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OK, Shoeless Joe vs Dick Allen

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  • OK, Shoeless Joe vs Dick Allen

    Inspired by DoubleX!

    Who was the better hitter?
    44
    Shoeless Joe
    75.00%
    33
    Dick "Don't Call Me Richard" Allen
    25.00%
    11
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

  • #2
    Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules
    Inspired by DoubleX!

    Who was the better hitter?
    That was ridiculously fast! I just posted in the other thread like less than two minutes ago!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by DoubleX
      That was ridiculously fast! I just posted in the other thread like less than two minutes ago!
      I'm bored!
      Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

      Comment


      • #4
        --Allen's relative stats are just a shade behind vs a MUCH tougher league. IMO Shoeless Joe should lose again. Not that I think it will happen.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules
          I'm bored!
          Me too!

          Comment


          • #6
            Allen will probably get trounced in this poll. But he was, of course, a FAR superior hitter. The fact that no one seems to realize that is, well, not my problem.

            Comment


            • #7
              Well, does anybody (especially those who might be bored) wish to refigure Allen's OPS+ if you drop his last 3-4 seasons to even off the number of AB/PA? That would be useful in this discussion, particularly since they have such different emphases in their hitting.

              Jim Albright
              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by 538280
                Allen will probably get trounced in this poll. But he was, of course, a FAR superior hitter. The fact that no one seems to realize that is, well, not my problem.
                Oh yes, Chris, please enlighten us with your vastly superior intellect and baseball knowledge. That's a pretty cocky statement from a 13 year given the combined knowedge of everyone else here at BBF.
                Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 01-11-2006, 07:48 PM.
                Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules
                  Oh yes, Chris, please enlighten us with your vastly superior intellect and baseball knowledge. That's a pretty cocky statement from a 13 year given the combined knowedge of everyone else here at BBF.
                  All right, maybe that post doesn't quite sound the way I wanted it to. What I basically meant was "Dick Allen is one of the most underrated hitters in the history of the game. Many people don't realize his greatness because they fail to make proper era adjustments. Joe Jackson is one of the most overrated players ever by many. People should realize this, but for some reason they don't."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 538280
                    All right, maybe that post doesn't quite sound the way I wanted it to. What I basically meant was "Dick Allen is one of the most underrated hitters in the history of the game. Many people don't realize his greatness because they fail to make proper era adjustments. Joe Jackson is one of the most overrated players ever by many. People should realize this, but for some reason they don't."
                    I agree Allen is very underrated.
                    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I much prefer Joe Jackson. His OPS versus the league is +.251 while Allen's is a "mere" +.205.
                      Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Dick Allen...and it's not as close as this poll will make it look.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by KCGHOST
                          I much prefer Joe Jackson. His OPS versus the league is +.251 while Allen's is a "mere" +.205.
                          This is EXACTLY what I mean.

                          So we're just going to ignore the fact Allen played in the 1960s and 1970s AND went through his decline phase, while Jackson never got the chance to decline and played in the 1910s?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I agree Allen is underrated, but I don't believe Jackson is overrated.
                            "I think about baseball when I wake up in the morning. I think about it all day and I dream about it at night. The only time I don't think about it is when I'm playing it."
                            Carl Yastrzemski

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Agreed...

                              ALL players decline...it might not be a large decline...but they all decline...and you can bet the second half of Jackson's career would have had a lower OPS+ than the first half because the statistical probability of a player having a second half OPS+ greater than the first half is something like half a percent.

                              More importantly, although OPS+ is league indexed, it is much more difficult to get a high OPS+ in a balanced pitcher-favoring league than it is in a radically unbalanced pitcher favorable era. The deadball era was very weak in terms of overall talent disposition by modern standards...meaning we should expect a bigger gap between the stars and the rest. That means the stars will have a better chance of a high OPS+

                              In Allen's era, the league was highly balanced...he faced great pitching CONSISTANTLY...the best hitters of his time struggled to hit 150 for an OPS+ on a regular basis...the same cannot be said of the deadball era and especially not the 20s.

                              Comment

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