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Wynn in the Hall?

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  • #76
    I do feel I hsould point out that Wynn wasn't actually much of a defensive CFer...both BP and PCA agree he was a little below average for his career...

    But his offensive reputation is not being fairly painted...aside from not hitting for contact, he was a very well rounded offensive player (ran well and smartly, hit for gap and HR power, drew walks almost as often as he struck out)

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    • #77
      Originally posted by leecemark
      --Chris, I think you know that I'm mostly in agreement with you that BA is overrated and you can be a great player with an unspectacular one. However, there is no way to spin a .207 BA into a good season. When you go to such extremes you make it really hard for anybody to follow you.
      Exactly. And I'm also aware that you can be a great player with an unspectacular batting average- and not just a great player...you can still be an alltime great, without a great (or even very good) batting average. Mike Schmidt, Eddie Mathews, Willie McCovey, and many others were alltime greats with very uninspiring averages. Had Mark McGwire not (obviously) used steroids, I'd certainly consider him an alltime great and arguably the greatest HR hitter ever.

      In any case....Mark, it's good to see you haven't completely lost your bearings and forgotten baseball for sabermetrics, as several here obviously have (or maybe sabermetrics always came way before the game and its history..?). Being around here as much as you are, I would think the temptation would be almost unavoidable to take that ultra lazy route and just defer to some formula for the absoulte truth about every baseball player and as the automatic fallback answer in every debate.

      And finally:

      Yes, .207 in a full season (especially for a supposedly world class player) is a complete embarrassment!!! As was the season that he hit .203 (1971). Especially in light of the fact that the average National League outfielder hit .275 the year Wynn hit .207 and .276 the year he hit .203.

      Sorry, Chris, most people here (me inclusive) aren't all going to submit a lifetime of extant baseball knowledge and experience to become sabermetric automatons. That's the reason why Wynn got murdered in the other poll against Ken Griffey, Jr., and why the number of people who voted "no" continues to increase here as the debate wears on, your argument weakens, and your points get more desperate and reaching.

      The complete submission to sabermetrics is also the main reason why you're in the extreme minority in most of your most committed opinions, including the majority of the those surveyed in "The Best of Chris 538280".

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      • #78
        Originally posted by 538280
        . YOU CAN BE A GOOD, EVEN A GREAT, PLAYER WITH A LOW BATTING AVERAGE! .
        You can also be a great player with a low amount of walks.
        "I was pitching one day when my glasses clouded up on me. I took them off to polish them. When I looked up to the plate, I saw Jimmie Foxx. The sight of him terrified me so much that I haven't been able to wear glasses since." - Left Gomez

        "(Lou) Gehrig never learned that a ballplayer couldn't be good every day." - Hank Gowdy

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        • #79
          Value is value csh########

          I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't believe I'm WAY off in my evaluation of the value of Wynn's 1971 and 1976 seasons...neither of which were *GREAT* but neither of which were "absolute embarrassments" either. Everyone needs to get some perspective. Yes...you'd obviously like to see better batting averages from Wynn than .203 and .207, but no...he wasn't worthless in those seasons...in fact he remained among the top 5% of the NL when he hit .203...which says a lot about him as a player.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by SABR Matt
            in fact he remained among the top 5% of the NL when he hit .203...which says a lot about him as a player.
            I'm hoping you just mistyped the .203, and meant to put .207. Because as bad as Wynn's '76 campaign with his .207 BA, his '71 season with his .203 BA is WAY worse

            1971:

            .203/.302/.295
            123 games
            82 hits
            16 doubles
            7 HR's

            You are still wrong about his '76 campaign as well, but if you really were talking about 1971, then I don't know what to think.

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            • #81
              No...I meant '76...(.207). His .203 year was genuinely bad...sorry.

              His .207 year, by every existing metric still places him in the top 5% of the 1976 NL

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              • #82
                Originally posted by csh19792001
                And finally:

                Yes, .207 in a full season (especially for a supposedly world class player) is a complete embarrassment!!! As was the season that he hit .203 (1971). Especially in light of the fact that the average National League outfielder hit .275 the year Wynn hit .207 and .276 the year he hit .203.
                His 1971 season when he hit .203 was bad, certainly. But, do you know why that season was so bad? He was playing hurt the whole year, and really could have easily taken the whole year off. He was stabbed by his wife before the season and didn't recover for the season. I'm not one to give injury credit to players, but I think it's wrong to count '71 against Wynn, especially since he could have just sat out the whole season if he wanted. Though the year was horrible he still did have value. He wasn't below replacement level. Also, he did rebound to become a very good player in the next few years.

                Sorry, Chris, most people here (me inclusive) aren't all going to submit a lifetime of extant baseball knowledge and experience to become sabermetric automatons. That's the reason why Wynn got murdered in the other poll against Ken Griffey, Jr., and why the number of people who voted "no" continues to increase here as the debate wears on, your argument weakens, and your points get more desperate and reaching.
                Are you calling me a "sabermetric automaton"? I'm not giving in all baseball knowledge to sabermetrics. I'm simply stating that Wynn was indeed a good player in 1976 despite batting .207. He did everything else well besides contact hitting.

                The complete submission to sabermetrics is also the main reason why you're in the extreme minority in most of your most committed opinions, including the majority of the those surveyed in "The Best of Chris 538280".
                Now, do you honestly believe I have a "complete submission to sabermetrics"?
                Last edited by 538280; 01-29-2006, 07:16 PM.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Myankee4life
                  You can also be a great player with a low amount of walks.
                  You can. I'm not disputing that. Never have. The only difference is that great players who don't walk much (Clemente, Ichiro, Sisler) tend to be overrated, while great players with low battting averages tend to be underrated.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by 538280
                    Though the year was horrible he still did have value. He wasn't below replacement level.
                    An outfielder who hits .200 with a lousy OPS and 10 steals absolutely is below replacement level.
                    "Hall of Famer Whitey Ford now on the field... pleading with the crowd for, for some kind of sanity!"

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                    • #85
                      No actually...he's not iPod...we can measure replacement level and he was slightly above it. VERY slightly (to the tune of about 1 offensive win), but he was above it.

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