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Let's Deal With Barry Bonds.

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  • Let's Deal With Barry Bonds.

    I am one of the few members who haven't dealt with Barry Bonds. I would like to see how others have approached this issue.

    I'd like to see where you ranked Barry at his apex, and where you rank him now as an all-around position player.

    Such as:

    Had him 6th, now have him 11th.

    Barry's Relative Stats:

    ----Relative BA-----Rel.Slg.-------Rel.onbase----Rel.ISO-------OPS+
    ---113.3 (t 83rd)---148.0 (4th)------133.3 (3rd)----213 (7th)-----182 (3rd)

    Hitting Stats Comparison Chart

    Bonds, Cobb, Wagner, Hornsby, Ruth, Gehrig, T. Williams, Mantle, Mays, Aaron, DiMaggio, Speaker, Lajoie, Musial, Collins, Crawford, J. Jackson, Wheat, Roush, Foxx, Clemente, Schmidt, Yaz, Anson, B. Williams, Kiner, Killebrew, Rose, Gwynn, Kaline, Greenberg, Waner, R. Jackson, Boggs, Gehringer, Brouthers, Delahanty, Simmons, Mize, Brett, F. Robinson, Ashburn, Sisler, Snider, Banks, Molitor, Keeler, Bench, Terry, Henderson.

    Code:
    Bonds------BA---Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    led league--2----0----0--0---2---1----1---1---8----7----0--10---9
    2nd league--0----0----0--0---5---3----1---0---3----1----0---4---3
    3rd league--1----0----0--0---1---6----0---1---0----1----1---1---2
    4th---------1----0----0--0---4---0----4---0---2----3----1---0---0
    5th---------0----0----0--0---0---1----0---3---1----1----2---0---1
    6th---------0----0----0--2---0---3----2---1---0----1----2---0---0
    
    Cobb--------BA--Hits-2B---3B---HR---R--RBI-TB---OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    led league--12---8----3----4----1---5---4---6----7----8----6---0--11
    2nd-league---3---3----4----4----2---2---2---2----7----3----1---1---3
    3rd----------1---3----4----2----2---2---1---2----0----3----2---0---1
    4th----------2---0----0----1----0---1---0---1----0----1----3---1---1
    5th----------1---0----0----1----0---2---1---0----1----0----0---1---0
    6th----------2---0----2----0----0---0---0---0----0----0----0---0---0
    
    Wagner-------BA--Hits-2B---3B---HR---R--RBI--TB--OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    led league----8---2----7----3----0---2---5----7---4----6----5---0--6
    2nd league----2---2----1----3----1---2---2----1---1----3----0---0--2
    3rd-----------0---5----3----2----0---2---2----4---2----2----2---0--2
    4th-----------2---3----0----0----1---2---3----2---1----1----0---1--1
    5th-----------1---1----1----0----2---1---1----2---2----0----0---0--0
    6th-----------1---0----0----1----2---0---1----0---0----1----0---1--0
    
    Hornsby-----BA---Hits-2B---3B--HR----R--RBI--TB---OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---8----4----4----2---2----5---4----7----9----9----0---3--12
    2nd league---2----1----1----1---2----1---1----2----1----1----0---1---1
    3rd----------1----1----1----1---3----0---2----0----1----1----0---0---0
    4th----------1----3----4----0---1----2---0----0----0----1----0---2---0
    5th----------0----0----0----0---5----0---0----0----0----1----0---0---0
    6th----------0----0----0----1---1----0---1----1----1----0----0---2---1
    
    Ruth---------BA---Hits-2B---3B---HR---R--RBI--TB---OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    led league----1----0----1----0---12---8---6----6----9---13----0--11--13
    2nd league----2----0----1----0----2---1---2--- 3----2----1----0---1---1
    3rd-----------2----0----1----0----1---0---0----2----1----1----0---1---2
    4th-----------1----3----0----0----0---0---3----0----2----0----0---0---0
    5th-----------1----0----0----0----0---1---0----0----0----0----0---0---0
    6th-----------0----2----1----1----0---1---1----0----0----0----0---0---0
    
    Gehrig------BA---Hits-2B---3B---HR--Runs--RBI--TB---OBA-SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    Led league---1----1----1----4----2----4----4----2----4----2---0---3--3
    2nd league---2----3----0----0----4----2----4----3----2----4---0---2--6
    3rd----------3----0----0----1----3----3----2----2----3----1---0---3--3
    4th----------0----1----0----0----1----2----2----0----0----3---0---0--0
    5th----------2----1----0----0----1----0----0----1----1----0---0---0--0
    6th----------1----0----1----0----1----0----0----1----0----0---0---1--0
    Ted Williams--BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA--SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    Led league-----6----0----2---0---4---6----4----6---12---8---0---8--9
    2nd in league--2----1----2---0---4---1----2----0----0---1---0---1--1
    3rd------------1----2----0---0---2---1----1----4----0---1---0---2--3
    4th------------1----1----2---0---0---1----1----0----0---2---0---0--0
    5th------------0----4----0---0---0---0----1----0----0---0---0---1--0
    6th------------0----0----0---0---3---0----0----0----1---0---0---1--0
    
    Mickey Mantle--BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR---Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    Led league------1----1----0---1---4----6----1----3---3---4---0---5--8
    2nd in league---1----0----1---0---3----2----3----4---5---0---0---3--3
    3rd-------------1----0----0---0---2----1----1----2---1---2---0---2--1
    4th-------------2----2----0---1---0----0----0----1---2---0---2---0--0
    5th-------------0----0----0---0---1----0----2----0---0---0---0---0--0
    6th-------------0----0----0---1---0----1----3----0---1---1---0---1--0
    Willie Mays----BA---Hits-2B--3B---HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    Led league------1----1----0---3----4---2----0----3---2---5---4---1--6
    2nd in league---3----1----1---1----1---5----2----5---1---3---0---1--1
    3rd-------------2----1----1---1----3---3----3----5---2---2---0---2--5
    4th-------------0----0----0---0----1---0----2----1---1---2---1---1--2
    5th-------------1----1----0---0----2---0----1----1---5---4---0---1--0
    6th-------------1----2----2---0----2---2----2----0---1---0---0---3--1
    
    Hank Aaron----BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR---Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    Led league-----2---2----4---0---4----3----4---8---0---4---0---0--3
    2nd in league--0---3----2---2---4----1----0---2---2---5---1---1--4
    3rd------------0---1----1---0---1----4----2---2---3---4---0---2--4
    4th------------3---0----1---2---2----2----2---2---1---1---2---2--1
    5th------------4---0----0---0---2----1----1---0---2---1---0---0--1
    6th------------0---3----1---0---2----1----1---1---1---2---2---0--2
    
    Joe DiMaggio---BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA--SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    Led league------2---0----0---1---2---1----2----3---0----2---0---0--1
    2nd in league---0---1----1---0---0---2----3----2---0----5---0---0--4
    3rd-------------2---1----0---4---1---0----3----1---2----0---0---0--2
    4th-------------0---2----1---0---5---0----1----1---3----0---0---0--0
    5th-------------0---0----0---0---2---2----1----2---0----0---0---0--1
    6th-------------0---1----1---0---1---1----1----0---0----1---0---0--0
    
    Tris Speaker--BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    Led league-----1---2----8---0---1---0----0----1---4---1---0---0--1
    2nd in league--2---1----3---1---2---4----1----3---3---2---0---1--4
    3rd------------7---2----1---1---0---2----1----2---4---4---1---0--5
    4th------------2---4----0---0---2---2----2----3---3---4---1---4--3
    5th------------1---2----0---0---0---0----0----1---1---2---3---2--3
    6th------------1---0----1---1---0---2----0----0---0---1---1---3--0
    
    Nap Lajoie---BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs--RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    Led league----3---4----5---0---1----1----3---4---2---4---0---0--3
    2nd in league-3---0----4---1---0----1----1---2---2---3---0---0--3
    3rd-----------1---1----1---0---1----0----2---0---1---2---0---0--0
    4th-----------1---1----1---0---0----1----1---2---1---0---0---0--1
    5th-----------0---1----0---0---0----0----1---0---1---0---0---0--0
    6th-----------3---1----0---0---2----0----1---0---0---2---1---0--4
    
    Stan Musial-BA--Hits-2B---3B--HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    Led league---7---6----8----5---0---5----2----6---6---6----0---1--6
    2nd league---2---3----3----1---1---4----0----2---7---3----0---0--4
    3rd----------5---2----1----1---1---4----3----1---0---0----0---2--0
    4th----------2---1----0----2---1---1----2----2---2---3----0---2--3
    5th----------1---0----0----1---1---1----2----2---0---1----0---2--0
    6th----------0---0----2----0---1---0----0----1---1---0----0---0--1
    
    Ed Collins--BA--Hits-2B--3B---HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    Led League---0---0----0---0----0---3----0---0----0---0---4---1--0
    2nd league---3---2----0---1----0---1----0---0----3---0---4---5--1
    3rd----------0---1----0---0----0---2----1---1----7---1---2---2--2
    4th----------5---1----1---0----0---2----0---0----2---0---2---2--2
    5th----------2---3----0---1----0---0----1---3----2---1---1---1--3
    6th----------1---1----0---2----0---1----0---1----1---2---1---1--0
    
    Crawford----BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR---Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---0----0----1---6---2----1----3----2---0---0---0---0--0
    2nd league---4----5----4---3---2----1----4----6---0---4---0---0--2
    3rd----------1----4----0---3---2----0----2----2---0---3---0---0--4
    4th----------2----0----1---0---1----1----2----1---2---1---0---0--3
    5th----------0----2----0---0---3----2----1----2---2---2---0---0--0
    6th----------1----0----2---3---1----0----2----1---1---0---1---0--1
    
    J.Jackson---BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---0----2----1---3---0---0----0---2---1----1----0---0--0
    2nd league---3----2----2---1---0---1----0---2---2----3----0---0--3
    3rd league---2----2----2---2---1---2----1---1---0----1----0---1--2
    4th----------2----2----0---1---0---1----4---1---3----2----0---0--1
    5th----------0----0----0---0---1---0----0---0---1----2----0---0--3
    6th----------0----0----0---0---0---1----0---0---0----0----1---0--0
    
    Z. Wheat----BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB---OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---1----0----2---0---0---0----0---0----0----1----0---0--0
    2nd league---1----3----2---0---0---0----0---0----0----0----0---0--1
    3rd league---2----2----1---0---0---1----2---0----0----1----0---0--1
    4th----------2----0----0---0---1---0----0---0----2----2----0---0--1
    5th----------1----1----0---2---2---0----1---0----1----1----0---0--2
    6th----------0----0----0---1---2---1----2---0----0----0----0---0--1
    
    Edd Roush--BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    led league--2----0----1---1---1---0----0---1---0----1----0---0--1
    2nd league--2----0----1---2---0---0----1---0---0----0----1---0--1
    3rd league--1----3----0---3---0---0----1---0---1----1----0---0--2
    4th---------1----1----0---1---1---0----0---1---1----1----1---0--1
    5th---------1----1----0---0---0---2----0---1---1----0----0---0--0
    6th---------0----1----0---0---0---0----1---2---1----1----1---0--1
    
    J. Foxx-----BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG--SB--BB--OPS+
    led league---2-----0---0---0---4---1----3---3---3---5----0---2--5
    2nd league---2-----1---0---0---3---2----0---1---3---1----0---1--2
    3rd league---1-----2---0---0---2---1----3---0---3---2----0---3--0
    4th----------0-----0---0---0---3---2----2---3---0---1----0---4--3
    5th----------1-----0---0---0---0---1----0---1---2---2----0---0--1
    6th----------0-----0---0---0---0---1----2---1---0---1----0---0--0
    
    Clemente----BA---Hits-2B--3B---HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---4----2----0---1----0---0----0----0---0---0---0---0--0
    2nd league---2----1----1---1----0---0----2----1---1---0---0---0--1
    3rd league---1----1----0---2----0---0----0----1---0---1---0---0--1
    4th----------2----1----0---1----0---2----0----0---1---0---0---0--0
    5th----------1----1----1---4----0---0----0----1---0---1---0---0--0
    6th----------0----1----2---1----0---0----0----0---3---1---0---0--1
    
    Schmidt-----BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---0----0----0---0---8---1----4---3---3---5----0---4--6
    2nd league---0----0----0---0---1---2----1---1---0---2----0---2--1
    3rd league---0----0----0---0---2---6----4---0---0---2----0---3--2
    4th----------1----0----0---0---1---0----0---1---3---3----0---3--1
    5th----------0----0----0---0---0---0----0---4---1---0----0---0--1
    6th----------0----0----0---0---1---1----0---0---0---0----0---1--0
    
    Yaz----------BA---Hits-2B-3B--HR---Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    led league----3----2---3---0---1----3----1---2---5---3----0---2--4
    2nd league----2----0---1---0---0----1----0---0---1---0----0---3--1
    3rd league----0----0---2---1---1----1----1---0---1---0----0---1--0
    4th-----------0----2---0---0---1----1----0---2---0---1----0---1--0
    5th-----------0----1---0---0---0----1----1---0---0---0----0---2--0
    6th-----------0----1---1---0---0----0----0---2---0---0----0---0--1
    
    Anson-------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR---Runs--RBI-TB--OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    led league--2----1----3--0---0-----0----8---1---4----0----0---1---1
    2nd league--5----4----2--1---0-----0----3---2---5----4----0---1---2
    3rd league--2----2----2--0---4-----0----3---2---1----1----0---1---1
    4th---------1----0----2--0---1-----2----0---2---1----3----0---2---3
    5th---------2----3----0--1---1-----2----0---0---2----1----0---0---3
    6th---------0----0----1--0---0-----4----0---3---3----0----0---2---1
    
    B. Williams--BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league----1---1----0--0---0---1----0---3---0---1---0---0--1
    2nd league----0---0----1--1---2---0----3---1---1---0---0---0--0
    3rd league----0---3----3--1---3---0----0---1---0---2---0---0--1
    4th-----------2---0----1--0---1---1----0---1---0---1---0---0--0
    5th-----------0---1----0--1---0---2----0---1---0---0---0---0--0
    6th-----------0---1----0--0---1---0----0---0---0---1---0---1--0
    
    Kiner-------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---0---0----0--0---7---1----1---1---1---3---0---3--0
    2nd league---0---0----0--0---0---0----3---2---0---0---0---3--0
    3rd league---0---0----0--0---0---1----1---0---2---1---0---0--0
    4th league---1---0----0--0---0---1----0---2---0---2---0---1--2
    5th----------1---0----0--0---1---1----1---0---0---0---0---0--0
    6th----------0---1----0--0---0---0----1---0---2---0---0---1--0
    
    Killebrew---BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR---Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
    led league---0---0----0--0---6----0----3---0---1---1---0---4---0
    2nd league---0---0----0--0---2----1----2---2---1---3---0---1---1
    3rd league---0---0----0--0---2----1----2---4---2---4---0---3---2
    4th----------0---0----0--0---0----1----1---0---5---0---0---1---5
    5th----------1---0----0--0---2----0----0---2---2---2---0---1---2
    6th----------0---0----0--0---0----1----1---1---0---0---0---0---0
    
    Rose--------BA-Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
    led league---3---7---5--0---0---4----0---0---1---0---0---0---0
    2nd league---2---5---2--2---0---3----0---1---1---0---0---0---0
    3rd league---0---1---4--0---0---3----0---1---3---0---0---0---0
    4th----------1---1---0--0---0---1----0---1---1---0---0---2---0
    5th----------1---2---2--2---0---1----0---1---1---0---0---2---0
    6th----------0---0---0--1---0---0----0---1---0---0---0---1---1
    
    Gwynn------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR---Runs-RBI-TB---OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league--8---7----0--0---0----1----0---0----1---0---0---0--0
    2nd league--1---0----1--3---0----0----0---0----2---0---1---0--0
    3rd league--2---1----1--0---0----0----0---1----0---0---0---0--1
    4th---------1---0----1--0---0----1----0---0----1---0---0---0--1
    5th---------1---0----0--1---0----0----0---0----2---0---0---0--0
    6th---------0---0----0--0---0----0----1---0----0---0---1---0--1
    
    Kaline-----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs--RBI-TB---OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
    led league--1----1---1--0---0----0----0---1----0---1---0---0---1
    2nd league--3----1---1--0---0----1----2---1----3---1---0---0---2
    3rd league--2----1---1--0---0----0----0---0----2---1---0---0---1
    4th---------1----1---0--1---0----0----0---2----0---1---1---0---1
    5th---------0----0---2--1---0----1----1---0----2---1---0---1---0
    6th---------0----1---1--1---0----1----1---1----0---1---1---1---0
    
    Greenberg---BA---Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---0----0----2--0---4----1---4---2---0---1---0---2--0
    2nd league---0----0----2--0---2----1---1---3---2---4---0---1--4
    3rd league---0----0----1--1---0----1---1---1---2---2---0---0--1
    4th----------0----1----0--0---0----1---1---0---0---0---0---0--2
    5th----------1----1----0--1---0----0---0---1---0---0---0---0--0
    6th----------1----1----0--0---0----0---0---0---0---0---0---3--0
    
    Waner-------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
    led league---3---2----2--2---0---2----1---1---0---0---0---0---0
    2nd league---1---3----1--5---0---2----0---0---2---0---1---2---0
    3rd league---0---1----1--0---0---0----0---1---2---1---0---1---1
    4th----------3---1----2--1---0---1----0---2---1---2---0---1---4
    5th----------1---0----0--0---0---0----0---3---1---2---0---0---0
    6th----------0---2----1--0---0---1----0---1---2---0---0---0---1
    
    R.Jackson----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
    led league----0---0----0--0---4----2---1---0---0---3---0---0---4
    2nd league----0---0----3--0---3----0---0---3---0---2---0---1---1
    3rd league----0---0----0--0---1----1---1---0---0---1---0---0---0
    4th-----------0---0----0--0---1----0---1---1---1---0---0---1---1
    5th-----------0---0----1--0---2----2---0---0---1---2---0---1---1
    6th-----------0---0----0--0---0----0---3---0---2---1---0---0---1
    
    Boggs--------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---5----1----2--0---0---2----0---0---6---0---0---1--1
    2nd league---1----5----3--0---0---0----0---0---1---0---0---0--2
    3rd league---2----0----2--0---0---1----0---0---1---1---0---3--0
    4th----------1----2----1--0---0---0----0---1---1---0---0---0--2
    5th----------2----0----0--0---0---1----0---1---0---0---0---2--0
    6th----------0----0----0--0---0---1----0---0---1---0---0---0--1
    
    Gehringer---BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR---Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---1---2----2--1---0----2----0---0---0---0---1---0--0
    2nd league---1---2----2--1---0----1----0---0---2---0---1---0--0
    3rd league---0---0----1--1---0----3----0---0---0---0---0---1--0
    4th----------1---0----2--0---0----1----0---2---1---0---0---1--0
    5th----------2---3----0--1---0----2----1---0---1---0---0---2--0
    6th----------0---0----0--0---0----0----0---4---1---0---0---1--1
    
    Brouthers----BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league----5---3----3---1---2----2---2---4---5---7---0---0--8
    2nd league----1---2----2---4---1----0---2---2---5---3---0---0--1
    3rd league----2---1----1---2---2----1---1---1---0---0---0---0--2
    4th-----------1---1----2---1---0----0---1---1---1---0---0---2--0
    5th-----------1---2----0---1---2----1---1---0---1---0---0---0--0
    6th-----------0---0----1---0---0----0---1---3---0---0---0---0--0
    
    Delahanty----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league----1---1----5--1---2---0----3---2---2---5---1---0--4
    2nd league----3---1----3--0---0---0----2---2---1---2---0---0--3
    3rd league----2---1----2--2---1---1----1---2---2---1---0---0--1
    4th-----------2---2----1--0---2---1----0---1---0---1---0---2--1
    5th-----------0---1----0--0---1---2----1---0---2---1---0---0--1
    6th-----------2---0----0--2---0---0----0---0---0---0---0---2--1
    
    Mize---------BA-Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
    led league----1---0---1--1---4---1----3---3---0---4---0---0---2
    2nd league----2---0---1--0---2---1----1---4---2---3---0---0---5
    3rd league----0---3---1--2---1---2----3---0---1---2---0---2---2
    4th-----------0---0---0--0---1---0----0---0---1---0---0---0---0
    5th-----------3---1---0--1---1---1----1---0---2---0---0---1---0
    6th-----------0---2---0--0---0---1----0---0---0---0---0---1---0
    
    Brett-------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
    led league---3---3----2--3---0----0---0---1---3---3---0---0---3
    2nd league---2---0----2--1---0----1---1---2---1---0---0---0---0
    3rd league---0---0----2--0---0----1---0---0---1---0---0---1---0
    4th----------0---0----1--1---0----1---0---1---1---1---0---0---0
    5th----------0---1----1--1---0----1---1---1---0---1---0---0---2
    6th----------2---0----0--2---0----0---1---0---1---2---0---0---0
    
    F.Robinson---BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league----1---0----1--0---1----3---1---1---2---4---0---0--4
    2nd league----2---2----0--0---2----2---4---1---6---1---0---1--1
    3rd league----1---1----3--1---3----0---2---1---0---0---1---1--1
    4th-----------1---0----1--0---3----1---0---3---3---5---1---2--1
    5th-----------1---0----0--0---2----2---1---0---0---1---0---1--7
    6th-----------2---1----2--0---1----1---0---1---0---1---1---0--1
    
    Ashburn-----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
    led league---2---3----0--2---0---0----0---0---4---0---1---4---0
    2nd league---2---1----0--0---0---0----0---0---0---0---2---2---0
    3rd league---0---0----0--0---0---0----0---0---1---0---0---1---0
    4th----------0---0----1--1---0---1----0---0---1---0---1---0---0
    5th----------0---1----1--3---0---2----0---0---1---0---2---1---1
    6th----------2---3----0--0---0---2----0---0---0---0---2---1---0
    
    Sisler-------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league----2---2----0--2---0---1----0---2---0---0---4---0--0
    2nd league----1---1----1--2---2---2----1---1---1---2---2---0--1
    3rd league----2---3----1--1---0---0----0---1---1---0---0---0--2
    4th-----------2---3----1--0---0---1----1---1---0---2---0---0--1
    5th-----------0---0----0--0---0---0----0---3---1---2---1---0--1
    6th-----------0---0----0--0---0---0----2---0---1---0---1---0--1
    
    Snider------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
    led league---0----1---0--0---1----3---1---3---1---2---0---1---1
    2nd league---0----1---2--0---1----1---1---1---1---2---0---0---1
    3rd league---2----1---2--2---1----0---1---0---2---0---0---1---2
    4th----------1----0---0--0---1----1---1---0---0---1---0---1---0
    5th----------1----0---0--0---0----0---0---3---0---1---1---1---0
    6th----------0----0---0--0---1----1---1---0---0---1---1---1---1
    
    Simmons-----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---2---2----0--0---0----1---1---2---0---0---0---0--0
    2nd league---2---0----2--0---1----2---2---2---0---3---0---0--0
    3rd league---1---3----0--0---2----0---2---1---0---3---0---0--2
    4th----------3---3----0--0---1----0---1---1---0---0---0---0--1
    5th----------0---0----0--0---3----0---2---1---0---2---0---0--1
    6th----------0---0----0--1---1----0---1---0---1---0---0---0--1
    
    Banks--------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league----0---0----0--0---2---0----2---1---0---1---0---0--0
    2nd league----0---0----0--1---2---2----0---1---0---1---0---0--1
    3rd league----0---0----0--0---2---0----2---3---0---0---0---0--0
    4th-----------0---1----1--0---1---0----1---0---0---1---0---0--1
    5th-----------0---0----1--1---0---0----1---0---0---2---0---0--2
    6th-----------1---0----0--0---1---0----1---1---0---0---0---0--0
    
    Bench------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league--0---0----0--0---2---0----3---1---0---0---0---0--0
    2nd league--0---0----1--0---1---1----1---1---0---0---0---0--1
    3rd league--0---0----2--0---0---0----1---1---0---2---0---1--0
    4th---------0---0----0--0---1---0----0---0---0---2---0---0--0
    5th---------0---0----0--0---0---0----0---0---0---1---0---0--0
    6th---------0---0----1--0---0---0----0---0---0---0---0---0--0
    
    Molitor-----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---0---3----1--1---0---3----0---0---0---0---0---0--0
    2nd league---2---1----0--1---0---1----0---0---1---0---0---0--0
    3rd league---1---2----0--0---0---0----0---0---0---0---1---0--1
    4th----------1---2----0--0---0---1----0---1---0---0---2---0--0
    5th----------2---1----0--0---0---0----0---0---0---1---0---0--0
    6th----------3---0----0--0---0---0----0---0---0---0---2---0--1
    
    Terry--------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league----1---1----0--1---0---1----0---0---0---0---0---0--0
    2nd league----3---3----0--0---0---1----0---2---0---0---0---0--0
    3rd league----0---1----1--1---1---0----1---0---0---1---0---0--0
    4th-----------2---1----0--2---1---0----0---2---1---0---0---0--2
    5th-----------0---0----1--1---0---0----2---0---2---1---0---0--1
    6th-----------1---0----0--0---0---2----1---0---0---0---0---0--0
    
    Keeler-----BA---Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league--2----3----0--0---0----1---0---0---0---0---0---0--0
    2nd league--2----5----0--0---0----5---0---1---1---1---0---0--1
    3rd league--1----1----0--0---0----1---0---1---2---0---0---0--0
    4th---------3----2----0--1---0----1---0---1---0---0---1---0--1
    5th---------1----1----0--0---0----1---0---1---0---0---1---0--0
    6th---------1----0----0--1---0----1---0---2---1---0---0---0--0
    
    Henderson----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG--SB-BB--OPS+
    led league----0---1----0--0---0----5---0---0---1---0---12--4---1
    2nd league----1---0----0--1---0----1---0---0---2---1----0--2---1
    3rd league----0---0----0--0---0----1---0---0---6---0----0--1---0
    4th-----------2---0----0--0---0----3---0---0---1---0----2--5---0
    5th-----------0---0----0--0---0----1---0---0---2---0----1--0---0
    6th-----------0---0----0--0---1----0---0---1---1---0----2--1---0
    Results of our 3 rounds of Greatest Position Players/position:

    leecemark; November 26, 2004, 08:08 AM
    The Top 10 LF results

    1. Ted Williiams 227
    2. Barry Bonds 225
    3. Stan Musial 203
    4. Rickey Henderson 151
    5. Carl Yastrzemski 126
    6. Ed Delahanty 92
    7. Al Simmons 83
    8. Joe Jackson 76
    9. Tim Raines 40
    10. Ralph Kiner 26
    Others in double figures:
    11. Goose Goslin 23
    12. Willie Stargell 18
    13. Billy Williams, Manny Ramirez, Lou Brock and Turkey Stearns all with 13. Most disappointing oversight to me - Minnie Minoso.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    538280; December 9, 2005, 09:02 AM
    Poll Results

    The results are now in, and we had 15 valid ballots. Ted Williams won the poll by a healthy margin. Here is everyone who received 15 or more points (first place votes in parenthesis):

    1. Ted Williams-167 (11)
    2. Barry Bonds-138 (3)
    3. Stan Musial-126 (1)
    4. Rickey Henderson-99
    5. Carl Yastrzemski-63
    6. Al Simmons-45
    7. Ed Delahanty-45
    8. Joe Jackson-44
    9. Tim Raines-29
    10. Willie Stargell-21
    11. Turkey Stearnes-18
    -----------------------------------------------------
    Bill Burgess; May 21, 2007, 08:18 PM

    1) Williams 122
    2) Bonds 118
    3) Musial 106
    4) Henderson 81
    5) Yaz 61
    6) Joe Jackson 55
    7) Tie Raines/Ramirez 28
    9) Delehanty 25
    10) Simmons 21
    11) Wheat 11
    12) Tie Billy Williams, Stearns, Stargell 10
    15) Rose 6
    16) Goslin 5
    17) Medwick 3
    18) Tie Clarke, Kiner 1
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Greatest Hitter series, conducted by Bill Burgess, ending November 4, 2007, 08:05 AM

    1. Babe Ruth---------68 votes - 95.77%
    1. Ted Williams-------68 - 95.77%
    3. Ty Cobb-----------52 - 73.24%
    4. Rogers Hornsby----36 - 50.70%
    5. Lou Gehrig---------32 - 45.07%
    6. Barry Bonds
    7. Mickey Mantle
    8. Stan Musial
    9. Hank Aaron
    10. Willie Mays
    11. Jimmy Foxx
    12. Honus Wagner
    13. Frank Thomas
    14. Tris Speaker
    15. Frank Robinson
    16. Joe DiMaggio
    17. Joe Jackson
    18. Josh Gibson
    19. Nap Lajoie
    20. Mel Ott
    21. Oscar Charleston
    22. Alexander Rodriguez
    23. Dan Brouthers
    24. Mike Schmidt
    311
    I believe that Barry did not know he was using steroids, when his trainer gave him Clear/Cream.
    2.57%
    8
    I believe that Barry was aware he was using steroids, when given Clear/Cream.
    83.28%
    259
    I have now dropped Barry Bonds below my Top 10 Position Players.
    28.62%
    89
    I still have Barry Bonds in my Top 10 Position Players.
    41.80%
    130
    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 01-25-2011, 10:23 PM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by blackout805
    remember in 99 that Bonds hit .262 and missed much of the season due to injuries
    In 1999 he hit .262/.389/.617 with 34 HR, 83 RBI, and 91 runs in only 355 ABs, stole 15 bases and was caught just two times. He BA in 1999 was simply a fluke.
    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 12-03-2005, 01:23 PM.
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by pretorius
      I personally cannot discredit Bonds off of speculation and many are assuming he tooks roids because of his "ego"? Like Griffey never had an ego?

      Griffey was never in Bonds league...even before 2000. The biggest baseball sham I can recall is an awards event that dared to say that Griffey had been a better player then Bonds in the 1990's. The stats and team results laugh at that.
      And that is why The Sporting News named Bonds, not Griffey, as the Player of the Decade for the 1990s.
      Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by west coast orange and black
        Honus Wagner Rules: Three things that lead me to beleive t hat he did take steroids.

        1) The leaked grand jury testimony
        2) Bonds ex-girlfriend statements that Bonds told her he took steriods
        3) His large increase in size

        Now, one can argue that #2 and #3 is just circumstantial evidence and that his ex is lying to get back at him. But if the grand jury testimony then Bonds admitted under oath that he took steriods.


        no one has yet been able to produce the passage(s) of "the leaked grand jury testimony" that contain(s) an admittance of bonds using steroids.

        the authors of the original san francisco chronicle bonds/federal grand jury stories, mark fainaru-wada and lance williams, in fact have not included any such language in any of their dozens of stories.

        this is not to claim that bonds has not used banned substances. it is only to refute the urban myth that bonds, in his federal grand jury testimony in san francisco on 4 december 2003, confessed to using banned substances.

        believe that bonds used. point to any evidence - circumstantial or otherwise - you wish.
        but to say that bonds admitted to using is just plain inaccurate.
        West Coast,

        I did not know this. Wow. What was the date of the original SF Chronicle article. I'd like to read it for myself.
        Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 11-25-2005, 11:38 AM.
        Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Victory Faust
          For those of you who keep saying, "you can't prove Barry Bonds ever did steroids," I ask one simple question:

          Are you aware of an exercise one can do that will increase the girth of their head by three hat sizes in just a few years?

          See, I want to make my head look like a bobble-head doll, just like Barry. So, should I do head curls? I'm really eager to get started on my head-training program, but I can't seem to find the head-curl machine in my gym.

          Can't prove he didn't do steroids? Please. Spare me. How can anyone say that with a straight face?
          Can you give actual evidence that his head sise has increased instead of just rhetoric? I have a rather large head 7-5/8. I've had the same head size since I can remember. In me early 20s I used to collect many hats and I always looked for a 7-5/8. I'm 37 today and I still wear the same hat size. But I've gained quite a bit of weight since my early 20s. My head l"ooks" bigger today because my checks are fuller and I'm heavier overall. But, my hat size is still 7-5/8. To increase one's hat size one would have to increase the thickness of one's skull. A perosn's skull and other bones stop growing by age 25 or so. To claim that Bonds' hat size has increased three hat sizes is just silly. Again, if you have actual evidence please post it.
          Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 11-26-2005, 12:01 AM.
          Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by west coast orange and black
            HWR: West Coast, I did not know this. Wow. What was the date of the original SF Chronicle article. I'd like to read it for myself.
            I did read it but only once...
            Last edited by Bill Burgess; 12-03-2005, 01:30 PM.
            Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Soggwolf
              Although I was not around for it, this situation compels me to draw comparisons between Maris' negative publicity and Bonds'.
              What negative publicity did Maris receive. Two different cases, Bonds "thought" to have used steroids. Maris, looked down on because many thought he was not worthy of breaking Ruth's record. Also that he did it in a 162 game schedule. You can add to that, most Yankee fans wanted Mantle to be the one, they considered him the "real Yank".

              A shame what Roger went through, especially when we consider what took place with McGwire and his chase of Roger's 61 .

              Everyone pulling for Mac, even in opponents parks. Maris shunned by many even at Yankee Stadium. Just think Maris breaks the most recognized record in sports that number "60". What happpens, he has to be pushed onto the field by his teammates to take a bow, in his home park.
              Last edited by Bill Burgess; 12-03-2005, 01:33 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by CTaka
                "Bonds testified that he had received and used clear and cream substances from his personal strength trainer, Greg Anderson, during the 2003 baseball season but was told they were the nutritional supplement flaxseed oil and a rubbing balm for arthritis, according to a transcript of his testimony reviewed by The Chronicle. ...Bonds testified that he had received and used clear and cream substances from his personal strength trainer, Greg Anderson, during the 2003 baseball season but was told they were the nutritional supplement flaxseed oil and a rubbing balm for arthritis, according to a transcript of his testimony reviewed by The Chronicle. "

                All of the above did appear in the San Fransisco Chronical on Friday December 3, 2004. The info is available to any who wish to see it, go to the Chronical website.

                It's true he never admitted to using steroids, but he did state the above, he received and he used the clear and the cream.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I don't think so in view of my understanding that HGH can do precisely that. But if you disagree, that's fine. You still haven't addressed how Bonds was so tight with Conti, and taking Conti-provided items. I personally doubt he was unaware what he was taking since he seems to be like most athletes and very concerned with what he's doing to his body in all respects (rightfully so). But even if Bonds was ignorant, do you really think Conti changed his modus operandi because the player was Barry Bonds? Furthermore, if Bonds truly was in the dark but ingested PEDs, I feel it was only because he wanted to be--which to me is a distinction without a difference.

                  Jim Albright
                  Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                  Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                  A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Unfortunate but true, we will probably never know any more than we do now about Barry, Sheffield and some others. Any one that thinks Selig and MLB will really look into the whole matter, dig deeper, don't hold your breath.

                    Why would Bud want the whole matter to surface, to find out any more than we do now. I picture Bud every night on his knees praying to God that the whole matter just disappears.

                    Bud and the union played around way too long on getting a program in place. Would an earlier program been a cure all, no but it may have discouraged some, lessened the problem. The steroids and amhetamines discussion has been a topic for years with many saying some day the whole issue will explode and it finally did. Just as many suspected some players were juicing up, from way back.

                    In some ways not fair to Barry but since he has put up the big numbers the spotlight is on him.

                    This can be discussed for all time, what will some think of Barry and the answer will never change. Some will always defend him others not. One thing is for sure, proven guilty or not there are some who will always question, doubt some of his numbers. Fair to Barry or not, that the way it's going to be.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ubiquitous
                      It maybe a lie or not but in the grand jury testimony according to the SF reporters Bonds stated that around the end of 1998 he replaced his trainer with Anderson because his old trainer didn't have him on a weight lifting regime. His old trainer had him doing more stretching type workouts like the old-timers did and went to Anderson because he started lifting weights and bulking up.

                      Now that may all be bull, but if it is true that before 1998 he wasn't lifting weights at all or all that much then that right there can be part of if not a big part of the answer as to why he looks so much bigger when he was older compared to when he was young.
                      I'm sure he did use weights and doing so would change his physique. That's a major reason the apparent changes in the shape of his head are a focus. Weight lifting wouldn't do that--but HGH does. Also, steroids plus weight lifting does more than weight lifting alone. The association with Balco is really the nail in the coffin as far as I'm concerned. Without that, it's very hard to make the argument. Add Balco and what has been testified to about it under oath, and it's easy with the other evidence to conclude if Barry laid down with dogs, he got up with fleas.

                      Jim Albright
                      Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                      Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                      A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by west coast orange and black
                        ...only if bonds knew the exact content of the substances that he used, and that has not ever been his claim.
                        in fact, his claim has been the exact opposite.

                        so, for bonds to say "no, i have not taken steroids" would be contradictory to his alleged grand jury testimony.

                        things are not always as tidy as we would like.
                        Especially when someone like Barry Bonds is trying to obfuscate. Don't you think it at least suspicious that someone who not only depends on his body for making the tremendous sums he does but otherwise trains so hard and all that would be truly ignorant of what he's putting in his body via pills, creams and whatnot? He isn't loading up on twinkies, hot dogs and beer a la Babe Ruth, is he? I think he has every reason to ensure that whatever he takes does not work to diminish his skills--yet he blindly takes pills and uses a cream? I just don't find that assertion credible for a modern athlete making millions of dollars a year.

                        Originally posted by csh19792001
                        Jim Albright- thank you for infusing impartial reason and logic into this increasingly decadent conversation
                        You're welcome. I'm trying to do that, though I'm sure not everyone would agree with me.

                        Jim Albright
                        Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                        Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                        A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          spiraling, csh19792001?

                          without contortion, without distortion, without obfuscation:
                          there is a difference between the following two scenarios:

                          1. bonds testifying that he applied two substances, one clear in appearance, the other creamy.

                          2. bonds testifying that he applied the steroid substances known as "the cream" and "the clear."

                          got it?
                          or is it still your assertion that bonds admitted to using the steroid-containing substances in his testimony?

                          if bonds had said to the federal grand jury that he used the steroid substances, the stories would have been much differently written, no?
                          the headlines would have read "bonds admits to using steroids".
                          but that is not what occurred.

                          also, you must have somehow skipped over the passages of the articles where bonds issued flat denials of ever using steroids.

                          and you also must have missed all those posts where i stated that it is not my intent to sway someone from believing that bonds used steroids. nor is it to prove or disprove that bonds used banned substances. i can not do that - i do not have the tools.
                          but i do have the tools to demonstrate inaccuracies when they are plainly evident - as when someone states that bonds testified that he used banned substances.

                          the poll results have absolutely nothing to do with me pointing out the difference between what bonds actually said, according to the news-breaking san francisco chronicle, articles, and how it sometimes gets interpreted.

                          for different reasons, many people think that the following two sentences, without contortion, without distortion, without obfuscation, have the same meaning:
                          "i spoke to four people."
                          "i spoke with four people."

                          i hope that none of you are one of those people who do not understand the difference.
                          "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by west coast orange and black
                            spiraling, csh19792001?

                            without contortion, without distortion, without obfuscation:
                            there is a difference between the following two scenarios:

                            1. bonds testifying that he applied two substances, one clear in appearance, the other creamy.

                            2. bonds testifying that he applied the steroid substances known as "the cream" and "the clear."

                            got it?
                            or is it still your assertion that bonds admitted to using the steroid-containing substances in his testimony?
                            First, I really like your post. But I have one question (which I say in fear of being one of those people you mentioned)...

                            The cream and clear are both steroid substances, and Bonds testified that he used those substances...So, doesn't that mean that he admitted to using substances that are steroids, and thus in effect admitted to using steroids? It doesn't necessarily mean he admitted to conciously using steroids, but he nonetheless admitted to using steroids. There are two indisputable facts here: The substances are steroids and Bonds admitted to using them. Therefore...Bonds admitted to using steroids.
                            Last edited by Bill Burgess; 12-03-2005, 01:45 PM.

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                            • #15
                              If I use a cream does that mean I used "the cream"? No, Bonds testified that his trainer applied a cream and a clear like substance. It turns out that his trainer and balco have a cream and a clear like substance that contains steroids. But the two have not been put together by any court of law or by Bonds himself. Bonds did not say that his trainer game him "the clear" or "the cream". He never once said my trainer gave me something and it turned out to have steroids. He never said it, he has not admitted to taking anything intentionally or unintentionally.

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