Pedro Guerrero?

[DoubleX]

Revealing my age for those who don't know, I was born in 1981, and when I started becoming interested in baseball around the ages of 4 and 5, my father gave me an impression that Pedro Guerrero was at that time, one of the very best in the game. I haven't really thought about it much since then, but I guess it's always been in the back of my head. So going back to the mid 80's, what were peoples impressions of Guerrero at that time? Was he generally regarded as among the best?

[oscargamblesfro]

I recall him being considered then by many fans, writers, etc. as a great hitter, arguably the best overall hitter in the N.L. from the early 80's until about 86- he had high averages, power, and keep in mind he played half of his games in a pitcher's park. He really got his due for the most part, I would tend to think... And yet, even though he played in one of the biggest markets of all, he was still kinda underrated at the same time for some reason or other- maybe because he wasn't very good with the glove, and sometimes not being thought of as a complete player( like parker had pretty much been thought to be a few years before him) can hurt a guy's reputation or standing a bit.. as a hitter at his best he was kinda like...vlad maybe?

[DoubleX]

I recall him being considered then by many fans, writers, etc. as a great hitter, arguably the best overall hitter in the N.L. from the early 80's until about 86- he had high averages, power, and keep in mind he played half of his games in a pitcher's park. He really got his due for the most part, I would tend to think... And yet, even though he played in one of the biggest markets of all, he was still kinda underrated at the same time for some reason or other- maybe because he wasn't very good with the glove, and sometimes not being thought of as a complete player( like parker had pretty much been thought to be a few years before him) can hurt a guy's reputation or standing a bit.. as a hitter at his best he was kinda like...vlad maybe?

From your description, as an overall player Pedro Guerrero sounds like Manny Ramirez. Tremendous all around hitter, but the rest of his game is uninspiring.

[oscargamblesfro]

Kinda like Ramirez as a hitter, yeah, this guy could just flat out hit. As a fielder, well, they tried him at third at one point, and late in his career he played first. Had he played in the A.L. he would probably have been a DH most, if not all, of the time..I made a mistake earlier- he was out for most of '86, and had fine years in especially '87 with L.A., and '89 with St.Louis. I forgot that he hung around till '92. God knows the numbers he'd probably have put up in a hitter's park in Detroit or Fenway instead of the pitcher's park he played in in L.A. Not like Ramirez in that he had speed, and didn't walk as much. He stole over 20 twice, but, although he hit over 30 three times, which was more of a big deal then, he didn't quite have the brute force of a Manny, more like a Vlad or Parker in his prime I'd say.

[baseballPAP]

They guy I keep coming back to is Bobby Bonilla. They even played mostly the same positions....3B, of, some 1b....

[oscargamblesfro]

I'd agree with that comparison, baseball pap, similar in that way. bonilla was a good hitter /atrocious fielder too- except that guerrero was, in my view, clearly better than bonilla.

[KCGHOST]

I don't think Guerrero is near the hitter Manny is, but I suppose someone could torture the numbers to make it seems so. He reminds much much more of Greg Luzinski. They both posted strong numbers from the right side of the plate in a tough era and flamed out in their early 30's. Neither were defensive stalwarts. Bonilla was a switch hitter and a notch below these guys.

[Blackout]

you definetely cant say he's the hitter Manny is though

[64Cards]

I don't have any numbers to back it up, but when he played here, Pete always seemd to be a tough out in clutch situations.

[538280]

Pedro Guerrero was with Mike Schmidt as the best hitter in the National League 1982-1985. He was actually a very similar hitter to Manny, and for a few years I'd say he was just as good. He was also similar to Manny in that he was a sort of absent minded Dominican.

Pedro obviously didn't remain at a high level for long though, and he's not anywhere near as good as Manny Ramirez. But, look at his season in 1985. That year he was a great hitter, in every sense of the term. He hit .320, and it certainly wasn't an empty .320. He also walked 83 times, lifting his OBP all the way up to .422. He hit 33 home runs and 22 doubles, so his power wasn't hurting either. Plus he was playing in Dodger Stadium, and the league OPS at the time was .706. His relative line was 125/130/151. He was great at all three phases of hitting: contact (.320), plate discipline (83 walks that raised his OBP to .422), and power (33 home runs, 22 doubles and .577 SLG%)

[yanks0714]

Pedro Guerrero, for a shot time, was one of the best all around hitters in the NL. He hit for average, HR power, had a very good OBP, solid extra base power, and could run.

I agree that he and Schmidt were two of the best hitters in that time period.

And he did all this playing in a pitcher's park.

The Dodgers moved him all over the field. He played all 3 OF positions, 1B, and 3B....none of them particularly well. He was probably best at 1B or LF to hide his defense. I believe that he was moved around because the Dodgers had 'other' options at various positions and could plug Pedro in at a position gap. A little like what the Cards did with Stan Musial, moving him where they needed help.

If I remember correctly Pedro tore up his knee very badly and that started his downward spiral.

I use him on my all-time Dodger simulated team because of his 'versatility' and as a flat out good hitter.

[Ubiquitous]

The Dodgers thought enough of him to make him the highest paid dodger in history at the time of course. He was also the first Dodger to hit 30+ homers and steal 20 bases in a season. He did that back to back. He held the NL record reaching base consecutively until Bonds came along and broke it. Pedro had a nice little run from 1982 to 1987 (with 1986 being an injury year) where he was one of the most if not the most feared offensive force in the NL.

[johnny]

Pedro and OJ

This is an excerpt from an article called 'The Slugger or Why Power Rules' on the net. :atthepc :atthepc
It puts into perspective how good Pedro was at one point and his post OJ life. Not so good.
Here Goes:

"In 1985 you couldn’t hit in Dodger Stadium. Just couldn’t be done. Singles? Sure. Doubles, triples, homers? Forget it. The foul territory was vast, which meant tepid pop-outs by the bushel. The hitting visuals—the shadows, the hue of the outfield walls in the Los Angeles sun—were brutal, and rumors had persisted since the days of Sandy Koufax that the groundskeepers at Chavez Ravine would illegally heighten the mound when an especially potent offense paid a visit. It just wasn’t the place for a hitter. Unless you were Pedro Guerrero. That season, Guerrero spent time at first base, third base, and the outfield corners, but despite being yanked about the diamond, he put together the best season of what was to be a 15-year career. Guerrero, although playing in one of the toughest environments for hitters in the league, paced the National League in on-base (OBP) and slugging percentage (SLG) and finished second to Willie McGee of the Cardinals for the batting title. At one point during the season, Guerrero reached base in fourteen consecutive plate appearances. He also tied a major league record (held by Babe Ruth, Roger Maris, and Bob Johnson) by hitting 15 homers in the month of June, and his tally of 33 home runs for the season tied the Los Angeles Dodger record set by Steve Garvey in 1977. Away from Dodger Stadium, Guerrero slugged .665, almost 300 points higher than the National League average that season. What Guerrero did was cobble together one of the great power seasons of all time. The Indians originally signed Guerrero in 1973 out of the Dominican Republic as a 17-year-old, slightly built shortstop. However, following Guerrero’s first season as a pro—one in which he managed to hit only two home runs the entire year for the farm club at Sarasota—the Indians, in a stunningly ill-considered deal, traded him to the Dodgers for pitcher Bruce Ellingsen, who would log a grand total of 42 major league innings in his career. Guerrero, meanwhile, began heaping a multitude of abuses upon opposing pitchers. He broke into the majors as a replacement at second base for the injured Davey Lopes, and Guerrero started hitting almost immediately. In ’81 he slugged .762 in the World Series and rang up five RBI in the decisive sixth game. He and third baseman Ron Cey shared Series MVP honors. The following season, Guerrero became the first player in Dodger history to hit 30 home runs and steal 20 bases in the same season. The next year, he turned the trick once again. If not for Guerrero’s maddening penchant for injury, he’d have likely put together a Hall of Fame career. In ’77 he missed most of the Triple-A season with a broken ankle. In ’80 he injured his knee in one of his famously violent slides (he didn’t so much slide as heave himself in the general direction of the bag) and missed the final two months of the season (it was after that injury that manager Tommy Lasorda retrenched Guerrero’s base stealing). In ’84 it was an ailing shoulder. In ’85 it was a sprained wrist, and in ’86 it was a ruptured tendon in his knee. Guerrero came back potently in 1987, slugging .539, walking 74 times, and posting the highest batting average by a Dodger since Tommy Davis in 1962. For his efforts the UPI bestowed upon him the Comeback Player of the Year Award. However, Guerrero once again landed on the DL in ’88, this time with a pinched nerve, and the Dodgers sent him to St. Louis for lefty John Tudor. Guerrero, it turned out, had another season in him. In 1989, for an otherwise inconsequential Cardinals team, he batted .300, led the NL in doubles with 42, and posted the league’s sixth-best OBP. Yet another shoulder injury limited him to 43 games in 1992, and he opted for retirement after the season. He left the game with a career batting line of .300 AVG/.370 OBP/.480 SLG, and 215 home runs.

In retirement, Guerrero met with trouble. On September 29, 1999, he and longtime friend Adan Cruz met with three men at a Miami restaurant to arrange a $200,000 cocaine deal. Unbeknownst to Guerrero, the three men he and Cruz liased with were two informants and one undercover DEA agent. Prosecutors would later argue that Guerrero agreed to guarantee payment for the shipment. One of the informants, who was wearing a wire, told Guerrero that he would deliver “15 little animals” to Cruz and that Guerrero would ensure that Cruz delivered the money. “If he doesn’t show up,” Guerrero allegedly replied, “I’ll take care of that.” The following day, the informant called Guerrero, told him the cocaine was ready, and said, “You’re on the hook if he [Cruz] doesn’t pay.” “Fine, fine, okay,” said Guerrero. “No problem.” The next day, agents delivered the faux coke to Cruz and arrested him at a grocery store near Guerrero’s house. Later that same day, Guerrero and another accomplice were arrested. Guerrero soon posted his $100,000 bond. While out on bail, he met with further controversy. In October, acquitted (wink, wink) murderer and former NFL star O. J. Simpson phoned police in South Florida and told them his girlfriend 26-yearold Christie Prody (who presumably had never performed even a cursory, fact-finding Google search on her new boyfriend) was in the midst of a two-day cocaine bender with Guerrero. “We have a problem here,” Simpson told the 911 operator. “I’m trying to get a girl to go to rehab. . . . She’s been doing drugs for two days with Pedro Guerrero, who just got arrested for cocaine, and I’m trying to get her to leave her house and go into rehab right now.” Police responded to Prody’s house but found only Simpson, who told them Prody had left. Simpson also told police that he and Prody had suffered a “verbal dispute” before she departed. The cops, in what’s surely one of the most hollow gestures in the history of recorded time, gave Simpson a brochure on domestic violence and then left. Simpson would later deny telling police that Prody had been on a coke binge with Guerrero. Instead, Simpson claimed he had been trying to get help for one of Prody’s friends who went by the name “Pinky.” With the Simpson-Prody flap behind him, Guerrero was ready for his trial on drug conspiracy charges. Guerrero’s attorney, Milton Hirsch, mustered a surprising defense by arguing that his client had been an unwitting dupe in the whole thing. The crux of Hirsch’s case was that Guerrero was, in essence, a man-child lacking the faculties to participate meaningfully in such an affair. “He never really understood that he was being asked to involve himself in a drug deal,” Hirsch told the jury. According to the defense, Guerrero’s IQ was a mere 70. Some psychometric specialists say that those testing at an IQ level between 60 and 75 would have significant difficulty in being educated beyond a sixth-to-eighth-grade range. Hirsch said that Guerrero had little functional ability in the real world. To wit, he couldn’t write a check or make his own bed, and he subsisted off a modest allowance given to him by his wife. True or not, after four hours of deliberation, the jury acquitted Guerrero. Still, for all of Guerrero’s foibles, missteps, and frailties, we as fans, in what’s perhaps a frailty of our own, prefer to remember him only as Pedro Guerrero the hitter. And he was that."

[leecemark]

--Pedro was fairly comparible to Manny. Not quite as good a hitter, but much of the difference between their numbers is due more to park and era than talent. Guerro was not a good fielder, but was or less adequete as a corner OF/1B and was athletic enough to get some time at CF and 3B. He was also a much better baserunner than Ramirez. If Guerreo had stayed healthier and lasted longer he would have had a decent Hall of fame case.

[Bluesteve32]

He did a slide into theid and broke his leg or severly messed it up. I still have visions of that play, very much like Thiesmanns leg on MNF. Pedro was a horrible fielder and one year they tried him a third, he did adequate, but his hitting slumped. For a few years, he was an awsome offensive player.