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  • #16
    Originally posted by pretorius
    Not pretend they never happened just not credit them as a skill trait as if Harmon Killebrew hit them.
    Except that I never said Yaz was a consistent 40 HR hitter

    <Yaz was not a 40 Home Run slugger. A full 23 year career and he only broke the 30 HR plateau 3 times and only cracked 20 8 times in all. 4 of those times just barely.>

    You're not worried about just barely MISSING a milestone, below

    <If a man hits this 19, 22, 14, 16, 17, 19, 19, 44, 13, 17, 20,18 for his Home Run totals over a 12 year career what kind of power did he have?
    Kaline broke the 20 Home Run plateau more times then Yaz did.>

    A very good cutoff number for getting your desired results

    <Power is Home Runs and slugging as I see it>

    Wha..?

    <I think Kaline has a clear lead or is at the very least even on every concievable facet of the game when compared to Yaz.>

    See, now we're not getting the crazy "blowout" talk
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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    • #17
      I never said anything about Yaz's 40 Home Run seasons either from what I remeber except that they were flukes. I stand by the fact that in his special case lightening struck 3 times. If his seasonal totals looked like this 17, 29, 34, 32, 27, 36, 28, 31, 44, 31, 26, 42, 37 etc (Like Reggie Jackson's)

      I would say he had some peak home run seasons. Some high but certainly normal home run peaks.

      But a career littered with sub 20 Home Run seasons marked out of nowhere with 3 fluke 40 Home Run seasons. I am sorry but I think he is the weakest power hitter with over 400 Home Runs and weaker then most with totals in between 250-399.

      "You're not worried about just barely MISSING a milestone, below"

      No he barely made a milestone when he hit 20, 21, 21 and 23. I noted it too show just how large/huge of an anomalie those 3 40 home run seasons are. It isn't as if he had 27,28,28, 29 as his seasons cracking 20 and missing 30. I mean he barely had enough power to break 20. Look at his statline he has like a dozen or so full seasons where he does not even crack 20.

      "A very good cutoff number for getting your desired results"

      It's a very good cut-off number because it's a logical cut-off number and a known milestone. Why are we acting like 20 is an arbitrary number?

      Okay how about 18 HR's?

      Yaz did it 10 times. Kaline 11.

      Nothing changed. 20 is the logical and appropriate number/milestone.

      "See, now we're not getting the crazy "blowout" talk"

      Blow-out wasn't the appropriate title maybe but decisive and clearly would do it for me.

      I think Kaline was a better fielder, runner, AVG hitter and equal (tilting towards better) as a power hitter.

      Basically, Kaline was better or equal to Yaz in every concievable way.
      "If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking"

      Gen. Patton

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      • #18
        Well, Yaz is leading in the poll 13-6, and I have to agree with the concensus.

        Yaz was just as good as Kaline, with a better peak, and played longer. 3000+ hits is amazing, but 3400+ is more so. And as to his "fluke" seasons, I mean what, are you going to say that the HR's don't count because the rest of the time he doesn't hit that many HR's? I'd rather a guy "fluke" his way to 40+ HR's, than to consistently never hit 30.
        Last edited by Edgartohof; 01-17-2006, 02:10 PM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by ElHalo
          Kaline comes out waaaaaay ahead in my view. One, there's the fact that he's arguably the best defensive corner outfielder of all time. Two, there's the fact that he was actually a legitimately great player, unlike Yaz, who was a legitimately pretty good player who had a fluky Brady Anderson couple of seasons where he played over his head. Plus, Yaz didn't have a battery named after him. Gotta go with Kaline.

          With all due respect, and I don't mean this as a remonstrance, can't stand when people flip out over opinions and such.. i realize personal observation only means so much, but to compare yaz to brady anderson is kinda insulting to yaz. not that anderson was awful, but yaz is generally regarded as a top 10 lf.

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          • #20
            even in years when yaz didn't hit 20, he was still by the standards of the time often hitting a pretty decent amount of homers, for instance, in the 70's guys could have only 25 homers and be , say 4th in the league. dick allen led with only 32 once. and i'm not sure if kaline was really faster, yaz was no speed demon but could steal bases when he was younger.

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            • #21
              Kaline.
              Yaz had 3 outstanding years that were better than Al's best. But Kaline was remarably consistent. Yaz was not. I prefer to know what someone is going to produce and produce on a regular basis. Kaline did that and Yaz did not.

              Yaz was not a good base runner. He wasn't as good as HE thought he was. Yaz got gunned down more than a few times. Kaline, OTOH, was known as good smart base runner.

              Yes, Yax was good LF'er and played the Green Monster extremely well. I suspect he got a fair share of assists courtesy of that wall from runners trying to make it two. Don't forget that Fenway's LF did exactly require a long accurate throw either. I'd really like to see Yaz' Home'Road assist splits if possible. I'd be willing to bet they strongly favor Fenway.
              Kaline was a solid but unspactacular outfielder. He had a strong arm accurate arm.

              Yankees Fan Since 1957

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              • #22
                Originally posted by RuthMayBond
                My bad, shouldn't'a dunnit, but will you stop proclaiming "facts" that ain't necessarily so?
                Sorry; my internet experience grew up on the old UseNet newsgroups where nettiquette was key, and I was taught from an early age that there are only two things in online discussions that just aren't allowed... one is changing around people's quotes, the other is invoking Godwin's Law (i.e., comparing someone to Hitler).

                As far as the other goes... I view Kaline as a top 40 all time guy. I don't really view Yaz as a top 80 all time guy. So they're not really close, to me.
                "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

                Sean McAdam, ESPN.com

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                • #23
                  Kaline was a more efficient base runner SB wise. He hit alot more triples then Yaz did.

                  Kaline was even in the top 10 for stolen bases 5 times. Yaz never was in the top 10.

                  Granted that people weren't swiping bases in the 50's really so Kaline's 5 top 10 finishes aren't really impressive.

                  I would still say that Kaline hold's a clear base-running edge.
                  "If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking"

                  Gen. Patton

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by ElHalo
                    Sorry; my internet experience grew up on the old UseNet newsgroups where nettiquette was key, and I was taught from an early age that there are only two things in online discussions that just aren't allowed... one is changing around people's quotes, the other is invoking Godwin's Law (i.e., comparing someone to Hitler).
                    You weren't taught that saying "If something didn't happen in New York it isn't important" isn't bad etiquette?

                    <As far as the other goes... I view Kaline as a top 40 all time guy.>

                    A corner OF with a 134 OPS+ and an excessive home advantage at his home park?
                    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by pretorius
                      Kaline was a more efficient base runner SB wise. He hit alot more triples then Yaz did.
                      OK, but if we're going to dock Yaz because he got assists because of a short field, then he shouldn't be docked on triples because they wouldn't roll as far
                      Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                      Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        It's been an interesting poll so far, and I've learned a lot of things. Never saw Kaline play, but I did catch Yastremski toward the end of his career, he had good though not great years in '77 and '79, but frankly hurt the club from 80-83 by sticking around too long. Both guys are considered to be legends/icons by fans of their respective clubs for playing a long time with 1 team, both are HOF'ers, and I think few people would argue with either guy's selection. Yaz and Kaline are similar in that they hold a place as not the best Red Sox or Tiger ever, but as a strong and beloved symbol of their franchises. Got a couple of questions/ concerns..

                        1. Was Kaline ever considered at any point to be the best all-around player in the league, if not all of baseball? Because in the late 60's and start of the 70's, some people, rightly or wrongly, considered Yaz as such. Maybe because Yaz had such a great peak, it elevated him in the eyes of the general public: whereas Kaline, outside of Detroit, was always highly respected, but still flew under the radar a little bit, possibly because he never had the monster seasons that Yaz had?

                        2. Was Kaline, toward the end, criticized for hanging around too long and thwarting the progress of the minor leaguers in his organization like Yaz was? Was Kaline's decline as steep as Yaz's was at the end?
                        Last edited by oscargamblesfro; 01-18-2006, 08:21 AM.

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                        • #27
                          I'll take Kaline

                          Better BA, Slg Pct., better fielder.

                          Plus he has the almighty ring that eluded Mr. Yastrzemski.
                          Chairman Emeritus of the r/baseballHOF

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by EricGotMunsoned
                            I'll take Kaline

                            Better BA, Slg Pct., better fielder.

                            Plus he has the almighty ring that eluded Mr. Yastrzemski.
                            Could he really help playing on a team that had a curse?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I'm a lifelong Tiger fan, so I'm prejudiced. I'll go with Kaline. Every time he threw the baseball, half of Detroit drooled.

                              I'll never forget one game where Kaline's greatness didn't show up in the box score, but was on display for all to see. It was late in the game, if I remember correctly, with the tying run at third and less than two out.

                              There was a flyout to medium-deep right field -- deep enough for the runner to score in most cases. But Kaline threw an absolute bullet home, one bounce, right on the money. Catcher Bill Freehan didn't have to move his mitt. The runner scampered back to third base, and the knowledgeable Detroit fans gave Mr. Kaline a standing O.

                              Yaz was great, but I'll go with Kaline.
                              "Hey Mr. McGraw! Can I pitch to-day?"

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by oscargamblesfro
                                It's been an interesting poll so far, and I've learned a lot of things. Never saw Kaline play, but I did catch Yastremski toward the end of his career, he had good though not great years in '77 and '79, but frankly hurt the club from 80-83 by sticking around too long. Both guys are considered to be legends/icons by fans of their respective clubs for playing a long time with 1 team, both are HOF'ers, and I think few people would argue with either guy's selection. Yaz and Kaline are similar in that they hold a place as not the best Red Sox or Tiger ever, but as a strong and beloved symbol of their franchises. Got a couple of questions/ concerns..

                                1. Was Kaline ever considered at any point to be the best all-around player in the league, if not all of baseball? Because in the late 60's and start of the 70's, some people, rightly or wrongly, considered Yaz as such. Maybe because Yaz had such a great peak, it elevated him in the eyes of the general public: whereas Kaline, outside of Detroit, was always highly respected, but still flew under the radar a little bit, possibly because he never had the monster seasons that Yaz had?

                                2. Was Kaline, toward the end, criticized for hanging around too long and thwarting the progress of the minor leaguers in his organization like Yaz was? Was Kaline's decline as steep as Yaz's was at the end?
                                1]I can't remember Kaline ever being considered the best player in the AL. Mantle was, without a doubt, the best till 65. And Maris may have gotten some support in consecutive MVP seasons of 60 & 61. The NL really had quite a few players who were better than Kaline during the peak of his career, say from his great rookie season till mid-60's. I'll toss out Mays, Aaron, Frank Robinson, Mathews, Cepeda, Clemente, Boyer, Banks, Snider [til the LA move] and Tommy Davis [early 60's]
                                2]not sure about this part, looking at the numbers, they still weren't too bad at the plate, no doubt their careers were extended by being a DH. They were both total pros, I would think their presence on a roster would benefit younger players.

                                Yaz had much more recognition than Kaline during their careers, after his monster MVP season in 67. But as stated earlier, both were similar players who both had long careers and a lot of good, but not neccesarily great seasons. Both are worthy HOFers.
                                It Might Be? It Could Be?? It Is!

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