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Best Position Players of All Time - #24

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  • #16
    1.Rickey Henderson-greatest leadoff man ever, very underrated, as leadoff men often are
    2.Pop Lloyd-2nd best SS, 3rd greatest Negro Leaguer
    3.Arky Vaughan-very underrated, 3rd best SS
    4.Frank Thomas-3rd best hitter ever.
    5.Christobal Torriente-one of the most complete players ever, all time great glove and very good bat as well. DiMaggio light.
    6.Eddie Mathews-first really great hitting 3B
    7.Jeff Bagwell-Great hitter and fielder from 1B. He just wasn't as good a hitter as Thomas
    8.Alex Rodriguez-looks like he'll be the best player of the 2000s, but Pujols poses a threat
    9.Reggie Jackson-my favorite player, I think he's underrated here at BBF. Best AL player of the 1970s.
    10.Jackie Robinson-Joe Morgan for half as long.

    Next up:
    11.George Brett
    12.Turkey Stearnes
    13Pete Rose
    14Yogi Berra
    15Tony Gwynn
    16Tim Raines
    17Ron Santo
    18.Willie McCovey
    19.Robin Yount
    20.Charlie Gehringer

    Comment


    • #17
      1- Rickey Henderson-best leadoff hitter ever, except maybe for #3 below
      2- Alex Rodriguez-moving up yearly
      3- Billy Hamilton (career .455 OBP, 912 SB, 1690 R in only 1591 games!)
      4- Ed Delahanty
      5- Dan Brouthers
      6-Eddie Mathews
      7-Al Simmons
      8-Pop Lloyd
      9-Cap Anson
      10-Arky Vaughan

      Amazing that the anti-Henderson people manage to continue to leave him off ballots, so that most people are seeing their #2 or #3 guy elected every round because they hold no grudges and vote for everyone who deserves it.

      Comment


      • #18
        1.E.Mathews
        2.A.Rodriguez
        3.R.Henderson
        4.Brett
        5.Ripken
        6.Anson
        7.Berra
        8.Lloyd
        9.Yastrzemski
        10.Gehringer
        Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

        Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

        Comment


        • #19
          1. Rickey Henderson
          2. Alex Rodriguez
          3. Roberto Clemente
          4. Pete Rose
          5. George Sisler
          6. Pop Lloyd
          7. Joe Jackson
          8. Hank Greenberg
          9. Ernie Banks
          10. Yogi Berra

          11. Al Simmons
          12. Jackie Robinson
          13. Charley Gehringer
          14. Buck Leonard
          15. Reggie Jackson
          16. Tony Gwynn
          17. Roy Campanella
          18. Harry Heilmann
          19. George Brett
          20. Willie McCovey
          Yankees '09

          Arod, CC, AJ, DJ and Tex

          Comment


          • #20
            1 Pop Lloyd
            2 Yogi Berra
            3 George Brett
            4 Jackie Robinson
            5 Alex Rodriguez
            6 Cap Anson
            7 Biz Mackay
            8 Dan Brouthers
            9 Rickey Henderson
            10 Tony Gwynn

            Comment


            • #21
              Form Chart:

              Catchers:

              Pre-1910: Jack Clements, "Deacon" Jim McGuire, Red Charlie Dooin, Buck Ewing, Mike "King" Kelly, Charlie Bennett, Charles "Pop" Snyder, Marty Bergen, Bill Bergen, Johnny Kling, Roger Bresnahan, Chief Zimmer, Duke Farrell, John Warner, Wilbert Robinson, Doc Bushong,
              Moses Fleetwood Walker.

              1910-60: Hank Severeid, Bob O'Farrell, Bill Killefer, Ray Schalk, Wally Schang, Johnny Bassler, Walker Cooper, Sherman Lollar, Jim Hegan, Jimmy Archer, Muddy Ruel, Steve O'Neil, Billy Sullivan, Mickey Cochrane, Bill Dickey, Gabby Hartnett, Al Lopez, Ernie Lombardi, Walker Cooper, Rick Ferrell, Yogi Berra, Roy Campanella, Del Crandall, Smokey Burgess.

              1960-present: Ted Simmons, Lance Parrish, Jim Sundberg, Jerry Grote, Johnny Bench, Gary Carter, Carlton Fisk, Thurman Munson, Mike Piazza, Ivan "Pudge" Rodriguez, Bill Freehan, Benito Santiago, Charles Johnson, Bob Boone

              Negro Leagues:
              Josh Gibson (1929-1946)
              Louis "Santop" Loftin (1909-26)
              Bruce Petway (1906-25);
              Frank Duncan (1920-48)
              Larry Brown (1919-49)
              James Raleigh "Biz" Mackey (1920-47, '50)

              1B -

              Pre-1900: Joe Start, Roger Connor, Charles Comiskey, Wes Fisler, Dan Brouthers, Jake Beckley, Fred Tenney, Ed Konetchy, Jake Daubert, Adrian "Cap" Anson, Dave Orr, Henry Larkin, Cal McVey

              Frank Chance, Stuffy McInnis, Jim Bottomley, Jack Fournier, Lu Blue, Hal Chase, George Sisler, Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, Hank Greenberg, Bill Terry, Johnny Mize, Ted Kluszewski, Gil Hodges, Vic Power, Orlando Cepeda, Willie McCovey, Wes Parker, Steve Garvey, Cecil Cooper, Cecil Fielder, Kent Hrbek, Tony Perez, Keith Hernandez, Eddie Murray, Don Mattingly, Will Clark, Mark McGwire, Jeff Bagwell, Frank Thomas, Rafael Palmeiro, Carlos Delgado, Jason Giambi, JT Snow, Albert Pujols; Negro Leagues: Buck Leonard, Ben Taylor.

              2B

              Pre-1900: Ross Barnes, Jack Burdock, Fred Pfeffer, Cupid Childs, Bid McPhee, Jimmy Williams, Fred Dunlap, Hardy Richardson, Sol White, Frank Grant, Bud Fowler, Gene DeMontreville.

              Larry Doyle, Bobby Lowe, Nap Lajoie, Eddie Collins, Rogers Hornsby, George Cutshaw, Charlie Gehringer, Frankie Frisch, Jackie Robinson, Rod Carew, Joe Morgan, Nellie Fox, Bobby Grich, Bill Mazeroski, Red Schoendiest, Ryne Sandberg, Robbie Alomar, Craig Biggio, Alfonso Soriano; Negro Leagues: Elwood "Bingo" DeMoss

              SS

              Pre-1900: George Wright, Ed McKean, John Montgomery Ward, Jack Glasscock, Herman Long, Hughie Jennings, George Davis, Bill Dahlen, Tommy Corcoran, Freddie Parent, Dickey Pearce

              Honus Wagner, Joe Tinker, Bobby Wallace, George McBride, Roger Peckinpaugh, Everett Scott, Joe Sewell, Luke Appling, Art Fletcher, Bill Dahlen, Donie Bush, Rabbit Maranville, Glenn Wright, Arky Vaughn, Lou Boudreau, Joe Cronin, Marty Marion, Pee Wee Reese, Phil Rizzuto, Luis Aparicio, Ernie Banks, Maury Wills, Robin Yount, Cal Ripken, Alan Trammell, Dave Concepcion, Barry Larkin, Omar Vizquel, Derek Jeter, Alexander Rodriguez; Negro Leagues: John "Pop" Lloyd, John Beckwith, Willie Wells.

              3B:

              Pre-1900:
              Ezra Sutton, Levi Meyerle, Bob Ferguson, Arlie Latham, Ned Williamson, John McGraw, Jimmie Collins, Bill Nash, Jim Davis, Lave Cross, Denny Lyons, Deacon White, Jerry Denny, Bill Joyce, Levi Meyerle

              Harry Steinfelft, Tommy Leach, Frank Baker, Bill Bradley, Willie Kamm, Ossie Bluege, Pie Traynor, Billy Cox, Eddie Mathews, Ken Boyer, Clete Boyer, Ron Santo, Brooks Robinson, Mike Schmidt, George Brett, Wade Boggs, Bill Madlock, Paul Molitor, Scott Rolen;

              Negro Leagues: Judy Johnson, Ray Dandridge, Oliver Marcell

              LF

              Pre-1900: Harry Stovey, Ed Delahanty, Jesse Burkett, Jim O'Rourke, Tip O'Neill, Abner Dalrymple

              Sherry Magee, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Barry Bonds, Ricky Henderson, Carl Yasztrzemski, Joe Jackson, Al Simmons, Billy Williams, Ralph Kiner, Fred Clarke, Zack Wheat, Jimmy Sheckard, Duffy Lewis, Joe "Ducky" Medwick, Willie Stargell, Manny Ramirez.
              --------------------------------------------------------------------------
              CF:

              Pre-1900: Jimmie McAleer, Bill Lange, Jimmy Ryan, George Gore, Harry Wright, Paul Hines, Lip Pike, Tom Brown, George Van Haltren, Dummy Hoy, Billy Hamilton, Hugh Duffy, Van Haltren, Ollie Pickering, Pete Browning, Curt Welch, Dickey Johnson, Mike Griffin

              1900-1940: Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, Eddie Roush, Max Carey, Clyde Milan, Clarence "Ginger" Beaumont, Oscar "Happy" Felsch, Chick Stahl, Johnny Mostil, Benny Kauff, Lloyd Waner.

              1940-1970: Joe DiMaggio, Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, Duke Snider, Richie Ashburn, Pete Reiser, Larry Doby, Jim Piersall, Jim Landis, Bill Virdon, Vada Pinson.

              1970-present: Ken Griffey, Jr., Brett Butler, Andruw Jones, Tori Hunter, Mike Cameron, Jim Edmonds, Mark Kotsay, Dale Murphy, Kirby Puckett, Bernie Williams, and Kenny Lofton.

              Negro Leaguers: Oscar Charleston, "Cool Papa" Bell, Christobal Carlos Torriente, Spot Poles, Pete Hill, Clint "Hawk" Thomas, Chino Smith, Martin Dihigo
              --------------------------------------------------------------------------
              RF -

              Pre-1900: Willie Keeler, Jimmy Fogarty, Sam Thompson, Mike Tiernan, Oyster Burns

              Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Mel Ott, Pete Rose, Tony Gwynn, Reggie Jackson, Roberto Clemente, Paul Waner, Sam Crawford, Al Kaline, Dave Winfield, Harry Heilmann, Tony Oliva, Vlad Guerrero, Gavvy Cravath, Chuck Klein, Harry Hooper, Roger Maris, Dale Murphy, Sammie Sosa, Ross Youngs, Daryl Strawberry.

              Comment


              • #22
                Numbers following represent Bill James' rankings for his Top 100.

                Negro Leagues = Red
                Pre-1900 = Blue

                1. Buck Ewing -
                2. George Sisler -
                3. Pop Lloyd, NL 22
                4. Joe Jackson 52
                5. Jackie Robinson 27
                6. Biz Mackay, NL
                7. Alex Rodriguez ch 36- SS17
                8. Ivan Rodriguez - C13
                9. George Brett 25
                10. Mickey Cochrane 58
                ----------------------
                In my queue:

                11. Roberto Clemente 60
                12. Cap Anson - 1B11
                13. Yogi Berra - 34
                14. Louis "Santop" Loftin, NL -
                15. Hank Greenberg 54
                16. Herman Long - SS34
                17. Hughie Jennings - SS18

                Comment


                • #23
                  Alex Rodriguez
                  John Henry Lloyd
                  Yogi Berra
                  Joe Jackson
                  Jackie Robinson
                  Eddie Mathews
                  Rickey Henderson
                  Charlie Gehringer
                  George Brett
                  Ken Griffey Jr

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by baseballPAP
                    Amazing that the anti-Henderson people manage to continue to leave him off ballots, so that most people are seeing their #2 or #3 guy elected every round because they hold no grudges and vote for everyone who deserves it.
                    People vote for who they "think deserves it," not who "deserves it."

                    Just curious, what "grudges" would people hold against Henderson? I don't think I've ever heard of anything that people would hold over his head...maybe I'm just ignorant about them. I have not voted for Henderson yet simply because I don't have him ranked so high based solely on his play, not on off-field stuff or personality or anything like that. I'm not "anti-Henderson," just more "pro-certain other players."

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by dgarza
                      People vote for who they "think deserves it," not who "deserves it."

                      Just curious, what "grudges" would people hold against Henderson? I don't think I've ever heard of anything that people would hold over his head...maybe I'm just ignorant about them. I have not voted for Henderson yet simply because I don't have him ranked so high based solely on his play, not on off-field stuff or personality or anything like that. I'm not "anti-Henderson," just more "pro-certain other players."
                      I think what BBPAP is saying is how could you possibly say guys like Heilmann and Waner were batter "solely on the field of play" than Henderson? Just a quick stat check on BBRef will show you Henderson was better.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by 538280
                        Just a quick stat check on BBRef will show you Henderson was better.
                        I disagree. I think a more indepth look will sway you one way or another. A quick look will show Henderson not even batting .280.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by dgarza
                          I disagree. I think a more indepth look will sway you one way or another. A quick look will show Henderson not even batting .280.
                          Which makes me wonder how deep a few of us are looking when assessing the totality of a player's accomplishments. Raw batting averages are just a minor part of the story. Henderson actually has a higher relative OBP (over a much longer career) than Heilmann, and would probably have had even a higher raw OBP had he not hung on for those last few years. Henderson's advantages in defense, baserunning, longevity (even not counting those last years), and league quality easily put him over Heilmann.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by dgarza
                            I disagree. I think a more indepth look will sway you one way or another. A quick look will show Henderson not even batting .280.
                            It will also show Heilmann as just a god awful fielder (84 rel. RF, is there anyone worse than that?). Heilmann was an all time great hitter, no question, but he was just so terrible in the field and on the basepaths. Henderson was a very good fielder and an all time great runner (perhaps the best ever). He also played much longer and in a stronger league. Henderson is almost twice as good. He's #16 on my all time list, Heilmann doesn't even make the top 100.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Heilmann isnt in your top 100???

                              you just lost credibility with me on this one

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by blackout805
                                Heilmann isnt in your top 100???

                                you just lost credibility with me on this one
                                He's not in Bill James' top 100 either. Do you have any credibility for him?

                                Heilmann was a barely passable fielder and runner, and his raw hitting stats are big time inflated by the era he played in.

                                Comment

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