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Is Joe Morgan in your top 20?

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  • Is Joe Morgan in your top 20?

    The idea of this thread is to convince me (or anyone) that Joe Morgan is one of the 20 greatest players ever. Someone posted in another thread that Joe was EASILY a top 20 player. I didn't think so, but I'd like to know if that is the general concensus.

    Remember: Top 20 (pitchers included)

    Joe's Relative Stats:

    ----Relative BA-----Rel.Slg.-------Rel.onbase----Rel.ISO-------OPS+
    --------1.04------------1.20 ----------1.11 -----------------------132 (128th)

    Home/Away------BA----Slg.----onbase---HR-----D----T-----RBI------AB------BB
    Home:---------.275---434-----.408------122---233---54----560-----4,448----978
    Away:---------.268---.420-----.383------146---216---42----573-----4,829----887
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Here are the results of our 1st. 2B poll, conducted by leecemark, November 5, 2004, 10:37 PM

    The final tally for the secondbase man voting:

    1. Rogers Hornsby 140
    2. Eddie Collins 133
    3. Joe Morgan 110
    4. Nap Lajoie 107
    5. Charlie Gehringer 73
    6. Jackie Robinson 70
    7. Frankie Frisch 39
    8. Ryne Sandberg 37
    9. Roberto Alomar 25
    10. Craig Biggio 23
    Others receiving more than one vote; Joe Gordon, Bobby Grich and Rod Carew.
    ------------------------------------------------
    Here are the results of our 2nd. poll, conducted by 538280, November 7, 2005, 04:04 AM

    The results are now in. In a very close poll, Rogers Hornsby retains his spot as the BBF #1 second basemen. He received a very close push from Eddie Collins and Joe Morgan. Here are the final results out of the 17 ballots submitted (first place votes in parenthesis):

    1. Rogers Hornsby-165 (8)
    2. Eddie Collins-161 (4)
    3. Joe Morgan-146 (4)
    4. Nap Lajoie-122
    5. Charlie Gehringer-92 (1)
    6. Jackie Robinson-89
    7. Craig Biggio-54
    8. Roberto Alomar-43
    9. Rod Carew-33
    10. Ryne Sandberg-31
    11. Frankie Frisch-22

    No one else received more than 20 points.
    ---------------------------------------
    Here are the results of our 3rd. poll, conducted by Bill Burgess, May 4, 2007, 11:07 AM

    I left out natsnsoxfan's ballot, because he didn't put them in order. Adding it all up, I have:

    1. Rogers Hornsby - 225
    2. Eddie Collins - 205
    3. Joe Morgan - 195
    4. Nap Lajoie - 171
    5. Jackie Robinson - 113
    6. Charlie Gehringer - 97
    7. Craig Biggio - 70
    8. Roberto Alomar - 57
    9. Rod Carew - 41
    10. Ryne Sandberg - 39
    11. Jeff Kent - 20
    12. Frankie Frisch - 16
    13. Nellie Fox - 4
    14. Bobby Grich - 3
    15t. Lou Whitaker - 2
    15t. Bid McPhee - 2
    15t. Joe Gordon - 2
    18. Billy Herman - 1

    BB Reference---Is Joe Morgan in your top 20?---Morganites Unite!---New Look at the Hornsby/Morgan Debate Threads/Photos

    --------Joe Morgan, Reds' 2B, 1972-79-------------------------1972-79------------------------------1972-79


    ------------------------------Joe Morgan, Reds' 2B, 1972-79----------------------------------------1972-79


    Joe Morgan, Astros' 2B, 1966/Sonny Jackson, Astros' SS, 1966--------------Joe Morgan, 1972-79.


    -------------------------Joe Morgan, Reds' 2B, 1975 World Series---BB Reference--------------Joe Morgan, Phillies' 2B, 1983 World Series Phillies/Orioles.

    44
    I rank Joe Morgan in My Top 1-10 players, including pitchers.
    0.00%
    0
    I rank Joe Morgan in my Top 11-20 players, including pitchers.
    25.00%
    11
    I rank Joe Morgan in my Top 21-30 players, including pitchers.
    18.18%
    8
    I rank Joe Morgan in my Top 31-40 players, including pitchers.
    29.55%
    13
    I rank Joe Morgan in my Top 41-50 players, including pitchers.
    13.64%
    6
    I rank Joe Morgan lower than top 50th players, including pitchers.
    13.64%
    6
    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 08-10-2009, 12:41 PM.

  • #2
    No, I wouldn't agree that he's EASILY a top 20 player. But I think, even with pitchers included, he belongs in the mid-to-late teens.
    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 05-17-2009, 09:57 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      He doesn't quite crack my top 50. The only non-catcher in my top 20 who didn't have a career .300 BA is Mickey Mantle, and he was well over a .300 hitter for most of his career.
      "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

      Sean McAdam, ESPN.com

      Comment


      • #4
        --I've got him at #14 without pitchers. I usually don't mix pitchers and positition players in my rankings, but Morgan might get pushed out of the top 20 if I did.

        Comment


        • #5
          1. Ruth
          2. Aaron
          3. Mays
          4. Mantle
          5. Foxx
          6. Brett
          7. Molitor
          8. Cobb
          9. Ted Williams
          10. Kaline
          11. Eddie Collins
          12. Speaker
          13. Gerhig
          14. Musial
          15. Yaz
          16. Honus Wagner
          17. Gwynn
          18. Lajoie
          19. Brock
          20. Frank Robinson

          Here's a list of great ball players. This is not my top 20, but it's a list of 20. This list contains NO pitchers and NO "suspected" steroid users. Who here does Morgan bump off of the list? If you name someone, I'll throw someone else up there.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by tommydale1
            Who here does Morgan bump off of the list? If you name someone, I'll throw someone else up there.
            He easily belongs ahead of Molitor, Brock, and Gwynn.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by tommydale1
              Who here does Morgan bump off of the list? If you name someone, I'll throw someone else up there.
              --Lots of room for Morgan on this list

              Comment


              • #8
                He loses a few spots in my rankings because he just had a slightly above average BA, but he did enough other things very well - much like Schmidt & Mathews - to make up for that weakness.

                Much of his Morgan's claim to fame is his great mid-70's peak, and during those years he WAS a very good hitter for average. His relative BA's are very good during those years:

                1972 - 1.17
                1973 - 1.13
                1974 - 1.12
                1975 - 1.22
                1976 - 1.21

                Comment


                • #9
                  Lou Brock wishes he had Morgan's career, or at least he should. That's batting and defense, with basestealing maybe even but probably tilted to Morgan.
                  (fantasy football)
                  JM: Only did that for a couple of years and then we had a conspiracy so it kind of turned me sour. Our league's commissioner, Lew Ford(notes) at the time, was doing some shady things that ... I'd rather not talk about [laughs].
                  DB: Isn't he in Japan right now?
                  JM: I don't know where Lou is right now. He's probably fleeing the authorities [laughs].

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I like the feedback I'm getting. I guess I never noticed the amount of walks Morgan had. That alone makes me concede Brock.

                    Molitor and Yaz beat Morgan soundly in career stats. What am I missing?

                    With Kaline, Brock, Gwynn, Brett, Kaline, Lajoie...what particular stats are you looking at to say that Morgan is better?

                    It's not hits, Avg., or slg %....is it the walks?
                    Last edited by tommydale1; 12-06-2006, 07:44 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      --Which career stats? Even if you think Molitor was a better hitter, Morgan was a good defensive 2B while Molitor never found a position and eventually played more DH than anything else. Huge difference. Yaz was a good defensive LF, but that is way down the chart from 2B also. That plus Morgan baserunning give him the edge IMO. For that matter Morgan may be the better hitter without considering the other factors.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Morgan is, at worst, a borderline top 50 player. Lou Brock a borderline top 150 player.

                        He was a great baserunner/stealer and hit for a pretty good average; but was just average at getting on base and hitting for power, was a poor fielder, and struckout a ton. Tremendous raw talent, but just couldn't put it together on the field. With his speed, if he'd have focused on being a great defender and being more disciplined at the plate, instead of trying to hit for power, he'd probably have been one of the all-time greats.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by leecemark
                          --Which career stats? Even if you think Molitor was a better hitter, Morgan was a good defensive 2B while Molitor never found a position and eventually played more DH than anything else. Huge difference.
                          Defensively, Joe Morgan was as good of a second baseman as you'll find. Maybe you give defense more weight than I do, but Morgan is not a better hitter than Molitor, IMHO.

                          This might be easier if you give me your top 20 with Morgan in place.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by tommydale1
                            Molitor and Yaz beat Morgan soundly in career stats. What am I missing?
                            Yaz is close, but Molitor is a long ways back of Morgan.

                            Relative BA:
                            Morgan - 1.04
                            Yaz - 1.08
                            Molitor - 1.16

                            Relative OBP:
                            Morgan - 1.20
                            Yaz - 1.13
                            Molitor - 1.11

                            Relative SLG:
                            Morgan - 1.12
                            Yaz - 1.16
                            Molitor - 1.11

                            SB's:
                            Morgan - 689 (81%)
                            Yaz - 168 (59%)
                            Molitor - 504 (79%)

                            Career Win Shares:
                            Morgan - 512
                            Yaz - 488
                            Molitor - 412

                            Morgan has a huge edge on Molitor on defensively. And even though Yaz was very good on defense, a slightly above average secondbasemen tops a very good LF, so he's got the edge there too.

                            Morgan's peak also destroys Molitor's. His 5 best OPS+ seasons averaged 163. Molitor's averaged 146. And Morgan was putting up those hitting numbers as a GG 2B with a lot of steals. Molitor was putting them up as mostly as a DH.

                            Yaz hit a little better in his best seasons (170 OPS+), but because of Morgan's defense and SB's, his best years were better than Yaz's as well.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by tommydale1
                              Morgan is not a better hitter than Molitor, IMHO.
                              Actually Morgan was a better hitter than Molitor. Molly was a much better hitter for average, but Morgan was much better at getting on base and had a bit more pop than Molly. And Morgan's hitting during his peak years was quite a bit better than Molitor's during his peak seasons.

                              Comment

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