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  • #46
    --He might have cracked the top 5 had he not gotten sick. He wasn't going to pass the Babe (amoung others) though.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by wamby
      I recently read a pretty good biography of Gehrig. Reading this book has convinced me that Lou Gehrig's 1939 season was the most amazing season ever for a player in the history of the game.
      I think you mean '38, when symptoms had already shown and he still put up respectable numbers.

      That book; was it "Luckiest Man" ?

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
        I think you mean '38, when symptoms had already shown and he still put up respectable numbers.

        That book; was it "Luckiest Man" ?
        I mean 1939 when Gehrig, while suffering from an advanced case of ALS, was able to suit up for eight games and with his neural network breaking down in profound ways, he was still able to get four hits off of major League pitching.

        It was the Jonathan Eig book.

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        • #49
          Yeah, that's Luckiest Man; great book.

          Suiting up in '39 is very impressive. '38 though, while dealing with the early signs and battling through, to put up numbers that anyone would be proud of; that's remarkable.

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          • #50
            As for both of them playing so many games consecutive, they were both very durable.

            A bit off the subject here of Gehrig.. Musial. In some earlier threads it was often brought up that there were some instances where Gehrig's streak was kept alive by some games where he played only a few innings, in one game only one inning, where Ripken played many more innings.

            Let me say I have no desire, no intention of starting a Gehrig versus Ripken debate. I respect both and in their time they played as steady, steadier than anyone in their time. Different conditions in the times they played in.

            My point here is that even with some incomplete games what Gehrig did do was incredible. Some where I have some figures (I'll look for them) for some periods of time that took place during Gehrig's streak. It was not uncommon during that period of the game for teams to play two, and in some cases three double headers in one week. Some scheduled DHs and some to make up for rain outs. I found a fair number of weeks where Lou played two or three double headers over a 6 day period with some single games played in between those double headers and he played every inning of every game over those 6 days. I found one period where he played two double headers over three days and in the week before that he played three double headers over a five day period.

            Those games where he did not play every inning certainly do not diminish what took place over the whole streak.

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            • #51
              Ubi,

              Originally posted by Ubiquitous
              There is no fantasy but I think a misinterpretation of what I said. I said that Gehrig's AL years league quality was higher then Musials NL league quality of the 40's and first half of the 50's. And that wasn't really until the end of his career that league quality becomes close or eclipses Gehrigs.
              Doesn't the statement above ^


              Originally posted by Ubiquitous
              After WWII and integration I think the NL in terms of overall quality was higher then the AL's of that era.
              Contradict this one above? ^ WWII ended in 45, integration started in the late 40's.

              As to the relative integration, I still haven't found that article with the exact figures yet, but I did find this: Musial played 18 more seasons after WWII, and was an ironman in the 50's. He played well past age 40, and by that time his league was very much integrated with the best black players in America.

              By the mid Fifties all NL teams except the Cardinals and the hapless Phillies featured at least one black headed for the Hall of Fame. Between 1949 and 1962, blacks won 11 of the 14 NL MVP awards, while no black was the AL MVP until Yankee catcher Elston Howard in 1963. And the AL lacked an African-American superstar until Frank Robinson arrived via a 1966 trade and promptly showed the league what it had been missing by capturing the Triple Crown.

              More on this when I have time.

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              • #52
                no.

                This isn't complicated.

                Gehrig years of 1925 to 1938 took place in league of higher quality then Musials years of 1942 to 1963 overall. With Musials first half 1942 to somewhere in the mid-50's definitely being lower then Gehrigs years. AFter it is equal or better.

                Now then after WWII and integration the NL of the late 40's and on was of higher quality then the AL of the late 40's. If it wasn't it was at the very least equal to it. But that doesn't mean the late 40's NL was equal to Gehrig's era league.

                Yes Stan played until the 60's and the league was fully integrated and in all probability higher quality in the downside of his career. He still had some great years in him but the majority of his career he played in a league that was not fully integrated, and like I said by the time it was he was an old man.

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                • #53
                  --I'd be inclined to agree (in fact I think its pretty clear cut) that the NL of the first part of Musial's career was not as good as the AL in the first part of Gehrigs. I think an argument can be made either way on the middle part of their careers, but I'd likely go with Musial's NL. The NL of the latter part of Musial's career was better than any of Gehrig's competition. Old man Musial held his own pretty well against that level of play.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3
                    As for both of them playing so many games consecutive, they were both very durable.

                    A bit off the subject here of Gehrig.. Musial. In some earlier threads it was often brought up that there were some instances where Gehrig's streak was kept alive by some games where he played only a few innings, in one game only one inning, where Ripken played many more innings.

                    Let me say I have no desire, no intention of starting a Gehrig versus Ripken debate. I respect both and in their time they played as steady, steadier than anyone in their time. Different conditions in the times they played in.

                    My point here is that even with some incomplete games what Gehrig did do was incredible. Some where I have some figures (I'll look for them) for some periods of time that took place during Gehrig's streak. It was not uncommon during that period of the game for teams to play two, and in some cases three double headers in one week. Some scheduled DHs and some to make up for rain outs. I found a fair number of weeks where Lou played two or three double headers over a 6 day period with some single games played in between those double headers and he played every inning of every game over those 6 days. I found one period where he played two double headers over three days and in the week before that he played three double headers over a five day period.

                    Those games where he did not play every inning certainly do not diminish what took place over the whole streak.
                    All good points Shoeless, also Lou played all his games, except maybe for a handfull at the very end, in the heat of the afternoon. I was also wondering, that if the hotels they stayed in and the trains they rode had air conditioning back in the 30's? My guess would be that a lot of them didn't.
                    It Might Be? It Could Be?? It Is!

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by 64Cards
                      All good points Shoeless, also Lou played all his games, except maybe for a handfull at the very end, in the heat of the afternoon. I was also wondering, that if the hotels they stayed in and the trains they rode had air conditioning back in the 30's? My guess would be that a lot of them didn't.
                      Gehrig never played a night game.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by 64Cards
                        All good points Shoeless, also Lou played all his games, except maybe for a handfull at the very end, in the heat of the afternoon. I was also wondering, that if the hotels they stayed in and the trains they rode had air conditioning back in the 30's? My guess would be that a lot of them didn't.
                        No air conditioning on trains; and pretty sure none in hotels.

                        During spring training, on scorching hot days, they would wear rubber shirts in hopes of sweating off some of their extra offseason weight. They didn't drink water, just sweated.

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                        • #57
                          Two of baseball's greatest and most respected players. Both also had the durability records at one time. Gehrig held the record for consecutive games until Cal broke it. And Musial once held the National League record for that category - though it was considerably less games than Lou (Billy Williams broke that NL record).

                          But, since both players were great, durable and lasted a long time, I'll give the vote to Stan simply because he was a Cardinal.

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                          • #58
                            Great post about league quality.

                            Also, if Stan was such a great fielder, why the switch from left in mid career?

                            I picked Gehirg and the league quality in the pre integration and war years seals it for Lou IMHO.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by 64Cards
                              All good points Shoeless, also Lou played all his games, except maybe for a handfull at the very end, in the heat of the afternoon. I was also wondering, that if the hotels they stayed in and the trains they rode had air conditioning back in the 30's? My guess would be that a lot of them didn't.
                              From what I could find the first use of air conditioning on trains was in 1931, B&O Rail Lines. It was said to be not very efficiant but it was a start. Most other rail lines got on board ( pun intended) in the mid to late 1930s.

                              Hotels air conditioned, don't know much about that but I believe they also began the use of air conditioning wide spread in the mid 1930s. I did find that the first to use air conditioning was limited to some large department stores and theaters in the 1920s.

                              For us "older guys" I can remember as late as the late 1950s escaping the heat by going into a restaurant or a theater most homes were not air conditioned. The restaurants and theaters all had those big "cool inside" banners on display. As a kitd I can actually remember going to the theater just to cool off for a few hours.
                              Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 01-14-2006, 05:22 AM.

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                              • #60
                                [QUOTE=wamby] When I touched on the streak a few posts ago I did say I did not intend to make the issue Lou versus Cal, they both did something in their times no one else did, not to mention two of the classier guys in thier respective times.

                                I only touched on the fact that although Lou did not play every inning he played in a good number of weeks with two and three double headers and some single games in between and played every inning of all games played in that week.

                                Just two examples.

                                September 17-18-19 1932 on those 3 dates the Yanks played a double header, 6 games in 3 days. Gehrig played every inning of every game.

                                September 8-9-10, 1932 the Yanks played a double header 3 consectutive games. Lou played every inning of every game.

                                September 8.
                                First game-------------14 innings
                                Second game-----------7 innings game called darkness

                                September 9.
                                First game-------------14 innings Lou had 8 RBI's in this game
                                Second game-----------5 innings game called, darkness

                                September 10
                                First game-------------9 innings
                                Second game----------10 innings

                                Keep in mind in both these years those double headers were late in the season.
                                Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 01-14-2006, 06:30 AM.

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