Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Williams 1941 vs. Will Clark 1989

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Williams 1941 vs. Will Clark 1989

    Who was better?
    67
    Williams was easily better.
    88.06%
    59
    Williams was better, but just barely.
    5.97%
    4
    Clark was easily better.
    5.97%
    4
    Clark was better but just barely.
    0%
    0

  • #2
    I am a huge Will Clark for Hall of Fame supporter, but come on.

    Comment


    • #3
      Pick any random season by Ted Williams and it was better than Will Clark's 1989.
      My top 10 players:

      1. Babe Ruth
      2. Barry Bonds
      3. Ty Cobb
      4. Ted Williams
      5. Willie Mays
      6. Alex Rodriguez
      7. Hank Aaron
      8. Honus Wagner
      9. Lou Gehrig
      10. Mickey Mantle

      Comment


      • #4
        will clark easily, he had a .333 batting average, thats amazing!!

        Comment


        • #5
          Win Shares actually shows Clark in 1989 being slightly ahead, 41.12 to 39.62. Win Shares is, I believe, by far the best total player metric there is and a great tool for comparing players, but I have to reject its output this time. Clark did have a monster season that went largely unaprreciated (partly because his teammate, Kevin Mitchell, was almost as good).

          The only time I sometimes have a problem with WS is with teams that have very high ratios of runs to wins. Since WS goes by actual wins rather than the pythagorean, it gives those players a boost. James argues in Win Shares that teams that overperform their pyth. are actually better than their statistics and thus deserve a boost. I suppose that may be true sometimes but most of the time it is probably due to luck. Win SHares may have been better off if James made them correlate with pyth. rather than acutal wins.

          Clark's huge WS total in 1989 is largely explained by this. It wasn't as good as Williams' 1941. But, that doesn't mean it wasn't a monster year. I do think that they are probably somewhat close, so I will vote for the second option.
          Last edited by 538280; 01-04-2006, 04:29 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Ted Williams had 42 win shares that year

            Comment


            • #7
              This is actually the reason I brought up the poll. I am amazed that win shares rates the two players the way it does, it is one of the primary reasons I reject win shares. I think Clark had a great season, but Willams 1941 was among the greatest seasons of all time. Ted's ops+ was 235, Clarks was 175. That difference is absolutely huge. I really do not see how one can put them in the same category. Will Clark was great, and his season was underappreciated, but Ted's 1941 is among the greatest seasons ever. One thing I have always wondered, if Mitchell beats Clark in 1989 in ops, ops+ runs created, rc/27, then how does Clark beat mitchell in win shares. This seems to be a flaw in the system, if one player has better offensive metrics, and the two play in the same ballpark.

              Comment


              • #8
                Ted Williams in 1941 recieved 39.62 offensive win shares and 2.26 defensive win shares for a total of 42 win shares. Will Clark had a total of 44 win shares. Bill gives Will slightly more wins for defensive and he gives Will more win shares because of league environment as well as park environment. Will played in Candlestick park while Ted played at Fenway. Will's year was much more less offensive then 1941 AL.

                Over on BP the two are pretty close in value as well but with Ted worth about a win more while Win Shares has Will worth a little under a win more.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I posted this on the Williams vs Musial thread

                  It's not as ridiculous as it seems. The difference in the offensive enviroment is quite significant. The 1941 AL average 4.74 R/G per team. The 1989 NL averaged only 3.94 R/G per team. The 1941 Red Sox scored 865 runs (5.58 R/G). The 1989 Giants scored 699 runs (4.31 runs per game). The 1941 Red Sox scored a substantial amount of runs more the the Giants and they played a shorter schedule. Williams hit in Fenway while Clark hit in Candlestick. Take that and the fact that Clark played 16 more games (that's a lot). Besides James even admits that a the Win shares system is not really precise enough to distinguish between a 44 WS season and a 42 WS season. I think Williams was better on a WS/game basis but not by that much. Clark was simply awesome in 1989.
                  Clark played 16 more games and that is significant. Had both played the same number of games Williams would obviously have more WS. Both seasons are actually quite similar once league context is taken into account. I still think Williams' season was slightly better.
                  Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Williams obp was 198 points above the league average. His slg was 325 points above the league average. His BA was 128 points above the league average. His ops+ was 235. Clark hit 83 points above the league average. His obp was 90 points above the league average. His slg was 173 points above the league average. His ops+ was 175. Those numbers are very far apart. They are not even close. I guess I should be happy, most people are getting this right.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thank, I needed a good chuckle today.
                      "I think about baseball when I wake up in the morning. I think about it all day and I dream about it at night. The only time I don't think about it is when I'm playing it."
                      Carl Yastrzemski

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Williams' 1941: 24.39 Wins by PCA

                        Clark's 1989: 17.45 Wins by PCA

                        :atthepc

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by dl4060
                          Williams obp was 198 points above the league average. His slg was 325 points above the league average. His BA was 128 points above the league average. His ops+ was 235. Clark hit 83 points above the league average. His obp was 90 points above the league average. His slg was 173 points above the league average. His ops+ was 175. Those numbers are very far apart. They are not even close. I guess I should be happy, most people are getting this right.
                          But Clark was playing in a much stronger league, in a much harder park. His peripheral numbers (outside of OPS) were better. HWR mentioned how Clark played more games, he was a better basestealer (Williams was two for six on the bases, Clark was 8 for 11). Clark only grounded into 6 double plays, Williams 10. Clark batted .389 with runners in scoring position, and hit 13 of his 23 HRs with men on base.

                          I think Bill James states it best in Win Shares when he says, "Clark starts out with MVP-type numbers, and everything you look at tends to make him look a little bit better."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I think James did a wonderful job rationalizing a very visible and obvious failure of his system.

                            There simply isn't any way Clark's 1989 was better than Williams' 1941...do all the park adjusting you want...it just doesn't add up. I think I'm closer in this case...CLark 1989 was certainly a great season (13+ offensive wins and 3+ defensive wins...which is downright amazing considering he plays first base)...but Williams hit over .400 and got on base at a .500+ clip..there's just no cmoparing.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Williams by an embarassing margin.
                              Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

                              Comment

                              Ad Widget

                              Collapse
                              Working...
                              X