Wagner/Mays: Who Do You Rank Higher as Historical Players?

[westsidegrounds]

If I were putting together a team from scratch, and I had to pick one of these two to build my team around, w/o knowing what other players would be available later .......


I'd toss a coin.

[Bill Burgess]

If I were putting together a team from scratch, and I had to pick one of these two to build my team around, w/o knowing what other players would be available later .......


I'd toss a coin.

Ha ha ha. Let me approach this another way. For a long time, I have tried to get all of our best minds on 1 single poll. Look at the roster. Almost all of our best. Except one! If you don't flip a coin and participate, we will never have a poll where almost all of our best have voted.

Won't you flip a coin? Remember. You are not determining who was better. You are just expressing an opinion. This is supposed to be fun? Can I persuade you to join the festivities? My powers of persuasion have slipped over the years.

[westsidegrounds]

The poll results, as of the time of this post, reflect my views so closely that I don't think they can be improved upon.

[CandlestickBum]

The poll results, as of the time of this post, reflect my views so closely that I don't think they can be improved upon.

You two are cracking me up.

It is a wonderful thing that 170 people can be split exactly down the middle on this.

Westside, did you consider armstrength as a tie breaker? Which one has a legendary arm again? I'm forgetting...................

[CTaka]

I had already voted in this poll (and I voted for Honus even though Willie was the best that I've ever seen), but using the "GM needs to make a decision" criteria, I'd stick with Honus. There is a big difference between Wagner and his competitors. If I couldn't land Willie but had to "settle" for some guy named Cobb, Mantle, or Speaker, I think I'd still find a way to be satisfied with my pick.

[Bill Burgess]

Has everyone voted on this poll who wanted to?

[brett]

Has everyone voted on this poll who wanted to?

I voted long enough ago that I changed my mind a year and a half ago.

[brett]

I think he could have ended up at the #2 spot, so yes that would put him in the conversation, even if the conversation is a short one. But I don't think he had much of a chance of claiming the #1 spot.

In my opinion, A-Rod at shortstop could have surpassed Wagner IF he would have gone on to have all time great longevity, 3000+ games.

[csh19792001]

In my opinion, A-Rod at shortstop could have surpassed Wagner IF he would have gone on to have all time great longevity, 3000+ games.

And if he hadn't been taking steroids for most of those years, too?

[dominik]

I will go with mays. Wagner of course had a better peak(esp. considering his position but also hitting alone) but wagners last years were not so great while mays was very consistent. So I take him on longevity.

And no way that Arod would have surpassed him. I know the legend says that jeter stole his spot, but Today Arod is terrible at third base (steroid hulks normally don't play good defense). there is no indication that he could play a much more demanding position till his mid 30s they would have needed to move him soon anyway. No player that is not good at 3B will play good SS defense. I think a combination of age and steroid induced body changes made his fielding decline.

And then there is honus wagners much better hitting

5 year peak

Wagner
182 OPS+ 349 .417 .503
Arod
153 OPS+ 303 .401 .573

It's not even close on peak

[sandy1]

Ernie Banks is a better comp for ARod than Wagner is...Banks played 8 years at shortstop and roughly 1125 games from 1954- 1961. He had a 138 ops +.
Arod - 8 years at SS and 1272 games at 147 ops+.

Before Banks got beaned he was one of the best SS in the history of baseball. He had 55 WAR in 8 years. That is a great peak for any player at any postion.

[Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan]

Looks like Honus is slowly breaking away in the poll. It's a really tough call.

[Bill Burgess]

I strongly believe that the close poll between Honus and Willie is both appropriate, respectful and deep-seated in its baseball wisdom.

I think that if Willie hit in Honus' time, he'd be Honus Wagner. If Honus hit in Willie's time, he'd be Willie Mays. I think they are extremely comparable as hitters. I give the nod to Honus on the basis of his better defense. Better glove, agility and reflexes allowed him to hold down a much tougher defensive position. And on that basis, I award the prize to Hans. Held Willie to a draw in the batter's box, forged ahead on defense. It's the glove that tips the balance for me.

[dominik]

yeah I think it's extremely close. Both were great hitters and excellent fielders(don't know about wagner though but I asume since he was a SS) Willie was an ATG in CF.

-offense: better peak for wagner but willie more consistent
-defense: Willie was maybe the best CF but wagner is a SS
-running: I go with mays he was really fast

[Bill Burgess]

Bumping this up so the newcomers can vote on it.