Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

HOF-Totality of the Career-Hodges

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by DoubleX
    Well it's easy to have better longevity when Manager A dies and Manager B does not, wouldn't you say?
    That's like saying Herb Score would have been a better pitcher than Warren Spahn had he not gotten hurt. I certainly feel for Hodges horrible untimely death, but it's not right to add more longevity on to his managerial career because he would have managed longer had he not died.

    Hodges managerial record, for the most part, is saddled with seasons spent with the exansion Senators for 5 seasons, in which the team improved each year that Hodges was at the helm, and then one year with the woeful Mets, before '69 happens. '69 is followed by two more winning seasons, and then Hodges dies before the '73 season.
    They did improve under Hodges every year, but it didn't appear they were going anywhere anyway. THey did much worse once Hodges left. I guess you could say that wouldn't have happened if Hodges was still there, but is there any evidence of that? I don't know.

    IMO, it's not a very fair comparison at all to base this discussion on longevity. To me, the fact that Hodges improved an expansion each year that he was its manager, and then was at the helm when the Mets made history, says a lot about his skills as a manager, and perhaps if his tenure was not unfortunately cut short, this comparison would be moot.
    I have no doubts HOdges was probably a pretty good manager. So was Fregosi. It doesn't make the difference and make him a HOFer. My post was in response to Johnny who basically said it was ridiculous to compare the totatility of Hodges' career to Fregosi's. It was already said by Mark that Fregosi was probably a better player than Hodges, so I just came in to say it's not so clear Hodges was a better manager than Fregosi either.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by 538280
      That's like saying Herb Score would have been a better pitcher than Warren Spahn had he not gotten hurt. I certainly feel for Hodges horrible untimely death, but it's not right to add more longevity on to his managerial career because he would have managed longer had he not died.
      You missed the point here. You said Fregosi had better longevity, more winning seasons and such. Well that had less to do with managerial skill, and more to do with the fact that he had more opportunity. Why did he have more have more opporunity? Because Hodges died. I'm not giving Hodges extra credit for things he didn't do, I'm just putting into perspective how it's unfair to say a manager was better because he had better longevity due to more opportunity. If you want to make a skill argument, that's one thing, but skill has nothing to do with why Fregosi has more longevity than Hodges.

      In fact, a more accurate comparison would be percentage of winning seasons. Hodges was 3/9, while Fregosi was 5/15. So both managers had winning seasons 33.3% of the time. HOWEVER, Hodges actually won a World Series (Fregosi only won a pennant), and Fregosi never had to manage an expansion franchise in the 60s. So Hodges has a number of losing seasons on his record that he, nor any manager for that matter, could do anything about. Such was life with a 60s expansion franchise.

      So in sum, Hodges is the better manager because:

      - He actually won a World Series
      - Proportionally he had just as many winning seasons as Fregosi, which is schewed because...
      - Unlike Fregosi, Hodges managed an expansion franchise in the 60s, in which losing records were inevitable. However, the team actually improved each year Hodges was at the helm, and then had a huge dropoff the year after he left. Coincidence that a team would continually improve and then severely drop after Hodges left (to manage another team that would improve under his watch)? I don't think so.

      We are in agreement about one thing though...Hodges managerial career is not enough to push him into the Hall. Though I wouldn't not object to his being in the Hall as a player (though I am in no rush at all to put him, and am just as ok with him not being in).
      Last edited by DoubleX; 01-23-2006, 10:04 AM.

      Comment


      • #18
        --Hodges may well have been a better manager than Fregosi. That doesn't make him a Hall of Fame manager, or anything close to it. Fregosi WAS a better player than Hodges though. Oddly that is masked by his playing his best years for a 60s expansion team - the same disadvantage Hodges had as a manager.
        --Hodges is more famous than Fregosi for reasons that have little to do with their relative merits. He was a good (although never close to the best) player on a winning NYC team. Which, not coincidentally, was the last (and much sentimentalized) generation of Brooklyn Dodgers. He also won his lone pennant in NYC.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by leecemark
          --Hodges is more famous than Fregosi for reasons that have little to do with their relative merits. He was a good (although never close to the best) player on a winning NYC team. Which, not coincidentally, was the last (and much sentimentalized) generation of Brooklyn Dodgers. He also won his lone pennant in NYC.
          Are you saying that there is a New York bias at play here?

          Comment


          • #20
            Just to be clear, I don't think that even had Fregosi won the 1993 World Series he'd be a HOFer and I don't think that even with the 1969 crown, Hodges does either. They were both darned good players, and probably both were above average managers.

            Jim Albright
            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by 538280
              Hodges was a good, but not HOF caliber, player. Mark is right that other than that 1969 World Series with the Mets Hodges never did a thing as a manager. That team was certainly a big surprise (probably the biggest ever this side of the 1914 Braves), but that was more a flukey performance than something Hodges can be given lots of credit for. What basically happened for the Mets that year is three young pitchers matured (Seaver, Koosman, Gentry), every other one of their pitchers did just a little better, and two okay players had career years (Cleon Jones and Tommy Agee).

              Plus, they got really lucky (overperformed Pyth. by 8 games). The success of the 1969 Mets is not put squarely on the shoulders of Gil Hodges, in fact he probably had little to do with the team's success. I'm willing to give him some credit for that but not enough to put his below HOF level career to HOF level.
              Truth is that the Mets maybe shouldn't even have been in the Playoffs. Leo Durocher burned out his players on the Cubbies, created an argumentive and split squad environment with cliques, and did a lousy darn job of managing. The Cubs had a better team but they folded and the Mets overtook them. I always felt the Cubs lost the Division more than the Mets won it.
              Then, in the first ever playoffs the Mets beat a better Braves team.
              Of course, in the WS they beat what many thought was an unbeatable Orioles team.
              How much credit did Gil Hodges deserve? Probably some. But overall he was pretty much an unsuccessful Manager in MLB.
              And, no, he doesn't deserve the HOF. He was a good player but not great or even very good. He was only about the 5th best player on those great Brooklyn teams. They could have survived losing Hodges more than they could have survivied losing Snider, Reese, Robinson, Campanella, or Newcombe. Maybe even Furillo, Roe, and Cox.

              Yankees Fan Since 1957

              Comment

              Ad Widget

              Collapse
              Working...
              X