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My top 100 players (including pitchers)

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Rickey_Henderson
    Greatest Position Players of All-Time


    1) Babe Ruth

    2) Honus Wagner

    3) Ty Cobb

    4) Mickey Mantle

    5) Willie Mays

    6) Ted Williams

    7) Lou Gehrig

    8) Hank Aaron

    9) Stan Musial

    10) Tris Speaker

    11) Eddie Collins

    12) Alex Rodriguez

    13a) Joe DiMaggio

    13b) Rogers Hornsby

    14) Joe Morgan

    15) Rickey Henderson

    16) Nap Lajoie

    17a) Jimmie Foxx

    17b) Mel Ott

    19) Frank Robinson
    I agree Ruth at #1. But Chris ain't gonna like A-Rod over Morgan.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Wee Willie
      It does matter where you place them. That's what many of threads in this section are all about - debating who was greater than whom. If you're giving an opinion, you should 1)expect to get opinions in return, and 2)be prepared to defend your opinion.

      The problem with AlecBoy is NOT that he has a lot of opinions that are outside the mainstream. It's that he 1)doesn't back up his opinions with any sort of analysis of the facts, and 2)he runs away when someone asks him to elaborate or provide detail. I'm sure he has the intelligence to do this - but does he have the maturity? Maybe he will one of these days...
      I'm not quite sure if I disagree with you here. It doesn't matter where you place certain players as a matter of a factual ranking of them, because there is no such thing. Hornsby over Morgan, for example, is not a fact, it is an opinion.
      But the purpose of these rankings is to open up discussion, and if you venture into that, you should be prepared to defend your logic. If that was your point, I agree completely.
      "Any pitcher who throws at a batter and deliberately tries to hit him is a communist."

      - Alvin Dark

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Minstrel
        I'm not sure what your point is. No one said it his list was illegal and that jail time was warranted. Of course he has a right to place people where he wants. He posted his list on a discussion forum and solicited comments. He's getting comments, mostly critical. He posted his opinion, everyone else is posting their opinions.
        I think it's fine to post criticism of his list. But notice Rickey's comment that the list is "insane". Admittedly, that came after my post. But I think criticism should be more about forcing him to defend the logic of his list, which several people have done, rather than simply disagreeing with it, which is boring.
        "Any pitcher who throws at a batter and deliberately tries to hit him is a communist."

        - Alvin Dark

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by AstrosFan
          I think it's fine to post criticism of his list. But notice Rickey's comment that the list is "insane". Admittedly, that came after my post. But I think criticism should be more about forcing him to defend the logic of his list, which several people have done, rather than simply disagreeing with it, which is boring.
          I agree. Someone's opinion should not be labeled as "insane" or "rediculous". You may disagree with it and post your reasons for doing so. By the same token, the individual who posted the statement that seems to be in the minority should defend their position.

          My objection is that people have taken the time to lay out good arguments as to why they disagree with a position, such as refuting the ranking that had Kaline ahead of Speaker (since reversed), Gehrig, Hornsby, Teddy Ballgame, Mickey Mantle, etc. But despite taking the time to detail a cogent rationale, the response is often a one-liner that doesn't address the issue at all, such as "Kaline had more hits", or "Kaline played longer", or "Kaline had more rbis". It is as if this trumps all the previous arguments that clearly laid out one's position, or the irrelevant one-liner makes it seem as if the responder didn't even read the entire post because they are ignoring 99% of it.

          I came to Fever because there are very knowledgeable posters here and I have learned quite a bit. Changed my opinions on a number of players based on the detailed historical knowledgeable that has been presented. These irrelevant one-liners seem particularly aggravating under those conditions. If (hopefully) newbies come to this forum to experience and learn from the depth of knowledge here, how long do you think they'd stay if they saw a statement (which HASN'T actually been posted thankfully ) that said "Campaneris was a better player than Lou Gehrig". Detailed posts followed showing numerous methodologies that have Gehrig as the far superior player, and the original poster responded with "Campaneris was faster." Do you think those folks would stick around and join Fever?

          Comment


          • #80
            Well, Campaneris was faster and played a harder position.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by AlecBoy006
              Well, Campaneris was faster and played a harder position.
              Would you care to put forth a detailed rationale based on facts and NOT another one liner?

              Comment


              • #82
                Hey. I don't think Campaneris is anywhere near Gehrig. But it is factual, isn't it? First Base is the least important position on the field. Shortstop and Catcher are neck and neck for the hardest. Bert stole 649 bases. 7 times in 19 seasons it was over 50. Gehrig stole 102 bases. Gehrig has more triples. But only 16. Is that good enough for you? Or do I have to stand on my hands?

                Comment


                • #83
                  Actually, I changed my mind. Here are my ten greatest players

                  1) Koufax
                  2) Hodges
                  3) Snider
                  4) Campanella
                  5) Babe Herman
                  6) Jackie Robinson
                  7) Pee Wee Reese
                  8) Clem labine
                  9) Jim Gilliam
                  10) Adrian Beltre

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by AlecBoy006
                    Actually, I changed my mind. Here are my ten greatest players

                    1) Koufax
                    2) Hodges
                    3) Snider
                    4) Campanella
                    5) Babe Herman
                    6) Jackie Robinson
                    7) Pee Wee Reese
                    8) Clem labine
                    9) Jim Gilliam
                    10) Adrian Beltre
                    Still dodging the truth?
                    Or in la-la land?
                    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by AlecBoy006
                      Hey. I don't think Campaneris is anywhere near Gehrig. But it is factual, isn't it? First Base is the least important position on the field. Shortstop and Catcher are neck and neck for the hardest. Bert stole 649 bases. 7 times in 19 seasons it was over 50. Gehrig stole 102 bases. Gehrig has more triples. But only 16. Is that good enough for you? Or do I have to stand on my hands?
                      Yes Alec, those are facts. Saying that Campaneris was also hit by a pitch 19 more times than Gehrig is also a fact. But they don't make a case. Nor is it in and of itself a pursuasive argument. But I am glad that you don't actually have Campaneris over Gehrig - almost got worried for a moment.

                      The point, which I am not sure you are grasping, is that one or two facts don't make an argument. In the case of Kaline versus Mantle, your argument that Kaline was greater was based on a) Kaline had a longer career and b) Mantle won an MVP in 1962 that you don't believe he earned. The longer career is a fact, the MVP award is your opinion. Regardless, I think you see the flaw in basing rankings based on MVP awards. Despite Kaline's longer career, how does that offset the OBP advantage Mantle owns, in both peak and career? Or the slugging percentage advantage Mantle owns, peak and career? Mantle's career OPS+ is 38 points higher. Or Mantle's career WARP-3 of 155.1 compared to Kaline's 129.9. Offensively, there is a world of difference between Mantle and Kaline, that Kaline's longer career doesn't come close to matching. Mantle's offensive winning percentage of .815 dwarfs Kaline's .691.

                      Defensively, Kaline was a tremendous RF winning 10 gold gloves, compared to one for Mantle. Obviously a GG is just another award like an MVP and I am glad that you no longer base your rankings solely on that, but the fact is that defensive stats show Kaline to be a top notch RF. So how much more value does that add over a good CF like Mantle? Evidently not a lot. Despite the longer career, Kaline has 56.4 defensive WS compared to Mantle's 55.1. That's a whole 1.3 difference. Using defensive WS per 1000 innings, that comes to 3.15 for Mantle and 2.70 for Kaline.

                      So if you put it all together, Mantle finished his shorter career with 565 total WS, including both offense and defense. Even though Kaline played over 400 more games than Mantle, he finished with 443.

                      I don't know if you are a proponent of WS or not. I favor it over Total Player Rating, but even using TPR, Mantle finished his "shorter" career with a total of76.1 while Kaline's "longer" career totaled 44.6.

                      If you want to persuade people, you should lay out a basis for your statement. Don't just throw out a one liner like "Kaline had 592 more hits" and hope that the other posters won't realize that Mantle was far more adept at getting on base than Kaline because the vast majority of posters won't be fooled by those one liners.

                      And no need to stand on your hands unless you actually type more cogent positions that way....

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by AlecBoy006
                        Hey. I don't think Campaneris is anywhere near Gehrig. But it is factual, isn't it?
                        Just because you list one or two facts doesn't mean you've made a good attempt to do any analysis or make a good argument.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by RuthMayBond
                          Still dodging the truth?
                          Or in la-la land?

                          You're just upset no Indian player is in the top ten......


                          Koufax is the greatest player of all time. look at his clutchness.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Wee Willie
                            Just because you list one or two facts doesn't mean you've made a good attempt to do any analysis or make a good argument.

                            Tell me how Gehrig was faster. Just because he had more triples. Campaneris still had more stolen bases (and a lot I might add) Advantage: Campaneris. Campaneris played at SS. Gehrig at first base. All you have to to do at first stand there. Guard the man if there is on. Catch balls. SS: you have to make insane dives. You have to leap in the air to prevent bloopers, If there is a ground ball away from you, you have to run over and make a throw to first. Campaneris did play a harder position. He stole more bases. 649 is alot. And stole plenty more than Gehrig. And even if he was hit by a pitch 19 more times than Gehrig, that still set him up for bases stolen. True, Campaneris didn't have a great batting average. But he was a good singles hitter.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by AlecBoy006
                              You're just upset no Indian player is in the top ten......


                              Koufax is the greatest player of all time. look at his clutchness.
                              Originally posted by BoSox Rule
                              Forget to sign out and sign in as dodgerfan66 or is this supposed to be funny?

                              Obligatory 10 characters....

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by AlecBoy006
                                You're just upset no Indian player is in the top ten......
                                Speaker whips everyone on your list

                                <Koufax is the greatest player of all time. look at his clutchness.>

                                Especially 1955-1960. Oh wait, that didn't happen. Where's Pepper Martin on your list
                                Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                                Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                                Comment

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