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Mickey Mantle V. Willie Mays

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  • #31
    Originally posted by honestiago
    Mantle posted prodigious numbers DESPITE playing in constant pain. He basically played his entire career handicapped, and STILL had numbers equal to, if not better than, Mays. Given the choice between the two at the peak of their careers, I'd take Mantle for the simple reason that he can bat from both sides of the plate.
    This seems to fit here.....
    Attached Files
    "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

    ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Edgartohof
      You know what, I was just thinking, if Mays hadn't missed those years (1952-1953), he could have made up those 55 HR's over those two seasons, and passed Ruth before Aaron did, assuming the rest of his career was the same. Because he would have passed Ruth in 1973, whereas Aaron didn't pass Ruth until 1974. Now Aaron would still eventually have become the HR king, but that definitely puts a change on things.
      And he would have had about 12,000 AB.

      Anyone have Mays' Polo Grounds splits?
      "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

      ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
        And he would have had about 12,000 AB.

        Anyone have Mays' Polo Grounds splits?
        He would have added 4,000 ABs in 2 years?

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by stevebogus
          As for extra base hits, one comment suggested that Yankee Stadium was a good park for XBH, and that Mantle wasn't a good baserunner. This is absolutely false. Yankee Stadium was a good park for triples, but poor for doubles. But the primary reason Mantle hit relatively few doubles is probably the same reason he hit into so few doubleplays. He was a flyball hitter. Most doubles don't come from deep flys, they are usually shots down the line or liners in the gaps. And, from about 1963 to the end of his career, Mantle essentially stopped trying to take the extra base.
          Always interested in hearing from someone who watched a lot of Mantle. Is this the case? If so, can you elaborate a bit more?

          I have no trouble believing Mantle was a fly ball hitter. That can be said for many hitters though, who put up much better double and triple numbers in Yankee Stadium. His numbers are absurdly low and cannot imo, be explained by simply saying "he was a fly ball hitter." Check out the numbers. No matter how much of a "fly ball" hitter you are, there are always opportunities for extra base hits. Get a bit out in front and turn on one down the line, get some top-spin on a hard hit gapper. The opportunities are always there. My guess is that he just didn't tear out of the box the way Ruth, Gehrig and others did. Took the expected doubles and if an outfielder happened to bobble or misplay it, he took the extra base...but rarely did he force the issue, otherwise his extra base hit numbers would be higher. Again though, I was born in '77 so I'm basing this on the numbers I'm presented with, knowledge of YS and its impact on various hitters, and over 20 years of ballplaying experience. If you saw a lot of Mantle your word carries a lot of weight.
          "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

          ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by mwiggins
            His list on the Members Official Opinions thread has Cobb, DiMaggio, Mantle, and Speaker ahead of Mays...in that order.
            Yeah my basis for having DiMaggio over Mantle is purely subjective and I have little to no statistical evidence to back it up. Cobb over Mays because of reasons listed by Bill Burgess and other Cobb supporters. Mantle over Mays because of reasons listed in my first post. Speaker over Mays due to Speaker's D, and career stats.
            "he probably used some performance enhancing drugs so he could do a better job on his report...i hear they make you gain weight" - Dr. Zizmor

            "I thought it was interesting and yes a conversation piece. Next time I post a similar story I will close with the question "So, do you think either of them have used steroids?" so that I can make the topic truly relevant to discussions about today's game." - Eric Davis

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqul1GyK7-g

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            • #36
              Originally posted by EvanAparra
              He would have added 4,000 ABs in 2 years?
              Quick math lesson

              10,881 AB as is.

              Give him 570 AB for '53 and about 450 more for '52.

              Total = 11,901 and the 570 is pretty conservative...he had over that (sometimes well over that) TEN times before '65.
              "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

              ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by JRB
                Chris. You seem to be relying a great deal on this book by Craig Wright in forming your views. However, the passage you cited seems partially inaccurate. If you've quoted him correctly, he seems to be making the claim that a second wave of Feguson Jenkins, Willie McCovey, Dick Allen, Willie Stargell, Billy Williams, Bob Gibson etc. joined Jackie Robinson, Roy Campanella, Monte Irvin, Willie Mays, and Hank Aaron, etc, in the National League However, Jackie Robinson, Campanella and Irvin were long out of baseball before those other players came into the National league, and the players he is referring to came into the league in a staggered fashion, and not really a wave. Jackie's last year was 1956. Roy was paralyzed in an auto accident and didn't play after 1957. Monte Irvin's last year was 1956. Ferguson Jenkins made his first minimal appearance in 1965, appearing in just a few games, and the next year was just 6-8, and it wasn't until 1967 that he started making any impact, which is more than a decade after these other players stopped playing. Richie Allen's rookie year was 1964. Willie Stargell made his first appearance in 1962, however he wasn't making any impact until the 64-65 time frame. McCovey was rookie of the year as a part time player in 1959, however he did not become a full time player until 1963, and then he again slipped in 1964 and did not become a full time player for good until 1965. Although, Billy Willliams made some appearances as early as 1959, he was essentially a rookie in 1961. Bob Gibson made his first appearance in 1959 but didn't become a regular pitcher until 1961, and didn't really become a star pitcher until 1963. I hope you weren't trying to create the impression that Mays had to compete against all these players at the same time, because that would be misleading. Mays had been in the league 10 years before Billy Willliams made any impact. Mays had been in the league 13 years before Allen's rookie year, and 13 years before Stargell started making any impact. Mays had been in the league 16 years before Ferguson Jenkins made any impact, etc. Most of these players didn't become impact players until Mays' late prime and twighlight years.
                Great post.

                Waiting for Chris' response. Exactly who were these titans of color that Mays was battling with his entire career?
                "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

                ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF

                Comment


                • #38
                  I was on Mantle's bbref page, and thought I was on Mays'. My bad. Thanks for the lesson though.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by EvanAparra
                    I was on Mantle's bbref page, and thought I was on Mays'. My bad. Thanks for the lesson though.
                    It happens
                    "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

                    ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by ChrisLDuncan
                      I agree with you totally on this execpt for Sanders, Emmitt was better he was tough a true man's running back didn't need any flashy moves just beat you head on and got the tough yards even won Dallas Home Field Advantage in the playoffs with a separated shoulder at Giants Stadium. But that's off topic.
                      Emmitt also had one of the greatest offensive lines ever blocking for him, but you're right that's off topic.....
                      Red, it took me 16 years to get here. Play me, and you'll get the best I got.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by torez77
                        Emmitt also had one of the greatest offensive lines ever blocking for him, but you're right that's off topic.....
                        LOL. Hear it all the time, never saw it

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by EvanAparra
                          LOL. Hear it all the time, never saw it
                          Then you and I were watching different games. All I can say is, give Barry Sanders Dallas' offensive lines in those years, and we would've seen 2,500 yards easily. But did you hear me?! This is OFF TOPIC!
                          Red, it took me 16 years to get here. Play me, and you'll get the best I got.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            ---deleted post---
                            Last edited by EvanAparra; 11-29-2006, 08:35 PM.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
                              Always interested in hearing from someone who watched a lot of Mantle. Is this the case? If so, can you elaborate a bit more?
                              I wish I could say that I saw Mantle play. I'm from Chicago, and if my Dad ever took me to see the Yankees play when I was a kid I can't remember it.

                              You are correct in saying that it isn't as simple as Mantle's being a flyball hitter. I don't believe he was an extreme flyball hitter, because players like that (Killebrew, Kingman, etc.) almost never manage to bat .300 for a season, never mind a decade at a stretch. I was a Frank Thomas watcher for years, and when he stopped hitting .300 it was due to more flyballs. Too many easy flyouts and popouts. I do believe it was a factor, but Mantle probably didn't hit more than 55%-60% in the air. The major difference was balls in play. Mantle walked more than Mays, struck out more than Mays, and missed more games than Mays. Mays would put 100 more balls in play per season. Even if he wasn't a more aggressive baserunner Mays was going to easily get more doubles and triples. If you compare percentages of XBH on balls in play (not counting HRs) Mays was at 7.55% while Mantle was 7.05%. If Mantle could match Mays' rate he would gain perhaps 2 XBH per season. But if Mickey could put ~480 balls in play per season instead of 380 he would gain 7 XBH on average.

                              Incidentally, Frank Robinson was an aggressive baserunner like Mays, and by this measure he was at 7.51%, similar to Willie. Henry Aaron, a more cautious player, was at 6.98%. Aaron usually got more XBH because he was regularly hitting 500+ balls in play per season.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by stevebogus
                                Mantle walked more than Mays, struck out more than Mays, and missed more games than Mays. Mays would put 100 more balls in play per season. Even if he wasn't a more aggressive baserunner Mays was going to easily get more doubles and triples. If you compare percentages of XBH on balls in play (not counting HRs) Mays was at 7.55% while Mantle was 7.05%. If Mantle could match Mays' rate he would gain perhaps 2 XBH per season. But if Mickey could put ~480 balls in play per season instead of 380 he would gain 7 XBH on average.
                                Understood.

                                Looking at Mantle compared with other Yankees...even the Meusels and the Lazzeris, his extra base hit numbers just seem odd, especially for such a spacious ballpark in the gaps.
                                "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

                                ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF

                                Comment

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