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  • Magical Players:

    Originally posted by leecemark
    --Perfect is not a word I'd use to describe Joe Morgan either. Especially if you take his broadcasting career into account . He was an enormously valuable player at his peak though. The closest thing to perfect players IMO are Wagner and Mays. Both were the best or very close to it in EVERY phase of the game. That sort of well rounded excellence doesn't necessarily mean they were better than somebody who had a weakness, but also a more towering strength though. Of course, they are among the very best ever and Mays is, in fact, my number one guy. For career anyway - I might take Morgan and others (Mantle for one) just for peak.
    In another thread, Chris (538280) opined that he sincerely felt that Joe Morgan, at his peak, 1973-1976, came closest to "The Perfect Ballplayer".

    Now while we all realize, in our more sober moments, that such a title REALLY doesn't exist, and cannot exist, by definition, I'd like to know who the Fever membership felt came the closest to the mythical expression, "The Perfect Ballplayer".

    So, I will conduct another of my countless, delightful polls, to see who the house feels falls into that category of who came closest. Some examples might well be:

    1. Babe Ruth - only fielded average, and ran very poorly. Hit great, threw great.

    2. Ty Cobb - only fielded very, very well. Fine OF arm, but not great arm. Had difficulties getting along with team mates. Coached hitting great, managed very well considering personnel. Hit/ran great.

    3. Hans Wagner - Fielded great, hit great, ran great. Got along with everybody. His skills may not have been the absolute best ever, but were so uniformly excellent, he had no chinks in his armour, from which we can take any points away. His competition was somewhat soft, 1901-07, but that wasn't under his control.

    4. Tris Speaker - Fielded great, hit great, ran very well. Got along well. Managed credibly due to being able to coach others.

    5. Willie Mays - Modern day Speaker. No chinks in his chain. No area we can mark him down appreciably.

    6. Mickey Mantle - Initially, no weak spots. Hit great, fielded well, ran very well. His downfall was his injury-prone physique, which robbed him of his greatness/longevity prematurely.

    I am asking you to rank all those players who you feel were "magical", and came closest to "perfect players". However many you name is up to you.

    I am deliberately not defining this for anyone. Use your own criteria.
    110
    Babe Ruth
    40.91%
    45
    Ty Cobb
    59.09%
    65
    Honus Wagner
    70.00%
    77
    Willie Mays
    80.00%
    88
    Tris Speaker
    46.36%
    51
    Oscar Charleston
    28.18%
    31
    John "Pop" Lloyd
    17.27%
    19
    Mickey Mantle
    47.27%
    52
    Joe Morgan
    21.82%
    24
    Rogers Hornsby
    18.18%
    20
    Lou Gehrig
    30.00%
    33
    Barry Bonds
    40.00%
    44
    Alexander Rodriquez
    41.82%
    46
    Johnny Bench
    19.09%
    21
    Buck Ewing
    10.00%
    11
    Eddie Collins
    20.00%
    22
    Ted Williams
    26.36%
    29
    Stan Musial
    39.09%
    43
    Joe DiMaggio
    50.91%
    56
    Joe Jackson
    25.45%
    28
    George Sisler
    12.73%
    14
    Ernie Banks
    6.36%
    7
    Jackie Robinson
    33.64%
    37
    Mike Schmidt
    20.91%
    23
    Hank Aaron
    46.36%
    51
    Ricky Henderson
    20.91%
    23
    Nap Lajoie
    17.27%
    19
    George Brett
    20.91%
    23
    Ken Griffey, Jr.
    27.27%
    30
    other: name your own guy, with explanation.
    6.36%
    7
    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 04-16-2007, 01:52 PM.

  • #2
    How about an all-time closest-to-5-tool-player that you can get at each position?

    P-Guy Hecker?
    C-Ewing
    1B-Anson
    2B-ECollins
    3B-Brett (or Schmidt if you count OBP instead of BA)
    SS-Wagner
    LF-Barry Bonds/JJackson/EDelahanty
    CF-Cobb
    RF-Aaron/FrRobinson/Crawford
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

    Comment


    • #3
      No Josh Gibson?????

      Comment


      • #4
        First off Babe Ruth in the first part of his career was better than average fielder plus he was fast.His poor work ethic eroded his fielding and running but remained a fantastic hitter and pitcher.

        Best all around players of all time IMHO:

        1.Babe Ruth - greatest hitter of all-time, average fielder, above average throwing arm, one of the 10 all-time greatest left handed pitchers

        Willie Mays
        Honus Wagner
        Ty Cobb
        Tris Speaker
        Eddie Collins
        Mickey Mantle
        Nap Lajoie
        Hank Aaron
        Frank Robinson
        Jackie Robinson
        Al Kaline
        Richie Ashburn
        Tony Gwynn

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by blackout805
          No Josh Gibson?????
          I have never heard he was a great stolen base threat.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by [email protected]
            In another thread, Chris (538280) opined that he sincerely felt that Joe Morgan, at his peak, 1973-1976, came closest to "The Perfect Ballplayer".

            Now while we all realize, in our more sober moments, that such a title REALLY doesn't exist, and cannot exist, by definition, I'd like to know who the Fever membership felt came the closest to the mythical expression, The Perfect Ballplayer".

            So, I will conduct another of my countless, delightful polls, to see who the house feels falls into that category of who came closest. Some examples might well be:

            1. Babe Ruth - only fielded average, and ran very poorly. Hit great, threw great.
            Not "close to the best in EVERY phase of the game"
            Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
            Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by julusnc
              I have never heard he was a great stolen base threat.
              read his biography sometime, he was much better of a baserunner than one would think

              hit alot of triples too

              Comment


              • #8
                "1. Babe Ruth - only fielded average, and ran very poorly. Hit great, threw great."

                In his earlier days, The Babe was a very good fielder and baserunner. While not speedy, he ran the bases smartly.

                As for fielding:

                Ruth (OF) .968
                Speaker (OF) .970

                Bob

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by bluezebra
                  As for fielding:

                  Ruth (OF) .968
                  Speaker (OF) .970

                  Bob
                  There's a LITTLE more to it than that
                  Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                  Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Here were votes in the order they appeared on the poll:

                    Honus Wagner
                    Willie Mays
                    Tris Speaker
                    Joe Morgan
                    Barry Bonds
                    Alex Rodriguez
                    Stan Musial
                    Joe DiMaggio
                    Jackie Robinson
                    Ken Griffey, Jr.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Some things need to be defined here. Are we talking for the majority of their careers, or over the course of their entire careers? Taking into account length, then things are bound to come down. Here's my 2 cents on Babe.

                      Majority of career: (20 is best, 10 is average)


                      -------AVG--------PWR-------SPEED------FIELDING--------ARM

                      -------19---------20-----------16----------15--------------19


                      Over the course of his entire career:

                      -------AVG--------PWR-------SPEED------FIELDING--------ARM

                      -------19----------20---------11-----------12------------17


                      It's a joke for Bonds to be so high on that list. His arm was average at best (only because of accuracy thanks to turf and short field), and his average was exactly that, average. Power was nothing to write home about until his late years, maybe he was at a 14 before then. Fielding was probably a 18 and speed maybe 18 as well when he was younger.
                      Last edited by Sultan_1895-1948; 12-19-2005, 06:44 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by blackout805
                        read his biography sometime, he was much better of a baserunner than one would think

                        hit alot of triples too
                        I have read it and triples do not make a player a speedster.

                        I listed Babe Ruth as a five tool player because he

                        1.All-time great hitter
                        2.All-time outfield arm
                        3.All-time strike zone control
                        4.All-time left handed pitcher
                        5.As complete a offense weapon as the game has ever known

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by bluezebra
                          "1. Babe Ruth - only fielded average, and ran very poorly. Hit great, threw great."

                          In his earlier days, The Babe was a very good fielder and baserunner. While not speedy, he ran the bases smartly.

                          As for fielding:

                          Ruth (OF) .968
                          Speaker (OF) .970

                          Bob
                          You can say this about thousands of major leaguers throughout baseball history. How does this point help Ruth out? :noidea
                          Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by julusnc
                            I have read it and triples do not make a player a speedster.

                            I listed Babe Ruth as a five tool player because he

                            1.All-time great hitter (check)
                            2.All-time outfield arm (Umm...not sure about this)
                            3.All-time strike zone control (as a pitcher or hitter? He struck out a lot as a hitter)
                            4.All-time left handed pitcher (Sorry, not even close. He was very good for a few years)
                            5.As complete a offense weapon as the game has ever known(I'll buy that but if by offensce you mean mainly slugging)
                            See above for response...
                            Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 12-19-2005, 08:06 PM.
                            Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              He may not have the most "complete" offensive player off all time. But contesting the statement is just a debate over semantics.

                              Ruth did all the most important things on offense and did them basically better than anybody else. I mean why wouldn't he be a "complete" offensive player, because he didn't steal bases. Stealing bases is pretty much immaterial when you are a career .342/.474./690 hitter.
                              THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

                              In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

                              Comment

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