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Baseball's Mount Rushmore

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  • #46
    thanx, ww.
    and despite being thought of by many as the better player, there is a reason why larry doby crossed the color lone four months after jackie.
    "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Wee Willie
      Sorry, but I completely disagree with what you said about Jackie. Jackie's accomplishments and place in baseball history are much more a result of his courage and inner strength than "luck in circumstance". Comparing the frequent hell of his experience to "winning the lottery" is invalid and trivializes the monumental responsibility he bore. And to say that paying such a tribute to Jackie smacks of racism is flat-out insulting. I put him on the mountain not because he was the "first black", but because he succeeded while knowing that his life and career were at risk day in and day out. He was the target of more hatred than any player before or since. The success of integration in baseball and other sports was dependent on how Jackie would respond to the slings and arrows of bigotry. He fought off the rage to retaltiate 1000 times for every time he lashed out. This ate at him tremendously and probably led to his early death. And there were the eyes of African-Americans constantly watching every move, and praying he didn't fail, since his success would be a frame of reference for building a more tolerant baseball community, which could lead to eventually a more tolerant country.

      So no, it's not just about giving an "atta-boy" to someone who was in the right place at the right time. It's rewarding the person most responsible for engendering the most profound change in the cultural dynamic of the game.

      And by the way, Robinson judged strictly as a player, is most certainly a top-100 player just by his on-the-field accomplishments. Just by being one of the top 6 or so second-baseman is enough to get you on that list. There have been other black players who were better, so if you went by just ability alone, I'd have someone like Aaron, Mays, Paige, or Gibson over Jackie.

      But my main point is that Jackie's acheivements in his dealings with his enemies are what makes him an important figure in baseball and American history.
      Well put. Top 100 player, top notch human being.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
        Top 100 player.
        Not in my book. Top 200, yes. I just can't put anyone in my top 100 with fewer than 1,000R and (meaning both) 1,000RBI.

        But, back to the point. I agree with everything that Sirmudgeon said, but I think he has to realize that we are not celebrating the player, or even the man. We are celebrating an event that should have never have had to take place. Very few people could name even one stat of Jackie's without resorting the records (and I think that includes us.) All of us knows what his name is synonomous with, unfortunately.
        Johnson and now Goligoski gone.
        I hope that's all.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Chisox
          Not in my book. Top 200, yes. I just can't put anyone in my top 100 with fewer than 1,000R and (meaning both) 1,000RBI.

          But, back to the point. I agree with everything that Sirmudgeon said, but I think he has to realize that we are not celebrating the player, or even the man. We are celebrating an event that should have never have had to take place. Very few people could name even one stat of Jackie's without resorting the records (and I think that includes us.) All of us knows what his name is synonomous with, unfortunately.
          I am celebrating the man, and I think a lot of other people are, too. It was the man that made it possible. Great events need great men/women to bring them to fruition, and that's what Jackie did.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Chisox
            Not in my book. Top 200, yes. I just can't put anyone in my top 100 with fewer than 1,000R and (meaning both) 1,000RBI.

            But, back to the point. I agree with everything that Sirmudgeon said, but I think he has to realize that we are not celebrating the player, or even the man. We are celebrating an event that should have never have had to take place. Very few people could name even one stat of Jackie's without resorting the records (and I think that includes us.) All of us knows what his name is synonomous with, unfortunately.
            Of course we're celebrating the man -- a wonderful athlete and an amazingly courageous American.

            Without the man, the event wouldn't have happened!

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            • #51
              My final four votes for players would go to Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Jackie Robinson and Ted Williams. Maybe we could put some non-players under them like Alexander Cartwright, Happy Chandler, Ban Johnson and Marvin Miller.

              I'd also have one carved into the limestone-crusted hills of the Texas Hill Country to honor a quartet from the Lone Star State: Rogers Hornsby, Frank Robinson, Ernie Banks and Nolan Ryan.
              Never confuse character with geography --- Red Smith
              Astros Daily

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              • #52
                Guys, I like the idea of a baseball Mount Rushmore (not that it'll ever happen). But wouldn't it be more reasonable to have 9 guys on the monument, symbolizing the 9 players on a team:

                P - Roger Clemens (sorry, he's up there)
                C - can't quite figure this one out
                1B - Gehrig
                2B - Robinson
                3B - A-Rod
                SS - Wagner
                OF - Ruth
                OF - Williams
                OF - Mays

                Just a thought.

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                • #53
                  "My final four votes for players would go to Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Jackie Robinson and Ted Williams."

                  hereya go, poptop.
                  Attached Files
                  "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by serumgard
                    ...wouldn't it be more reasonable to have 9 guys on the monument...
                    we'd hafta move it over to the rockies or the sierra, but it could be done.
                    "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by shlevine42
                      Of course we're celebrating the man -- a wonderful athlete and an amazingly courageous American.

                      Without the man, the event wouldn't have happened!
                      We are celebrating the EVENT that the man represents. If Larry Doby, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, or whoever was the first, then we would we celebrating him.
                      Johnson and now Goligoski gone.
                      I hope that's all.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Chisox
                        We are celebrating the EVENT that the man represents. If Larry Doby, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, or whoever was the first, then we would we celebrating him.
                        But they weren't the first. Jackie was. And again, it's much more about just being "the first". It was his character, fortitude, and perseverence that allowed him to triumph and succeed in an environment where many, many would have failed. Thus the man should be celebrated.
                        Last edited by Wee Willie; 10-05-2005, 01:49 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Willie has it right again.

                          When you focus on “the event,” you dismiss or ignore the role played by the man who made it happen... a man who endured race baiting, death threats and vicious attempts to drive him out of the game.

                          It took superhuman courage for Jackie to take the field each day, and incredible strength of character to withstand the abuse that was directed toward him. And in the face of all of that, it is simply amazing that he was able to perform at the level he did.

                          The bigotry aimed at Robinson was one of the most disgraceful chapters in baseball history; Jackie's courage, nobility and eventual success is one of the most thrilling, and, in my opinion, the single most significant achievement in the history of the game.

                          No baseball fan -- no American -- can question Robinson's place on baseball’s Mt. Rushmore.
                          Last edited by shlevine42; 10-05-2005, 02:10 PM.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by west coast orange and black
                            thanx, ww.
                            and despite being thought of by many as the better player, there is a reason why larry doby crossed the color lone four months after jackie.
                            Other than the fact that Robinson played for the Dodgers and BR, what would that reason be?
                            I'm a Ramblin' Wreck from Georgia Tech and a Hell of an Engineer!

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by sschirmer
                              Other than the fact that Robinson played for the Dodgers and BR, what would that reason be?
                              I'm surprised that people are treating Jackie's breaking the color line as a random event, like winning the lottery, could have been anyone but Jackie just happened to be in the right place at the right time.

                              Rickey carefully chose Robinson, he needed someone with the baseball skills to be a star and also the character to be a hero/pioneer, the spirit to put up with years of abuse and come out standing.

                              Robinson: "Mr. Rickey, are you looking for a Negro who is afraid to fight back?"

                              Rickey: "I'm looking for a ballplayer with guts enough not to fight back."

                              Jackie Robinson was not an accident of history.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Barnstormer
                                ...Rickey carefully chose Robinson, he needed someone with the baseball skills to be a star and also the character to be a hero/pioneer, the spirit to put up with years of abuse and come out standing.

                                Jackie Robinson was not an accident of history.
                                this is where i was going, stormer. thanx.
                                "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

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