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Joe DiMaggio

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  • #16
    all those top-notch yankee players with all those top-notch ballplayers playing beside - at what point do we subtract from the individual for the strength of the supporting cast?

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    • #17
      Originally posted by KCGHOST
      It is tough to rank a guy as a top ten player in the game when he is probably is, at best, 3rd all-time at his position and most likely 5th. I know he missed three years to the war but do those three years offset the difference in his work and what Cobb, Mays, Mantle, and Speaker actually did?

      As for him and Williams, no matter what stat you pick, cumulative or qualitative, Joe isn't in the same league as a hitter and Williams lost 5 years to wars not just three.

      That said Joe is definitely a top-tier HoFer.
      Who's arguing that? Those that pick Joe as greater than Ted are doing so as an overall/all-around player, not just as a hitter. I don't rate Joe anywhere near Ted as a hitter, but combine that with his running and fielding, and I think you've got just as good of a player, especially when you consider the championships.
      Johnson and now Goligoski gone.
      I hope that's all.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by mordeci
        Dimaggio was a great player, but he was no Ted Williams.
        You got that right. As much as I love Ted Williams, I have to admit, at least Joe brought a glove to the game with him.
        I'm a Ramblin' Wreck from Georgia Tech and a Hell of an Engineer!

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        • #19
          I like this line from the book Joe Dimaggio: The hero's life by Ben Cramer

          paraphrased

          Ted WIlliams wanted to be the greatest hitter of all-time, but Dimaggio wanted to be the greatest all-around player the game ever saw. He strived to be just not great at one thing but at everything and damned you if you were to get in his way.
          "I was pitching one day when my glasses clouded up on me. I took them off to polish them. When I looked up to the plate, I saw Jimmie Foxx. The sight of him terrified me so much that I haven't been able to wear glasses since." - Left Gomez

          "(Lou) Gehrig never learned that a ballplayer couldn't be good every day." - Hank Gowdy

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          • #20
            How anyone could ever, then or now, consider Ted in the same class of ballplayer as Joe is beyond my comprehension. The only card that Ted has to play is in the batter's box, and even there, Joe trumps him on the road in BA, Ted's supposed bastion of strength.

            Mix in defense, and Ted just isn't in the same class. And during their playing careers, no one ever thought he was. Ted only has longevity over Joe, and they both lost their prime seasons to the war.

            On the road:

            ------BA/Onbase/SLG.
            Joe: .333/.405/.610
            Ted: .328/.468/.615

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            • #21
              Originally posted by [email protected]
              How anyone could ever, then or now, consider Ted in the same class of ballplayer as Joe is beyond my comprehension. The only card that Ted has to play is in the batter's box, and even there, Joe trumps him on the road in BA, Ted's supposed bastion of strength.

              Mix in defense, and Ted just isn't in the same class. And during their playing careers, no one ever thought he was. Ted only has longevity over Joe, and they both lost their prime seasons to the war.

              On the road:

              ------BA/Onbase/SLG.
              Joe: .333/.405/.610
              Ted: .328/.468/.615
              Bill, I'd say 63 points of OBP, 5 points of SLG, and a longer career are plenty to make up for 5 points of BA and more defensive value. Also, the career numbers are a bit deceiving since Ted had a worse decline. Plus, even if Fenway really helped Ted, we shouldn't just discount everything he did there.
              Last edited by 538280; 11-10-2005, 03:14 PM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by KCGHOST
                It is tough to rank a guy as a top ten player in the game when he is probably is, at best, 3rd all-time at his position and most likely 5th. .
                There is absolutely, certainly, no way in the world no matter how much you skew numbers a way to put DiMaggio 3rd on your CF list. It is almost just as bad to put him 4th, and 5th is still too high but I suppose somewhat reasonable. After the top 5 though, there is a very large gap, so DiMaggio can slip in at 6th, but still far behind the 5th man. After DiMag at 6th, and Torriente at 7th, the list takes a huge drop. My top 10 CFers, just so you can see what I'm talking about:

                1.Charleston
                2.Mays
                3.Mantle
                4.Cobb
                5.Speaker
                6.DiMaggio
                7.Torriente
                8.Wynn
                9.Snider
                10.Hamilton

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                • #23
                  --Looking at road averages only always hurts a guy with a good home park. It gives that park to whoever he is being compared to, while withholding it from him. Their numbers at neutral parks (elimanting both Yankee Stadium and Fenway park games from both men) would be more accurate.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by [email protected]
                    Randy,

                    Think high pop-ups down the RF line, not line drives. Think sky-high pop-ups.
                    I was thinking that. And Ruth was no Mel Ott.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by 538280
                      There is absolutely, certainly, no way in the world no matter how much you skew numbers a way to put DiMaggio 3rd on your CF list. It is almost just as bad to put him 4th, and 5th is still too high but I suppose somewhat reasonable. After the top 5 though, there is a very large gap, so DiMaggio can slip in at 6th, but still far behind the 5th man. After DiMag at 6th, and Torriente at 7th, the list takes a huge drop. My top 10 CFers, just so you can see what I'm talking about:

                      1.Charleston

                      6.DiMaggio
                      I like how you just "assume" Charleston was that much better than Joe D. Thats a lot to take for granted don't ya think.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
                        I like how you just "assume" Charleston was that much better than Joe D. Thats a lot to take for granted don't ya think.
                        Anybody who rates Joe DiMaggio above Oscar Charleston just doesn't know much about Oscar Charleston.

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                        • #27
                          I have Joe 17th amongst all-time MLB position players. I always thought that he was overrated by the public but underrated on BBF.

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                          • #28
                            --I can't see Charleston ahead of Cobb or Mays, due to his quicker loss of skills (he got too heavy to play CF by his early 30s). That same lack of longevity is an issue with Speaker (although he may have been enough better at his peak to overcome that). League quality is a huge issue with putting him ahead of Mantle and he is unlikely to have any kind of peak edge on The Mick. I have him ahead of DiMaggio, but could see it the other way. I've got Griffey and Snider ahead of Torriente too and I don't even want to get started on Jimmy Freakin Wynn again.
                            --The Babe hit more than his share of tape measure shots. That doesn't mean all his HR or even most of them would have gone out of Yellowstone. He had to have had a few cheapies to the short porch. More relevant to to my earlier comment is that park effects are not adjusted for handedness and Yankee Stadium was unquestionably much tougher on RH hitters. Therefore standard park adjustments are going to short change RH hitters at Yankee and must then overrate LH hitters. That is true even if Yankee Stadium actually hurt Ruth's raw numbers over what he may have done at another park.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by 538280
                              Anybody who rates Joe DiMaggio above Oscar Charleston just doesn't know much about Oscar Charleston.
                              I was referring to you having him as SO MUCH better than Joe D, not the fact that you simply "have him ahead."

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                              • #30
                                My top CFers:

                                Negro Leagues = Red
                                Pre-1900 = Blue

                                1. Cobb
                                2. Mays
                                3. Charleston
                                4. Speaker
                                5. DiMaggio
                                6. Mantle
                                7. Bell
                                8. Poles
                                9. Snider
                                10. Dihigo
                                11. Griffey
                                12. Pete Hill
                                13. Irvin
                                14. Torrienti
                                15. Roush
                                16. Milan
                                17. Carey
                                18. Ashburn
                                19. McAleer
                                20. Edmonds
                                21. Lange
                                Last edited by Bill Burgess; 11-10-2005, 05:22 PM.

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