Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Mickey Mantle V. Willie Mays

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Mickey Mantle V. Willie Mays

    The general opinion of fans is not something I would place much stock in, but in that case I do think they got it right.

  • #2
    Mickey Mantle V. Willie Mays

    Now this has been an opinion I've held for a while now, that Mickey Mantle was better than Willie Mays, now I know it won't be too popular around here...but that doesn't matter too much to me. The backbone of my argument is that Mantle's peak value was higher than Mays' career value.

    I.) Mantle's second best season 1956 he acheived heights that Mays couldn't achieve in his whole career.

    Mays' Career Highs Mantle's 56
    BA: 347 BA: .353
    HR: 52 HR: 52
    RBI: 141 RBI: 130
    OBP: 425 OBP: 464
    SLG: 667 SLG: 705

    Also keep in mind that was Mickey's second best season, his following season was even better where he featured an OPS+ of 223.

    II.) Prime AND Career value Mantle was a demonstrably better hitter than Mays

    Career OPS+
    Mays: 156
    Mantle: 172

    Career OBP
    Mays: .389
    Mantle: .421

    Career SLG
    Mays: .557
    Mantle: .557

    Career BA:

    Mays: .302
    Mantle: .298

    Career K/BB ratio
    Mays: .96
    Mantle: 1.01

    After the 1965 Season (pretty much the end of Mickey's prime) when each had played in exactly 2005 games

    BA
    Mays: .314
    Mantle: .306

    OBP
    Mays: .389
    Mantle: .426 (one point higher than Mays' career high)

    SLG
    Mays: .593
    Mantle: .576

    HR
    Mays: 505
    Mantle: 473

    RBI:
    Mays: 1402
    Mantle: 1344

    ABs:
    Mays: 7594
    Mantle: 6894

    HR% between 1954-1963
    Mays: 6.51
    Mantle: 7.67

    A lot of people like to talk about Willie's base running and talk about how he was the better baserunner, well that isn't exactly as cut and dry as people make it out to be. Mantle was the fastest player in baseball throughout the fifties, and part of the early sixties. He also grounded into far fewer double plays than Willie.

    Mickey's career HIGH GIDPs: 11,11,11,9,9
    Willie's career LOW in full seasons: 8,7,8,11,11

    People don't really notice that Willie's career high OBP is .426 where Mantle's career OBP is .421 ONLY FIVE POINTS LOWER!!!!!!!!

    Mantle's five highest OPS+ seasons: 223, 210, 206, 196, 196
    Career average: 172

    Mays' career high OPS+: 185, 176, 175, 175, 173

    So Mays' fifth best season was only SLIGHTLY better than Mickey's average season;

    Mantle's 7th best OPB+ season was 181 which is only four points lower than Mays' BEST

    All of these things put together leads me to believe that Mantle's career value far outweighs Mays' career value. Plus I know this argument won't have too much pull around here but Mays' Giants were always playing bridesmaid where as the Yankees were consistently in the WS and went 7-5 in them. So all of these things put together lead me to believe that Mantle was the better player and to me it isn't even close.

    Not too many people realize exactly how talented Mickey was, in his prime, a switch hitter who could hit from either side, a five tool player, and the fastest player in baseball.

    Casey Stengel said of Mickey Mantle: "The boy hits balls over buildings, and runs faster than Ty Cobb"

    Also the quote in my signature, is somewhat of a realization as to how good Mickey was.
    Last edited by ChrisLDuncan; 11-28-2006, 10:13 AM.
    "he probably used some performance enhancing drugs so he could do a better job on his report...i hear they make you gain weight" - Dr. Zizmor

    "I thought it was interesting and yes a conversation piece. Next time I post a similar story I will close with the question "So, do you think either of them have used steroids?" so that I can make the topic truly relevant to discussions about today's game." - Eric Davis

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqul1GyK7-g

    Comment


    • #3
      Mays by a little bit. I've got Mays 3rd overall and Mantle 5th.

      Mantle did have the better peak, but Mays had a lot more career value. Mantle's career rates that you listed above were accomplished in 2,584 less plate appearances than Mays had.

      Career win shares:
      Mays - 642 (with almost 2 seasons missed due to war service)
      Mantle - 565

      Career Runs Created:
      Mays - 2344
      Mantle - 1919

      Plus Mays has a substantial edge on defense.

      And even in the stats you showed through 1965, Mays seemed to have a slight edge on Mantle. And Mays was able to accomplish quite a bit after that.

      It's very close, though. It all pretty much depends on how much weight you give to Mantle's amazing peak.
      Last edited by mwiggins; 11-28-2006, 10:36 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        I agree with you that Mantle was a little better. I wrote down why on another thread but I am re-posting much of my reasoning here.
        • OBA to league - Mantle 130.0 vs. Mays 116.7
        • Slg to league - Mantle 143.9 vs. Mays 139.3
        • OPS + Adj - Mantle 172 vs Mays 156
        • Runs scored per out - Mantle .284 vs Mays .256
        • RBI per out - .256 vs Mays .236


        Even some of the little things favor Mantle:
        • GIDP only 113 for Mantle vs. 251 Mays
        • SB% 80% Mantle vs 76% Mays.


        Mays has better counting stats and was a better fielder so that helps the case for Mays. Mays for instance won 12 GG vs 1 for Mantle. However, Mantle had almost 10,000 PA and played 18 years so he had a long career.

        Also here's a few stats that tips the scales for me:
        • World Series Played - Mantle 11 vs. Mays 4
        • World Series Won - Mantle 7 vs. Mays 1
        • Post-season stats - Mantle 18 HR/230 AB, Mays 1 HR/89 AB
        • MVP Awards - Mantle 3 vs. Mays 2


        **The best player on the best team in baseball. I find it hard to argue against that.
        "Batting slumps? I never had one. When a guy hits .358, he doesn't have slumps."

        Rogers Hornsby, 1961

        Comment


        • #5
          I think Mantle in his best seasons was probably as good a player as has ever played the game. However, he blew out a lot sooner than Mays and thus has less career value. Also, I strongly believe that during Mays' and Mantle's time the gap bewteen the leagues was rather large. That is not enough to close the peak gap between them, but enough to make it a lot smalller. WARP3 for example has their peaks being virtually the same.

          Basically I think Mays has more career value than what Mantle can make up for peak. I certainly think Mantle has a case though-it largely depends on how much you favor peak vs. career. Mantle was a better hitter than Mays in his best seasons, and over their career based on rates, but given Mays' longevity there is a good argument to be made that Mays was not far behind as a hitter because of that added career value (would Mantle's OPS+ have stayed higher than Mays' if he had the same number of PAs as Mays?) Mantle was better at his best, but Mays has a much more sustained and consistent level of performance.

          Comment


          • #6
            I have Mantle higher than Mays, although I should mention that any LQ adjustments I make is based on very casual observation, rather than detailed analysis. Also, I place a higher value on peak compared to career than many people do.
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDxgNjMTPIs

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by 538280
              Mantle was better at his best, but Mays has a much more sustained and consistent level of performance.
              Well Mantle's lack of career value is a bit his fault and a bit out of his control. His alcholism and the fact that he chased women left and right, however he also had a bone diease that he didn't know about untill he hit his decline. He also blew out his knee in 1951 when Joe D called him off on a fly ball in the OF, he stoped dead in his tracks as he stepped on a sprinkler head at YS killed his knee. After that he had knee problems through out his career and it was always something that was ailing him. Somewhat similar to Grifey Jr.execpt he played through the pain. I wonder how good he could have been if he had not had a bone diease and healthy legs.
              "he probably used some performance enhancing drugs so he could do a better job on his report...i hear they make you gain weight" - Dr. Zizmor

              "I thought it was interesting and yes a conversation piece. Next time I post a similar story I will close with the question "So, do you think either of them have used steroids?" so that I can make the topic truly relevant to discussions about today's game." - Eric Davis

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqul1GyK7-g

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by 538280
                Also, I strongly believe that during Mays' and Mantle's time the gap bewteen the leagues was rather large.
                Which league was better in your opinion? Do you have any statistical evidence to back up your claim or is this entirely subjective. Looking at World Series inter-league play, the leagues appear fairly even. All Star games favored the NL but I don't consider that the definitive source for making a determination. I don't think that there was a perceptible difference. Certainly not enough to discount Mantle's performance.
                "Batting slumps? I never had one. When a guy hits .358, he doesn't have slumps."

                Rogers Hornsby, 1961

                Comment


                • #9
                  Mays defense and added career value are hard to overlook. Mantle was capable of great plays in CF, but had problems staying focused on it. These are two of the finest players to every slip on a uniform, so I am not dogmatic about who was better. My feeling is that Mays' career value, including defense, offsets Mantle's peak value.

                  And, to me, it doesn't matter why Mantle's career was shorter. All that matters is that it was.
                  Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The same arguement your using could be used against Cobb too Chris, who I believe you rank number 1 ( I may be wrong here). Mantle's peak was clearly better, without even adjusting for league quality - Toss in a subjective league quality adjustment, and their peaks aren't even close. But like Mays, Cobb has the edge career-wise due to longevity.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Bench 5
                      Which league was better in your opinion? Do you have any statistical evidence to back up your claim or is this entirely subjective. Looking at World Series inter-league play, the leagues appear fairly even. All Star games favored the NL but I don't consider that the definitive source for making a determination. I don't think that there was a perceptible difference. Certainly not enough to discount Mantle's performance.
                      The basis for giving the NL the edge is that it integrated sooner and faster than the AL. That seems reasonable to me.
                      "Any pitcher who throws at a batter and deliberately tries to hit him is a communist."

                      - Alvin Dark

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I think Mays is just a bit better hitter. On my all time hitters list, I have Mays 5th and Mantle 7th.
                        "He studied hitting like a broker studies the stock market, how a scribe studies the scriptures" - Carl Yastrzemski on Ted Williams

                        "The greatest clutch hitter in Red Sox history has done it again! Big Papi!" - Don Orsillo's call of Ortiz's walk-off single

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I have Mays on top, though at their respective bests, Mantle was the better of the two.

                          But Mays lasted longer (~500 Games), and that's not even including the 2 seasons he missed at the beginning of his career, which I do give credit for.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Have to put my money on the Say Hey Kid. That guy was just baseball to me.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by keepthefaith3
                              I think Mays is just a bit better hitter. On my all time hitters list, I have Mays 5th and Mantle 7th.
                              What exactly makes you say that?
                              "he probably used some performance enhancing drugs so he could do a better job on his report...i hear they make you gain weight" - Dr. Zizmor

                              "I thought it was interesting and yes a conversation piece. Next time I post a similar story I will close with the question "So, do you think either of them have used steroids?" so that I can make the topic truly relevant to discussions about today's game." - Eric Davis

                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqul1GyK7-g

                              Comment

                              Ad Widget

                              Collapse
                              Working...
                              X