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**KCGHOST** · 01-25-2006, 12:22 PM

Mark McGwire 4002/.268/405/956/.411/.615/1.025

Jeff Bagwell 4759/.304/263/961/.416/.545/.961

**538280** · 01-25-2006, 04:17 PM

Mike Piazza definitely should be on this poll. Given a positional adjustment, he may just be the man.

And where is Jeff Bagwell? He is the guy that immediately I thought of when I saw the thread title.

**dl4060** · 01-25-2006, 04:33 PM

Bagwell, Piazza and Mcgwire should definitely be added.

**Myankee4life** · 01-25-2006, 04:35 PM

How do you say Bagwell when Griffey had more HR's and RBI's and had a higher SLG% and OPS.

**antihipster** · 01-25-2006, 10:04 PM

I voted other. No A-Rod, and no McGwire.

**dl4060** · 01-25-2006, 10:08 PM

Not including Bagwell on that list is a joke. For most of the decade he played in the astrodome which was not a hitter's park at all. I am not sure if I think he was the best hitter of the 90's, but he may have been. Certainley better than Bernie Williams or Mo Vaughn or Tony Gwynn.

**538280** · 01-26-2006, 04:31 AM

Originally posted by Myankee4life

How do you say Bagwell when Griffey had more HR's and RBI's and had a higher SLG% and OPS.

Bagwell played in the Astrodome for most of the decade and his OBP was much better than Griffey. OPS is often flawed because it will always value SLG more than OBP. Bagwell was the better hitter.

**Myankee4life** · 01-26-2006, 11:40 AM

Originally posted by antihipster

I voted other. No A-Rod, and no McGwire.

A-rod did not even have 3000 AB in the decade and still would'nt have been the best. As far as Mcgwire his BA is too low, but he should be included.

**Dontworry** · 01-26-2006, 02:28 PM

Bagwell is My Pick. He was the best player in the league in 94 and 97. He also had 4 seasons with a 1.000+ OPS, and did 30/30 a few times. He also was 4th in the 90's in winshares.

**csh19792001** · 01-26-2006, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by Dontworry

Bagwell is My Pick. He was the best player in the league in 94 and 97. He also had 4 seasons with a 1.000+ OPS, and did 30/30 a few times. He also was 4th in the 90's in winshares.

Who were the top 5 in Win Shares during the 90's (and with how many)? How about on a seasonal (on per game) basis, to equate for differences in games played?

In any case... perhaps I should retract my ballot. Then again, there is the positional adjustment.

I'm inclined to vote for Bagwell, upon further inspection. He hit for a better average, was on base much more. Griffey did have 135 more homeruns during the 90's (Grif almost hit 400 homeruns in one decade, which is sick), but that was in 1,100 more at bats than Bagwell. Grif was on better offensive teams and played in better parks for producing runs than Bagwell.

For what it's worth:

Griffey

Code:

TEAM         AGE G    AB    R    H    2B  3B  HR   HR%   RBI  BB   SO   SB   CS  AVG   SLG  OBA   OPS
TOTALS          1408  5377 1002 1622 297  30 382   7.10 1091  703  901  151  53  .302  .581  .384  .965
LG AVERAGE            5077  715 1362 258  28 149   2.93  677  523  880  101  49  .268  .418  .339  .756 
[B]POS AVERAGE[/B]           5084  790 1380 241  47 126   2.48  601  501  893  220  84  [B].272  .412  .339  .751[/B]

Bagwell

Code:

TEAM         AGE G    AB    R    H    2B  3B  HR   HR%   RBI  BB   SO   SB   CS  AVG   SLG  OBA   OPS
TOTALS          1317  4759  921 1447 314  21 263   5.53  961  885  906  158  58  .304  .545  .416  .961 
LG AVERAGE            4582  626 1229 229  30 128   2.80  589  460  804  109  49  .268  .415  .338  .753
[B]POS AVERAGE[/B]           4672  659 1304 257  21 171   3.66  737  530  820   60  32  [B].279  .453  .354  .807[/B]

What Griffey did in light of the fact that he was playing the most important outfield position, and playing it beautifully, pushes him over the top here.

**Dontworry** · 01-26-2006, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by csh19792001

Who were the top 5 in Win Shares during the 90's (and with how many)? How about on a seasonal (on per game) basis, to equate for differences in games played?

In any case... perhaps I should retract my ballot. Then again, there is the positional adjustment.

I'm inclined to vote for Bagwell, upon further inspection. He hit for a better average, was on base much more. Griffey did have 135 more homeruns during the 90's (Grif almost hit 400 homeruns in one decade, which is sick), but that was in 1,100 more at bats than Bagwell. Grif was on better offensive teams and played in better parks for producing runs than Bagwell.

For what it's worth:

Griffey

Code:

TEAM         AGE G    AB    R    H    2B  3B  HR   HR%   RBI  BB   SO   SB   CS  AVG   SLG  OBA   OPS
TOTALS          1408  5377 1002 1622 297  30 382   7.10 1091  703  901  151  53  .302  .581  .384  .965
LG AVERAGE            5077  715 1362 258  28 149   2.93  677  523  880  101  49  .268  .418  .339  .756 
[B]POS AVERAGE[/B]           5084  790 1380 241  47 126   2.48  601  501  893  220  84  [B].272  .412  .339  .751[/B]

Bagwell

Code:

TEAM         AGE G    AB    R    H    2B  3B  HR   HR%   RBI  BB   SO   SB   CS  AVG   SLG  OBA   OPS
TOTALS          1317  4759  921 1447 314  21 263   5.53  961  885  906  158  58  .304  .545  .416  .961 
LG AVERAGE            4582  626 1229 229  30 128   2.80  589  460  804  109  49  .268  .415  .338  .753
[B]POS AVERAGE[/B]           4672  659 1304 257  21 171   3.66  737  530  820   60  32  [B].279  .453  .354  .807[/B]

What Griffey did in light of the fact that he was playing the most important outfield position, and playing it beautifully, pushes him over the top here.

(Win Shares in the 1990s)

Bonds - 351
Biggio - 287
Thomas - 273
Bagwell - 263
Griffey - 261

(Best player according to winshares in the entire majors Year By year)

Rickey - 1990
Bonds - 91, 92, 93, 95
Bagwell - 94, 96
Thomas - 97
Mcgwire - 98
Jeter - 99

What hurts Griffey as far as win shares is concerned was his injuries. He missed parts of the 92,95,96 seasons, if he had played a full schedule those years he would clearly be second to Bonds.

Basically, going by pretty much all stats, griffey was never the best player in the league in his career.

Never led his league in OPS, obp, rc, BRAA, etc, you get the picture.

" What Griffey did in light of the fact that he was playing the most important outfield position, and playing it beautifully, pushes him over the top here. "

Griffey's glove is overrated. He was good early on, but has dropped alot. His career FRAA (Fielding Runs Above Average) is -18.

Infact, Griffey has been under average since 99. He's vastly overrated in the field.

Also, According to WS, Griffey had the 29th, 47th, 59th, 60th, 70th, 87th, 98th, 110th, 135th, and 176th best defensive seasons by a CF in the 1990's.

**csh19792001** · 01-26-2006, 03:53 PM

What I meant to say was that Griffey was playing a much more defensively important (and valuable) position than Bagwell was. To me, this is important when looking at offensive production in context.

PS- As (and others) have opined here, I don't trust fielding metrics as yet (in general), unless they all concur as to a player's fielding prowess.

**538280** · 01-26-2006, 06:21 PM

If you're placing a big emphasis on positional adjustment, I could see Piazza being a viable choice here. The only thing that brings him down is a late start (career began in 1992, first full season 1993). Piazza was really a monster hitter for any position, never mind catcher. Look at him in 1997. He was at least 100 ponts above league average in BA, OBP, and SLG. His total relative line was 139/130/156, from catcher and in Dodger Stadium!

He wasn't just a high walk, high strikeout prototypical slugger either. He did strike out his share of times, but he never has struck out 100 times in a season, which is quite an accomplishment for a modern slugger. He was no slouch with BA either. He hit over .300 9 times and his relative BA is 118. He was a complete hitter who could slug, walk, and contact hit. Plus he was a catcher. The more I look at it, the better his case looks.

**leecemark** · 01-26-2006, 06:30 PM

--The question being asked in this thread is simply "best hitter". For me that takes positional adjustments out of the equation. For everyone it should clearly take defensive skill (or even baserunning) out of it. Piazza was the biggest offensive force, not even excepting Bonds and Thomas, because he so outstripped every other team's catcher in putting runs on the board for his team.

Albert Belle	13.51%	5 votes
Juan Gonzalez	0.00%	0 votes
Ken Griffey Jr	56.76%	21 votes
Manny Ramirez	2.70%	1 vote
Jim Thome	0.00%	0 votes
Mo Vaughn	0.00%	0 votes
Edgar Martinez	5.41%	2 votes
Tony Gwynn	5.41%	2 votes
Bernie Williams	0.00%	0 votes
Other	16.22%	6 votes

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Best hitter of the 90's not named Thomas or Bonds?

Best hitter of the 90's not named Thomas or Bonds?

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