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The myth of the missing great black athlete in baseball

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  • The myth of the missing great black athlete in baseball

    How many times do I have to debunk this line of thinking?
    My thoughts are that the game was the best it's ever been in the 1960s and 1970s. I once outlined the reasons for my thinking:

    1.Interest in other sports-In the 1960s, baseball was still the nation's #1 sport, by a wide margin. Today, football has surpassed it for the whole country and basketball has in the black community. That means more young kids start playing football or basketball instead of baseball when they are younger, and great athletes may choose the other sports over baseball. There are also more sports for people to play today, which futher distributes the talent levels in every sport. But, it has especially effected baseball through history because it was the only true mainstream sport in this country until the 1960s. I think the larger interest in other sports today has dilluted the talent in the majors. I suppose that was a small factor in the 1960s, but not nearly as much a factor as it is today.
    Baseball is not like football or basketball. Baseball requires far more learned "muscle-memory" skills than football or basketball. There is a difference between talent and skill. Talent is something that is innate. One is born with talent because it is based on genetics. Speed, strength, hand-eye coordination, intellegence, and quickness vary between people. One can train to increase these attributes but some people are just blessed with more talent than others. I can spend the next five years training like a world class sprinter but I will never be as fast as a world class because I simply do not have the necessary talent to run that fast. My upper limit of my footspeed is far lower than a world class sprinter.

    Skill, on the other hand, is a learned trait. Batting, fielding, pitching, and catching are learned skills. One must spend thousands of hours practicing these skills to be able to perform at the major league. How many ABs does a player have before he reaches the majors? Most major leaguers started playing baseball in little league so if the reach the majors at say age 22-24, they literally have thousands of ABs, thousands of ground balls caught, thousands of fly balls caught, thousands of pitches thrown.

    In basketball and especially in football, great size, strength, and great speed give a player a huge advantage. There is a direct link between speed and strength, size and height to these games. The more a player has these talents the more dominant a player will likely be. Football especially has a "survival of the fittest" element to it. There are many examples of great athletes with no football experience or hardly any football experience transitioning from other other sports. I mentioned these three in another thread:

    1) Chrisitan Okoye- Running back, KC Chiefs
    The Nigerian Nightmare didn't play any football until he was 23 years old in 1984. He was a football and track star in college. He was an amazing athlete, 6'-1", 260 pounds. He won seven national titles in the discuss, shotput and hammer throw. He had a brilliant, but short NFL career (knee injuries). He was a two-time Pro-Bowler and led the NFL in rushing one year. Okoye's athletic ability allowed him to play in the NFL with hardly any football experience all. He went to a small school, Azuza Pacific, hardly an NCAA football powerhouse.

    2) Bob Hayes- Wide Receiver, Dallas Cowboys, gold medalist, 100-m World Record Holder
    Hayes won the Gold medal in the 100 m in 1964 and is considered the greatest sprinter of all time. He was once clocked at 27.89 mph in a race. The Cowboys drafted him in the 7th round. The Cowboys thought his speed would be a great weapon. And it was. He changed how defenses play the game, creating all sorts of zone defenses to cover Hayes. He simply could not be covered man-to-man.

    3) Renaldo Nehemiah, 110-m High Hurdles, World Record holder
    Nehemaih was the greatest hurdler in history. From 1977-81 he utterly dominated his event. He then joined the 49ers and tried to make it as a wide receiver. He didn't play any college football. He wasn't not a great football player, he didn't have the hands to be a great receiver.

    So what is the common theme here. Football coaches drool over athletic talent and these men all had it. This wouldn't happen in baseball. You can't take a 23 year old who has never played baseball and try to make him into a major leaguer.

    So great athletic talent in baseball is vastly overrated. Who woud you rather have John Kruk or Bob Jackson, Tony Gwynn or Dion Sanders?

    2.More Teams-This is pretty self explanatory. Obviously, the less teams there are, this more concetrated talent there is. Concentrated talent=higher league quality. So, this is a factor as well.
    This doesn't take into account the large population increase from the 1960s-70s and the large influx of Latin players and, more recently, Asian players. Also what does "higher quality" really mean. The way I understand it is that the main argument is that if the best players can't separate themselves from the "average player" as much it is because the league has a higher quality. But for me "high quality" means something different. Just because there were fewer teams in the past doesn't mean that those teams could beat teams of today. For some one to assert that the league quality was higher in the past they would have to show me evidence that the teams of the past would be able to defeat present teams on a consistent basis. And I'm not just taking about the good teams. Can the 100 win teams of the past beat todays 100 win teams? Can .500 teams of the past beat today's .500 teams? Can 100 loss teams of the past beat today's 100 loss teams?

    3.Declining Interest with African Americans-No knock on other races, but African Americans have had an extraordinary success rate in sports. They have probably been more successful in athletic competition than any other race, and for whatever reason they also seem to not be playing baseball nearly as much as they used to. The 1960s and 1970s (I think the best times for baseball) was the heyday of African American participation in baseball.

    If you don't believe that African Americans tend to be a bit better at sports, then consider this:

    1.How many great white sprinters are there today?
    2.How many white running backs can you name in the NFL today?
    3.How many American white superstars are there in the NBA today?
    4.Think of as many black players as you can in the MLB today. Aren't almost all of them starters? Really, how many black bench players are there?

    I'm not being a racist, I'm just stating facts.

    That's my opinion. You don't have to agree with it. I've just studied the issue on my own and this is the conclusion I've came to. I know others have different thoughts.
    The fact that black athletes dominate other sports is irrelavent. The other sports require different talents and different skill sets. Those other talents and skill do not necessarily transfer over to baseball. And let me mask you this. What current basektball and football players could have been major leaguers today? I don't consider a 6'10" power foward to be a good baseball prospect. There have been very few tall baseball players. A 6'4" baseball player is extremely tall but would be a small guard in the NBA. It's the same with football. Most of the larger football stars would not baseball stars at all. The 255 pound fullbacks and the 325 pound lineman would not be baseball prospects. I'll ask this also. Can you name me some of the great black baseball players for the 1960s-70s that concieveably could have been taken away by other sports? The only two that I can think of are Dave Winfiled and Rickey Henderson. Even Willie Mays for all his athletic talent was only 5'11" and 180 pounds in his prime. That's too short for basketball and a little light for football.

    What happened when Bo Jackson tried baseball? He wasn't really that good. Yes, his fame greatly outpaced his actual baseball skills. He struck out a ton and didn't draw walks and was a terrible defensive player. Yes, he would do spectacular things once in a while but baseball is not a spectacle. He never was going to be a HoF baseball player. He just didn't have the necessay baseball talent.

    Many decry the lack of black baseball players today. The percentage of blacks in baseball peaked in 1977 with 27%. Today it is 10%. But what players have been lost. Mostly the backups and pinch hitters have been lost. These black players (backups and pinch hitters) have ben replaced by white, Asian, and Latin backup backups and pinch hitters. So how does this lower the quality of the game of baseball if the major change has been mong the backup players?

    I believe that there may be a new age for the African American baseball player in the near future. Right now in the minors and majors there are several outstanding young African American players:

    B.J Upton
    Justin Upton
    Rickie Weeks
    Prince Fielder
    Delmon Young
    Dontrelle Willis

    ...and several others. The Upton brothers, Weeks, Young, and Willis are all outstanding athletes. Somehow they managed to stay in baseball. The problem in the past 15 years is that the the black major leaguers did not promote the game. Bonds, Thomas, Sheffield, and Griffey, were some of the best players of the 1990s but they did nothing to promote the game. But hopefully, that will change.
    Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 12-07-2005, 10:40 AM. Reason: typo
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

  • #2
    Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules
    The fact that black athletes dominate other sports is irrelavent.
    Anyone watch ice skating, diving, swimming, gymnastics, skiing, archery lately? Size is a detriment in some sports. Oh, and MLB, NFL, and NBA do not define athletics.

    Comment


    • #3
      As the need for top-notch baseball talent increases, Major League Baseball has continually tapped new resources. There were 227 foreign-born players on major league rosters to start the 2004 season, comprising 27.3% of the slots. This figure is likely to increase since 47.6% of minor leaguers, to start 2004, were born outside the United States

      Comment


      • #4
        Honus, a very good and intelligent post. I think this whole issue of the decrease of blacks in MLB is mostly hogwash. To begin with, look at the color of the skin of the huge influx of players from the Caribbean, their ancestors were also from Africa. There are also more blacks playing professional sports than ever, it's just that many more of them are in the NFL and NBA than there were 40 years ago. Why did so many of them gravitate to football and basketball? Several reasons, the other sports do come across much better on tv. Also, before the 70's, the entire Southeast and Southwest Confrences were strictly white-meat leagues. So a talented black athlete in the south or Texas could hope that he may get noticed by a school from outside of that region or play at an all-black university in the school, where he would get little national attention. [Although some of those schools, like Grambling or Jackson State, turned out a lot of NFL players] But he didn't have any guys at Bama, Auburn, Ole Miss, LSU, UT he could identify with, like he could with MLB then. But in the 70's, all of a sudden blacks were starring in football & basketball at these colleges after they opened the door.

        I might also add that Title 9, which requires colleges to offer an equal number of scholarships for men and womens sports, also played a role. Colleges weren't going to eliminate full-rides for football and basketball, the two big revenue sports, but college baseball in a lot of places would take a hit. A talented black jock knew that football or basketball was his best chance of getting the full ride scholarship. Also, to that end, a very talented athlete is now pushed into concentrating on just one sport at an early age, rather than playing several sports. A very talented football or basketball player will play in summer leagues or in the case of football, will attend camps sponsored by big time coaches. No time for baseball in the summer.
        It Might Be? It Could Be?? It Is!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by 64Cards
          Honus, a very good and intelligent post. I think this whole issue of the decrease of blacks in MLB is mostly hogwash. To begin with, look at the color of the skin of the huge influx of players from the Caribbean, their ancestors were also from Africa. There are also more blacks playing professional sports than ever, it's just that many more of them are in the NFL and NBA than there were 40 years ago. Why did so many of them gravitate to football and basketball? Several reasons, the other sports do come across much better on tv. Also, before the 70's, the entire Southeast and Southwest Confrences were strictly white-meat leagues. So a talented black athlete in the south or Texas could hope that he may get noticed by a school from outside of that region or play at an all-black university in the school, where he would get little national attention. [Although some of those schools, like Grambling or Jackson State, turned out a lot of NFL players] But he didn't have any guys at Bama, Auburn, Ole Miss, LSU, UT he could identify with, like he could with MLB then. But in the 70's, all of a sudden blacks were starring in football & basketball at these colleges after they opened the door.

          I might also add that Title 9, which requires colleges to offer an equal number of scholarships for men and womens sports, also played a role. Colleges weren't going to eliminate full-rides for football and basketball, the two big revenue sports, but college baseball in a lot of places would take a hit. A talented black jock knew that football or basketball was his best chance of getting the full ride scholarship. Also, to that end, a very talented athlete is now pushed into concentrating on just one sport at an early age, rather than playing several sports. A very talented football or basketball player will play in summer leagues or in the case of football, will attend camps sponsored by big time coaches. No time for baseball in the summer.
          It is true that there are hardly any black baseball players in college baseball. A lot of school only give partial schoarships or no scholarships at all in baseball. Hopefully I can stir lively discussion on the quality of baseball issue. I find this topic quite fascinating.
          Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

          Comment


          • #6
            The big picture here is not whether of not athletic skill is as large a factor in baseball as it is in other sports-the picture is that baseball is missing out on a very large pool of athletes that it was getting before. And, yes, it is true that blacks percentage wise have more professional athletes in all the major sports (NBA, NFL, MLB). It is less so in baseball, but they still do much better than other races. It is my opinion that that has made the modern game worse than the game in the 1970s, because they are missing out of the black players.

            The fact that black athletes dominate other sports is irrelavent. The other sports require different talents and different skill sets. Those other talents and skill do not necessarily transfer over to baseball. And let me mask you this. What current basektball and football players could have been major leaguers today? I don't consider a 6'10" power foward to be a good baseball prospect. There have been very few tall baseball players. A 6'4" baseball player is extremely tall but would be a small guard in the NBA. It's the same with football. Most of the larger football stars would not baseball stars at all. The 255 pound fullbacks and the 325 pound lineman would not be baseball prospects. I'll ask this also. Can you name me some of the great black baseball players for the 1960s-70s that concieveably could have been taken away by other sports? The only two that I can think of are Dave Winfiled and Rickey Henderson. Even Willie Mays for all his athletic talent was only 5'11" and 180 pounds in his prime. That's too short for basketball and a little light for football.
            The lack of the black athlete is very, very relavent. It is the loss of over half of one of MLB's largest talent pools. And, it's not just the black bench players and pinch hitters we're losing, but also the stars. There aren't as many black stars today as they used to be. Make an all star team of black players from the 1960s and 1970s and I guarantee it would be much, much better than an all star team of blacks today.

            Comment


            • #7
              a good athlete is a good athlete

              why you guys seem to think blacks are better than whites is beyond me, i'm sure Roger Clemens is just as good as whoever the best african american pitcher in baseball is (I guess Dontrelle)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by blackout805
                a good athlete is a good athlete

                why you guys seem to think blacks are better than whites is beyond me, i'm sure Roger Clemens is just as good as whoever the best african american pitcher in baseball is (I guess Dontrelle)
                But that's the whole point-blacks just don't seem to be as interested in baseball as they were in the past. If all the best black pitchers were in the league there may be a lot more good ones and maybe a few who are just as good as Roger is now.

                Comment


                • #9
                  What is a black athlete, what is a white athlete, and why is a black athletes genetics so much better then mine? Its all hogwash, there is no such thing as a black athlete or a white athlete. I'm white yet my entire family background is going to be completely different then yours. Races are not pure and they probably never were. Yet because we have the same skin color we are supposed to have the same genetic predisposition? Why? Life isn't that general. There are blacks straight from sub sahara africa that compete and have never mixed with any blacks or outside races from africa. There are North Africans who all they have done is mix with other races for millenias. There are west africans who have mixed with europeans, americans, north and south. Yet because they might all share the same pigment color they are supposed to have the same genetic advantage.

                  There is no such thing as the average white man or average black man. We are way too diverse to be speaking in these kinds of generalities, especially when it comes to genetics and breeding.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    It always cracks me up when someone says, "blacks dominate sports" -- especially when it's coupled with the ridiculous notion that blacks are somehow more gifted physically than other races.

                    First of all, which blacks are we talking about? How many pygmies dominate sports? Are pygmies not also black?

                    And how many black folks do you see dominating ping pong? Does the fact that the Chinese have traditionally dominated ping pong mean they have better reflexes that other races?

                    And what about the explosion of Latin players in baseball over the last decade or two? Have Latinos suddenly developed some physical trait that has propelled them into the baseball stratosphere?

                    Have Eastern Europeans suddenly developed some physical trait that is allowing them to infiltrate the NBA?

                    It is obvious to anyone who cares to look that sociology is the determining factor in why a particular race is drawn to a particular sport.
                    "Hey Mr. McGraw! Can I pitch to-day?"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 538280
                      The big picture here is not whether of not athletic skill is as large a factor in baseball as it is in other sports-the picture is that baseball is missing out on a very large pool of athletes that it was getting before.
                      You are simply wrong. Chris. I am asserting that the "missing large pool of black athletes" has no higher basebal potential as a group than any other groups and they have been replaced by equally talented Latin star players.
                      And, yes, it is true that blacks percentage wise have more professional athletes in all the major sports (NBA, NFL, MLB). It is less so in baseball, but they still do much better than other races. It is my opinion that that has made the modern game worse than the game in the 1970s, because they are missing out of the black players.
                      Wll opinions are fine but where is your evidence? Mearly stating assertions is NOT evidence.
                      The lack of the black athlete is very, very relavent. It is the loss of over half of one of MLB's largest talent pools. And, it's not just the black bench players and pinch hitters we're losing, but also the stars. There aren't as many black stars today as they used to be.
                      I'll ask you again, please name me black players from the 1960s-70s that had real potential to be professional footbal and basketball players? The only ones that come to mind are Dick Allen, Dave Winfield, and Rickey Henderson. Can you also name modern football and basketball players today that could have been major leaguers?

                      Make an all star team of black players from the 1960s and 1970s and I guarantee it would be much, much better than an all star team of blacks today.
                      Oh, let's see, here's are a few off of the top of my head:
                      Barry Bonds
                      Gary Sheffield
                      Frank Thomas
                      Ken Griffey Jr.
                      Rickey Henderson (recently retired)
                      Dontrelle Willis
                      C.C Sabathia
                      Cliff Floyd
                      Mo Vaghn (before he got fat)
                      Cecil Fielder (before he got fat)
                      Tim Raines
                      Fred McGriff
                      Joe Carter
                      Eric Davis
                      Daryl Strawberry
                      Tony Gywnn


                      All these players have played since the 1980s and some are still active. You are also missing one thing-- The great Latin ballplayers:

                      Albert Pujols
                      Vlad Guererro
                      Alex Rodriguez
                      Miguel Tejeda
                      Alfonso Soriano
                      Manny Ramirez
                      Alex Cabrera
                      Johan Santana
                      Mariano Rivera
                      Pedro Martinez
                      Ivan Rodriguez
                      Bobby Abreu
                      Carlos Beltran
                      David Ortiz
                      Fancisco Rodriguez
                      Carlos Delgado

                      Who was the Pujols of the 1960s-70? How was the A-Rod of the 1960s-70s? Who was the Manny Ramirez, the I-Rod, the Pedro Martinez of the 1960s-70s? The 1960s-70s had no equivalent Pujols, Manny, A-Rod, Soriano, Ortiz, etc. The modern Latin power hitter has really come to the forfront in recent years. This is the key point I want to make. What ever black star player that may have been lost to other sports has been equally replaced by the new 21 century latin star players. Hence the loss of the so-called black star player has no effect of the quality of baseball.

                      And you still failed to address my issue with the phrase "higher quality". If the 1960s-70s baseball was of a "higher quality" than today can you show convincing evidence that the 1960s-70s teams would be able to defeat modern teams on a consistent basis.
                      Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 01-05-2006, 05:50 PM.
                      Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by 538280
                        But that's the whole point-blacks just don't seem to be as interested in baseball as they were in the past. If all the best black pitchers were in the league there may be a lot more good ones and maybe a few who are just as good as Roger is now.
                        How do you know this? Have you conducted a poll of African Americans to determine what sports they'd rather play?
                        Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules
                          You are simply wrong. Chris. I am asserting that the "missing large pool of black athletes" has no higher basebal potential as a group than any other groups and the yahave been replaced by equally talented Latin star players.
                          But it does have a higher potential. It is a fact that blacks do proportionally better at baseball than other races. Therefore, you can logically assume that the blacks the game is missing would be better than the replacements the game has, which is whites and hispanics.

                          Wll opinions are fine but where is your evidence? Mearly stating assertions is NOT evidence.
                          I don't have any evidence. But is there any evidence when we are talking quality of play? Not really. Quality of play in baseball is really something that there are only opinions on. We will never know the real answer, but we can use factors to come up with logical possibilities.


                          Oh, let's see, here's are a few off of the top of my head:
                          Barry Bonds
                          Gary Sheffield
                          Frank Thomas
                          Ken Griffey Jr.
                          Rickey Henderson (recently retired)
                          Dontrelle Willis
                          C.C Sabathia
                          Cliff Floyd
                          Mo Vaghn (before he got fat)
                          Cecil Fielder (before he got fat)
                          Tim Raines
                          Fred McGriff
                          Joe Carter
                          Eric Davis
                          Daryl Strawberry
                          Tony Gywnn
                          That's all good, but still, the blacks of the 1960s and 1970s were still better. I'm pressed for time right now, so I can't make up a list, but I'm very confident that the 1960s/70s blacks would beat those guys in a game.

                          All these players have played since the 1980s and some are still active. You are also missing one thing-- The great Latin ballplayers:

                          Albert Pujols
                          Vlad Guererro
                          Alex Rodriguez
                          Miguel Tejeda
                          Alfonso Soriano
                          Manny Ramirez
                          Alex Cabrera
                          Johan Santana
                          Mariano Rivera
                          Pedro Martinez
                          Ivan Rodriguez
                          Bobby Abreu
                          Carlos Beltran
                          David Ortiz
                          Fancisco Rodriguez
                          Carlos Delgado

                          Who was the Pujols of the 1960s-70? How was the A-Rod of the 1960s-70s? Who was the Manny Ramirez, the I-Rod, the Pedro Martinez of the 1960s-70s? The 1960s-70s had no equivalent Pujols, Manny, A-Rod, Soriano, Ortiz, etc. The modern Latin power hitter has really come to the forfront in recent years. This is the key point I want to make. What ever black star player that may have been lost to other sports has been equally replaced by the new 21 century latin star players. Hence the loss of the so-called black star player has no effect of the quality of baseball.
                          I've talked about this on another thread-the influx of Latin players in baseball has lots to do with the lack of an international draft and very little to do with increased interest from Hispanics.

                          Also, part of the reason there are more Latin players is because baseball in the US has taken a bit of a slide. They make up for each other, but based on history I think the lack of interest from Americans is a bigger factor.

                          And you still failed to address my issue with the phrase "higher quality". If the 1960s-70s baseball was of a "higher quality" than today can you show convincing evidence that the 1960s-70s teams would be able to defeat modern teams on a consistent basis.
                          I can't show you evidence. But, you can't show me evidence that a modern team would defeat a 1970s team on a consistent basis. This is all theoretical, we'll never be able to come up with any definitive proof.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 538280
                            But it does have a higher potential. It is a fact that blacks do proportionally better at baseball than other races. Therefore, you can logically assume that the blacks the game is missing would be better than the replacements the game has, which is whites and hispanics.
                            Again you are mearly asserting a statement without any evidence. Black players at their peak contsituted about 27% of MLB. That's about how many latin players are in the majors today. In the minors it's well over 40% Latin. Black players never made up over 40% of the minors at any time in history.
                            I don't have any evidence. But is there any evidence when we are talking quality of play? Not really. Quality of play in baseball is really something that there are only opinions on. We will never know the real answer, but we can use factors to come up with logical possibilities.
                            So you admit you have NO evidence for your position. So why do you state i tso domatically as if it were some logical tautology. SABR Matt has a thread in the Sabermetrics forum dealing with the quality of play through the years. He at least trying to use a scientific methold to study the issue of quality of play.
                            That's all good, but still, the blacks of the 1960s and 1970s were still better. I'm pressed for time right now, so I can't make up a list, but I'm very confident that the 1960s/70s blacks would beat those guys in a game.
                            Again, another assertion without evidence. I'll wait for your list, though. And you can't use Aaron, Mays, or Robinson since these three players came up in the 1950s.
                            I've talked about this on another thread-the influx of Latin players in baseball has lots to do with the lack of an international draft and very little to do with increased interest from Hispanics.
                            Yes, I read that post but I do not agree. The lack of international draft allows for more opportunity for the Latin players and American prospects. MLB has established baseball academies in several countries. This allows them to scout the best Latin talent. The best of the best are signed at a very young age. They don't have to compete with American prospects for draft spots. Also this gives more opportunity for American prospects because since the latin players are not in the draft the American prospects have a better chance of being drafted.
                            Also, part of the reason there are more Latin players is because baseball in the US has taken a bit of a slide. They make up for each other, but based on history I think the lack of interest from Americans is a bigger factor.
                            If there is downward pattern of lack on interest in America that would mean the groups that lack interest in baseball simply won't have any "lost" potential ballplayers. Look at it this way. How many potental ballplyers are in Russia? Very very few. Until recently they had no baseball at. So since there was no baseball culture by definition there was no viable baseball talent.
                            I can't show you evidence. But, you can't show me evidence that a modern team would defeat a 1970s team on a consistent basis. This is all theoretical, we'll never be able to come up with any definitive proof.
                            I don't have to show you evidence. You are the one making the assertion that baseball of the 1960s-70s was stronger than today's game. The "burden of proof" is on you, not me, to present evidence for that claim.
                            Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 12-07-2005, 05:05 PM.
                            Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              It was thought that the Irish were superior in baseball compared with other nationalities around a hundred years ago. Look at their numbers in the ML's back then and you would assume they had an edge in genetic ability.

                              I have noticed that more professional soccer teams around the globe have many players from Africa playing for them.
                              "He's tougher than a railroad sandwich."
                              "You'se Got The Eye Of An Eagle."

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