley stripped the veneer of civility from the whole set-up and paved the way for every greedy fan-hostile scheme imaginable - up to personal seat licenses and beyond. He was the forerunner.

        O'Malley set the benchmark.

        Which makes him the obvious choice for Worst Owner Ever.
        Last edited by Mongoose; 03-18-2009, 03:03 PM.


        "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

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        • Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
          I was referring to O'Malley, not Loria. What I asked is not really applicable to Loria. I'm no fan of O'Malley, but outside of the Brooklyn perspective, he didn't seem to do that badly. So how does that make him the worst owner if you're coming from an unbiased approach?
          Well, I just explained that in the above post. Even from the perspective of his own petty self-interest, though, he was short sighted.

          Basically, Stoneham was going to move the Giants no matter what. If O'Malley had done nothing, he would have had the NL franchise for the #1 market all to himself. As it turned out, he made himself a legendary pariah and wound up with the NL franchise for the #2 market. What a genius!

          As stated, he was so blinded by all that free acreage he failed to realize the money he could have generated just by taking Robert Moses' generous offer of a ballpark at Flushing Meadows. After the Yankees dynasty ended in 1964 he would have owned the media capital of the world.

          And what would that have meant?

          The Mets have been a poorly run organization for almost their entire history; they are a start-up franchise with no history of their own. Their fan base wound up rooting for them by default. Even so, their franchise valuation is higher than that of the Dodgers. This means the Mets have higher potential earning power than the Dodgers - and no wonder: their market is bigger and baseball crazy.

          If a team with the Dodgers' history and pedigree had remained in New York for all their championship years, they'd almost certainly be worth more than even the Yankees. They'd be a marketable brand in a way the Mets aren't and will never be - and that the Dodgers can never have a chance to be again.

          Yeah, O'Malley made a lot of money, but if he hadn't been fueled by greed so intense that it blinded him, he would have made even more money.

          Which makes Walter O'Malley not only a moral pariah, but a fool.


          "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Brad Harris View Post
            Marge suffered from foot-in-mouth syndrome, a product of a previous generation in a politically correct world and a woman in a men's club. She was hardly the stain on the game that people make her out to be, particularly in light of the villianous and excrable cast of characters her ignorant remarks allegedly catapult her ahead of.
            I'm sorry, but I must take issue here. A Major League owner is a highly visible spokesperson for the sport. To have one of them making comments praising Hitler and using the "N word" in the public arena cannot be excused as a "product of a previous generation in a politically correct world". It's beyond ignorant, it's spectacularly stupid. My father was a product of a previous generation in a politically correct world, and from Alabama to boot, and I never heard him use that word.

            Schott was a disgrace to the game, and a poor excuse for a human being. Remember when an umpire (was it John McSherry?) collapsed and died of a heart attack on the field on opening day in Cincinnatti? Schott's reaction was "first it snows, and now this!" Maybe you can name a more despicable owner, I can't think of one.
            They call me Mr. Baseball. Not because of my love for the game; because of all the stitches in my head.

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            • Originally posted by ol' aches and pains View Post
              I'm sorry, but I must take issue here. A Major League owner is a highly visible spokesperson for the sport. To have one of them making comments praising Hitler and using the "N word" in the public arena cannot be excused as a "product of a previous generation in a politically correct world". It's beyond ignorant, it's spectacularly stupid. My father was a product of a previous generation in a politically correct world, and from Alabama to boot, and I never heard him use that word.

              Schott was a disgrace to the game, and a poor excuse for a human being. Remember when an umpire (was it John McSherry?) collapsed and died of a heart attack on the field on opening day in Cincinnatti? Schott's reaction was "first it snows, and now this!" Maybe you can name a more despicable owner, I can't think of one.
              Oh, I can name one; and so can you.

              Who was more destructive to baseball?

              A bigoted fool who made numerous ignorant statements?

              or

              A guy who

              * Stripped the biggest media center in the world of 2/3 of its baseball teams, thereby ending baseball's golden age and paving the way for baseball to be deposed as National Pastime?

              * Rewarded his fan base's decades of strong support through good times and bad by moving the team 3000 miles away to get his hands on a few hundred acres of prime real estate?

              * Showed the world that baseball is just another ugly cutthroat business in which loyalty meant nothing, contrary to what baseball had been telling telling congress, the courts and the American people for decades?

              And as far as racism goes, what did Marge Schott ever do except open her mouth? A big reason O'Malley wanted out of Ebbets Field was because African-American people had moved into the neighborhood. Schott might have talked the talk, but O'Malley walked the walk.

              It was Branch Rickey who engineered the breaking of the color barrier. As soon as O'Malley forced Rickey out, Jackie Robinson knew his days were numbered. Robinson was unceremoniously traded to the Giants, led by Leo Durocher whom Robinson despised, at the end of the 1956 season. Jackie Robinson retired rather than report. Walter O'Malley thereby forced Robinson into retirement and caused his career to end on an ugly note. Shirley Povich wrote a good column that seems to suggest how O'Malley felt about Robinson and African-Americans in general:

              http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...pagewanted=all

              O'Malley, who had bought out Rickey's stock in the Dodgers several years earlier, and Buzzy Bavasi, then the Dodgers' general manager, never particularly liked Robinson, whose combative nature was just what most club owners look for in a managerial or front-office candidate. When the Dodger owner was once asked before Robinson was traded if he were considering Robinson as a potential manager, O'Malley puffed on his cigar. ''Robinson can't manage himself,'' O'Malley snapped. ''How can you expect him to manage 25 ballplayers?''

              Nice.

              In answer to your question: O'Malley is a more despicable owner.
              Last edited by Mongoose; 03-18-2009, 06:54 PM.


              "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

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              • Thanks for the unbiased, objective opinion I was looking for.
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                • Originally posted by Mongoose View Post

                  Here's a link which contains a scan of an article from May 24th 1958 in which O'Malley threatens to leave for Toronto, among other places, if the people of Los Angeles don't cave in to his demands:

                  http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/thed...ronto-dod.html

                  .

                  The story convieniently doesn't mention that O'Malley had a deal in place with LA city officials that the Dodgers would be able to build a stadium at the Chavez Ravine site if they would relocate to LA.

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                  • Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
                    Thanks for the unbiased, objective opinion I was looking for.
                    I detect a hint of sarcasm in this answer. Perhaps I'm mistaken. If you feel any of the points I've raised are not valid or accurate, please explain why.


                    "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

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                    • Originally posted by Mongoose View Post
                      I detect a hint of sarcasm in this answer. Perhaps I'm mistaken. If you feel any of the points I've raised are not valid or accurate, please explain why.
                      I feel you speak well for your side of the argument. I'll leave it at that.
                      Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                      Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                      Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                      Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                      Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

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                      • Originally posted by EdTarbusz View Post
                        The story convieniently doesn't mention that O'Malley had a deal in place with LA city officials that the Dodgers would be able to build a stadium at the Chavez Ravine site if they would relocate to LA.
                        I believe the whole sordid story is on the scanned newspaper page that's on the linked page.

                        Either way, this just goes to show you that Walter wasn't interested in being a "pioneer"; he was interested in the big land grab. If he didn't get the big land grab, he was moving the team again.

                        It's too bad some Martians didn't show up at that time with a better deal: then Walter would have been a "pioneer" in Outer Space. Knowing the situation, he'd have persuaded Stoneham to move the Giants to Uranus to cut travel costs for the league...


                        "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mongoose View Post
                          I believe the whole sordid story is on the scanned newspaper page that's on the linked page.

                          Either way, this just goes to show you that Walter wasn't interested in being a "pioneer"; he was interested in the big land grab. If he didn't get the big land grab, he was moving the team again.

                          It's too bad some Martians didn't show up at that time with a better deal: then Walter would have been a "pioneer" in Outer Space. Knowing the situation, he'd have persuaded Stoneham to move the Giants to Uranus to cut travel costs for the league...
                          If LA reneged on the promised deal, why shouldn't O'Malley consider leaving the area?

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                          • As far as Marge Schott being a bad owner, I certainly don't agree with her Hitler comments and what she said about the "Million Dollar N______," and a lot of other things that she did like asing that the Reds didn't need scouts because "all they do is sit around and watch baseball games".

                            But I sure appreciated the $3.50 ticket, $1 hot dog, $1 soda and $5.00 parking while she was the owner.

                            I think she was just an over-zealot fan who bought the team and was out of her league.

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